Marka Ragnos vs DN Luke and DE Sidious

Originally posted by Storm Kensho
I have no proof of that. Then again, if it can work on the Force-resistant Vong, then it'll prolly work on a Force-user. I dunno whether it'll work or not, we'll just have to wait and see.

Of course you have no proof, which is why I called you out on it to prove your bullshit. Maybe in four hundred years when Luke uses his Emerald Lightning in Star Wars: Episode MMDCCLI on a Force user, then yes it will be certified -- until then, there's no proof.

However, it seems you haven't countered my argument that Sidious > Ragnos.

Why the hell do I need to counter it? All you did was make a false claim, and I sent out to correct it. I wasn't debating the subject, merely pointing out your BS claim.

Then again, Ragnos didn't have a Force Storm that could destroy star fleets. So Sidious > Ragnos.

Then again Ragnos' sceptor was able to raise temples, and suck the Force out of planets ya-da-ya-da. So, Ragnos > Sidious. See how that does, or rather, doesn't work.

I'm glad your arguement consists of nothing but "Sidious can do X z0mg and Ragnos cant!!! L0lZ L3ath3rf4ce > R4gn0s!!//?!!!q1111".

Look, I can do the same thing:

"z0mgbbqwtf R4gn0s d1dnt GeT BeaTed bye M4C3 H1NDU s0 M4rka R4Gd0ll IS > th3n PALP!!!!!!!!///111"

Sorry, kid, it just doesn't work like that. I didn't see Luke blowing up entire star fleets with a Force storm, yet he managed to slice Sidious' hand off.

If you'll BS about Luke's inferiority, then think of this. DE Sidious > Ragnos. DN Luke > DE Sidious. So, all in all, Luke > Ragnos. FAce it, Luke's the most pwoerful Force-user the glalaxy has even seen.

Why would I think of it like that? Especially coming from your mouth when you just made a claim, tried to defend it after I called you out on proof, then admit you had no proof and were primarily pulling things out of your ass.

Did Ragnos have a technique that could kill ANY opponent in one shot? No. Luke does.

Did Ragnos have a Force Storm that could destroy star fleets? Uh no. Sidious did.

Answering that question with a "No" is simply biased.

Is it certain? No, but then nothing is. Is it possible or even plausible? Indeed. There are various attacks that can be qualified as "instakill" that's derived from the ancient Sith, so why wouldn't their most powerful have wind of that? Especially if he has a scepter that is one of the more powerful weapons in the galaxy.

Well, has there been a powerful enough Force-user who can compare to Luke yet? No. Until then, Emerald Lightning and Sidious' Force Storm alone make Ragnos fodder to the both of them.

By this logic, Naga Sadow would pwn both of them because a single amulet blast = 2 liquidized bodies.

Silly logic.

Originally posted by Storm Kensho
I have no proof of that. Then again, if it can work on the Force-resistant Vong, then it'll prolly work on a Force-user. I dunno whether it'll work or not, we'll just have to wait and see.

However, it seems you haven't countered my argument that Sidious > Ragnos. Then again, Ragnos didn't have a Force Storm that could destroy star fleets. So Sidious > Ragnos.

If you'll BS about Luke's inferiority, then think of this. DE Sidious > Ragnos. DN Luke > DE Sidious. So, all in all, Luke > Ragnos. FAce it, Luke's the most pwoerful Force-user the glalaxy has even seen.

1) Contradicted yourself, and an illogical assumption

2) You had no argument, your reasoning equals that of a 6 year old - Someone can do X and Someone can't therefore the one that cant loses.

3) Why do you assume that any of us agree with your petty assumption of DE Sidious > Ragnos, come back when you have proof. "Lukes the most powerful" wow pulling statements out of your ass? Point out where does it state Luke even remotely comes close to being the Most Powerful of the Most Powerful.

Honestly, none of the Sidious/Luke Fanboys can make a proper argument with the exception of Lightsnake.

We can't just assume that Ragnos would win. These threads are silly. Luke and Sidious have shown us more impressive use of the force. Hell Ragnos hasn't even shown us any use other than being a spirit. Until we have a proper gauge, the 2 win.

