Marka Ragnos vs DN Luke and DE Sidious

Sidious could control the size of his storms, used Morichro and Malacia in direct combat...and while we're at it, where's the Ancient Sith's power in context and in battle? We've seen Palp focus a force storm on one person to transport him...what stars will Marka be destroying, how is THAT relevant?

And here's the double standard: Sidious is directly stated to know ALL of the techniques, yet even the vaguest quote on the Ancient Sith is gospel over the guy who's mastered the use of any offensive technique?Marka being the strongest Sith Lord is conclusive now?
Now, seriously...what the hell are you on about? Sidious couldn't apply Sith and Jedi attacks he knew DESIGNED for defeating opponents? Twisted logic...but now it's your turn: Prove the Ancient Sith's power could be turned on their enemies? We've seen Sidious center a force storm, we've seen him fry people with lightning, use Malacia and Morichro, we know he can drain people of the force and their lives, we know he can freeze people and block himself from their minds even when they're standing right in front of him....wealso know the emanations of his power from a duel-not even directed at anyone- can cause people to drop down dead

Ragnos hands down.

Lol..funny how once sentence from tdtd automatically pwns Lightsnake

LOL

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dark side sourcebook, DE Sourcebook.

Since when do RPG sourcebooks do pocess a "narration" ? There isn't a single source were Sidious instakills a force user. In fact he didn't manage to kill Brand and Vader instantly with Force Lightning - both wearing life support suits which are vunerable against force lightning. How would he be able to kill another force user ?

So, do you sneeze every time you look in the mirror? Seriously, if you're getting this worked up over the internet..

I'm a cynic. I never get "worked up" over something especially not over the internet and much less over people I don't even know.

Because a spirit is all we have of Ragnos, the king of conjecture....Ragnos in living flesh with his weapons, empowered by the energy of the staff in his own turf bolstered by the dark side.

Obviously you entirely miss some points.
You take Kreia's comment that he plotted the other Sith against each other for thruth but then ignore her saying that Ragnos pocessed "tremendous physical strengths and a frightening grasp of the Dark Side". She also say that in a fight the Ancient Sith would make people from her time "look like children".

So wait a second. This female Sith Lord, who did pocess enough force powers and knowledge to kill 3 Jedi Council members with a single force attack and has studied Sith history for years on Malachor V ("a storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge"😉 apparently had a reason to think that the ancient Sith as a group would make people from her time (Nihilus, Sion, herself, the Exile - possible Revan, Malak and maybe even Kun) "look like children" and she descripes the power of Ragnos as "frightening". Did you ever see a Sith using such words to descripe Sidious ? I didn't. In fact the only situation I remember a Sith having thoughts like this is Dooku thinking about a Dark Side Yoda - and those thoughts included Sidious being owned by a Dark Side Yoda.

Rise of Vader, ROTS novelization. Palpatine surpassed Plageuis. Ok, then.

I didn't see Sidious surpassing Plageuis in one of those sources. In fact this would be pretty dumb. Sidious himself said that Plageuis pocessed knowledge to manipulate midi-chlorians and therefore could create life. Why would Sidious use clone bodies or try to take over Anakin Solo's body when he had knowledge needed to create a new body for himself using the force ?

And sorry to say that. But in DLotS you have Nadd talking about using Sadow's knowledge to create an entire new body for him and in JK:JA Ragnos sceptre is attributed with the ability to resurrect (aka creating a full functioning and living being) Ragnos. If Sidious could do anything like that he would have done it but apparently he didn't and instead relied on technology.

Vader's in his personal chambers when he kills Ozzle-the meditation thing? And then he puts Piett in charge...what was Piett admiral of? Survery says...Executor!

Yes, sorry. You are right. It's been a while since I've seen ESB so I somehow had in my mind that both of them were on another ship (in the asteroid field) and Vader was away in order to talk to Sidious. My mistake.

Using an electrical weapon on his own