Yes... Absence of proof is proof of absence. Go team logic... or not.

Well, after long thought and discussion, I've discovered that Lightsnake has no f***ing idea what he is talking about.

Anyway, I can see the same thing happening that Traya described.

You know...go to the SW comics site Sorgo provides, go to Dark Empire and to the last issue...or open Dark Empire or the Dark Empire sourcebook or the Dark Side sourcebook...I posted the quote from DE's 'book of anger.'

And by sheer economic principles, the end results matter: ragnos has not been shown to do what Luke and Sids have done and has done nothing to truly impact the galaxy besides...die. His expressions of power are less than Sidious's and Luke's, but somehow he's so godly.

I checked on TUF and I'll gladly type it all out with page numbers:
Jacen becomes one with the Force, and Emerald lightning kills the slayer it's used on when Luke uses it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Answering that question with a "No" is simply biased.

Is it certain? No, but then nothing is. Is it possible or even plausible? Indeed. There are various attacks that can be qualified as "instakill" that's derived from the ancient Sith, so why wouldn't their most powerful have wind of that? Especially if he has a scepter that is one of the more powerful weapons in the galaxy.

By this logic, Naga Sadow would pwn both of them because a single amulet blast = 2 liquidized bodies.

Silly logic.

What instakills from the ancient Sith? We know Palp has a great many, as described in DE and the book of anger, but it's also said there he 'invents new ones (Techniques) at his pleasure."" ...and Ragnos's sceptre was destroyed very easily. Sith artifacts, powerful as they may be, are dated, and they've been destroyed before, with blade or by force.

And Naga wasn't using that amulet on Ludo, let alone the idea that he could raise his arm to get it done before Sidious shuts his body down with morichro, that Sadow's amulet attack is unblockable and undodgeable...we've only ever seen it used on three unarmed massassi, an unsentient creature and Nadd's spirit when Kun caught him off guard

Theres no way Ragnos could beat these two..

Luke and Sidious destroy him.

I don't see anyone surviving the full magnitude force storm directed at them.

I'm curious as to how Luke diverted/survived/deflected it, or whatever.

I would check myself had swcomics not been down.

Luke, Leia and Anakin Solo-unborn- joined together, directed the full power of the lightside at Palp to save him from the darkness, exposing him to the purest light...it caused him to lose control

If that's the case, then Ragnos would not be able to replicate the technique (as far as we know).

You can't fight ultimate darkness with darkness, as much was stated

This thread should be closed because Marka Ragnos is an unknown who everyone says is god, althoguh thats bullshit considering R2 is the only god. So their talkign out of there asses.

Originally posted by Storm Kensho
Then again, Ragnos didn't have a Force Storm that could destroy star fleets. So Sidious > Ragnos.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What instakills from the ancient Sith? We know Palp has a great many, as described in DE and the book of anger, but it's also said there he 'invents new ones (Techniques) at his pleasure."" ...and Ragnos's sceptre was destroyed very easily. Sith artifacts, powerful as they may be, are dated, and they've been destroyed before, with blade or by force.

And Naga wasn't using that amulet on Ludo, let alone the idea that he could raise his arm to get it done before Sidious shuts his body down with morichro, that Sadow's amulet attack is unblockable and undodgeable...we've only ever seen it used on three unarmed massassi, an unsentient creature and Nadd's spirit when Kun caught him off guard

Traya defines her ability as being derived from the ancient Sith, so is Nihilus'. Again, if someone's body is vaporized by an amulet, that's a pretty instant kill. Exar killed Odan in one-panel, he learned, presumably, from either Freedon Nadd or Sadow's notes, both of which has knowledge of the Ancient Sith.

Again, simply saying "No" when there is evidence and a premise to believe otherwise is displaying bias, whether or not you like it or not.

You can't call out lack of evidence as your evidence, and then go hide behind your choice quotes and irrelevant feats, sorry.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Traya defines her ability as being derived from the ancient Sith, so is Nihilus'. Again, if someone's body is vaporized by an amulet, that's a pretty instant kill. Exar killed Odan in one-panel, he learned, presumably, from either Freedon Nadd or Sadow's notes, both of which has knowledge of the Ancient Sith.

Again, simply saying "No" when there is evidence and a premise to believe otherwise is displaying bias, whether or not you like it or not.

You can't call out lack of evidence as your evidence, and then go hide behind your choice quotes and irrelevant feats, sorry.

Palp knew that force drain ability as well, plus, I wouldn't call it specifically and completely instakill. It could probably be tailored to how the user wants. (Nihilius, after all, drains the Ravager's crew perpetually)

And Exar is wearing his gauntlet in that panel, why is crushing someone with your power automatically part of the ancient Sith's repetoire?

And we saw Kun use that amulet on three Massassi and a giant wyrm who didn't disintegrate...I'm not sure if those massassi were vaporized or charred beyond recognition. Hell, we never saw Kun blast at someone again. Do we know it's unblockable? Do we know it can't be dodged/countered? We know Sith artifacts and weaponry can be destroyed with saber or force easily from a powerful, experienced masterl...do we even know Kun could use it the same way again? It was all he could to direct the things at first. He also punched into Nadd rather than blasted him.

And draining worlds, killing from a distance with anger alone, shattering space's very fabric and stopping or crushing an enemy's heart with the force alone is 'irrelevant?'

Palp knew that force drain ability as well, plus, I wouldn't call it specifically and completely instakill. It could probably be tailored to how the user wants. (Nihilius, after all, drains the Ravager's crew perpetually)

Three Jedi Masters would disagree with you.

And Exar is wearing his gauntlet in that panel, why is crushing someone with your power automatically part of the ancient Sith's repetoire?

Is he going into the fight naked? If I put NJO Luke in a fight, do I assume he has a lightsaber? Why would this be any different?

And we saw Kun use that amulet on three Massassi and a giant wyrm who didn't disintegrate...I'm not sure if those massassi were vaporized or charred beyond recognition. Hell, we never saw Kun blast at someone again. Do we know it's unblockable? Do we know it can't be dodged/countered?

It didn't disintegrate the beasts? The beam tore huge chunks clear out of the beast. It's obvious that if the beam was any bigger, the entire wyrm would have been gone. It's hard to disintegrate something larger than the blast itself.

As for how do we know it's unblockable? We know it went through everything on panel. So it's up to your side to bring in proof for the other. You asking me to prove a negative is folly.

We know Sith artifacts and weaponry can be destroyed with saber or force easily from a powerful, experienced masterl

Really? Which artifacts are easily destroyed? Ragnos' scepter survived a lightsaber duel between two force-users, and then it survived a duel with just its sith sword. It was later destroyed, but that was never depicted on panel.

So Ragnos' 5000 year old scepter was durable enough to withstand a lightsaber. So by this logic, a sith artifact is more durable than a lightsaber hilt, which will be destroyed by a lightsaber hit.

do we even know Kun could use it the same way again? It was all he could to direct the things at first. He also punched into Nadd rather than blasted him.

And canonically the amulet activated again. What other situation did Kun need to use it?

And draining worlds, killing from a distance with anger alone, shattering space's very fabric and stopping or crushing an enemy's heart with the force alone is 'irrelevant?'

He never shattered space's very fabric while dueling with Luke, when Luke lopped off his hand. He drained a world prior to performing the other feats, so again, that's like me saying Ragnos' scepter has the power of several worlds and such. A different modifier. Crushing an enemy's heart? When did he do that against a skilled force user? If he can't pull it off in the context of the battle, it is irrelevant, like it or not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palp knew that force drain ability as well, plus, I wouldn't call it specifically and completely instakill. It could probably be tailored to how the user wants. (Nihilius, after all, drains the Ravager's crew perpetually)

Yes it can be tailored to how the user wants. And if the user wants "instakill" it's an "instakill". Easy to understand.

And Exar is wearing his gauntlet in that panel, why is crushing someone with your power automatically part of the ancient Sith's repetoire?

Because all Exar had and knew was coming from the Ancient Sith including his gauntlet ? So if Kun can crush a force user with his force power the more powerful ancient Sith could most likely do the same thing.

And we saw Kun use that amulet on three Massassi and a giant wyrm who didn't disintegrate...I'm not sure if those massassi were vaporized or charred beyond recognition. Hell, we never saw Kun blast at someone again. Do we know it's unblockable? Do we know it can't be dodged/countered? We know Sith artifacts and weaponry can be destroyed with saber or force easily from a powerful, experienced masterl...do we even know Kun could use it the same way again? It was all he could to direct the things at first. He also punched into Nadd rather than blasted him.

Man. What do you want ? We also don't know if Luke's attacks can be blocked, same with Sidious his attacks. It works in both directions. And yes - ancient Sith artifacts can be destroyed - but not while being used by ancient Sith. If you want to start like this: We have seen Sidious destroying Leia's lightsaber in DE - does that mean every fight here turns into a fist fight after 3 seconds now ? Because in this case Ragnos has this easily...

And draining worlds, killing from a distance with anger alone, shattering space's very fabric and stopping or crushing an enemy's heart with the force alone is 'irrelevant?'

If creating solar flares easily, creating entire illusionary armies throwing entire fleets arround and rip almost anything apart with some Sith alchemy tools is irrelevant (to you) then anything Sidious did is vice versa.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Three Jedi Masters would disagree with you.

Is he going into the fight naked? If I put NJO Luke in a fight, do I assume he has a lightsaber? Why would this be any different?

It didn't disintegrate the beasts? The beam tore huge chunks clear out of the beast. It's obvious that if the beam was any bigger, the entire wyrm would have been gone. It's hard to disintegrate something larger than the blast itself.

As for how do we know it's unblockable? We know it went through everything on panel. So it's up to your side to bring in proof for the other. You asking me to prove a negative is folly.

Really? Which artifacts are easily destroyed? Ragnos' scepter survived a lightsaber duel between two force-users, and then it survived a duel with just its sith sword. It was later destroyed, but that was never depicted on panel.

So Ragnos' 5000 year old scepter was durable enough to withstand a lightsaber. So by this logic, a sith artifact is more durable than a lightsaber hilt, which will be destroyed by a lightsaber hit.

And canonically the amulet activated again. What other situation did Kun need to use it?

He never shattered space's very fabric while dueling with Luke, when Luke lopped off his hand. He drained a world prior to performing the other feats, so again, that's like me saying Ragnos' scepter has the power of several worlds and such. A different modifier. Crushing an enemy's heart? When did he do that against a skilled force user? If he can't pull it off in the context of the battle, it [b]is irrelevant, like it or not. [/B]

And I'm sure Visas, Sion and Nihilius's crew would agree with me. Traya wanted to kill those three. Palpatine drained Byss and left the inhabitants alive.

Oh, come on...does Exar use it against an armed, sentient force user? So, it went through everything on panel, we've seen At AT blasts do the same thing and Luke deflected those with ease.

You saying Kun used a technique from the ancient Sith on ODan is conjecture. Pure and simple, that was my point.

Sith artifacts Luke destroys against everal dark siders, Boba Fett destroys several artifacts in some of his one shots, The Rogue Squadron destroyed several artifacts in Requiem for a rogue with blaster shots...and when Ragnos sceptre was hit by a saber it exploded. It was never canonically struck by a saber except in gameplay.

The amulet may've helped Kun when he was cornered at Yavin.

And no, Palpatine activated the force Storm AFTER he and Luke fought and Luke's power was described as incredibly powerful. And what 'worlds' did Ragnos's sceptre drain? Or was it certain sites? And Palpatine wrote of crushing an enemy in the book of anger and apparently it's how Palp killed Arden Lyn and threatened to do to Sedriss...and yeah, he can pull it off in the context of battle. In fact, can Kun use his amulets in battle? He never does so when he duels Ulic or Vodo. Not to mention he has been shown to use Malacia and Morichro in battle, against Luke.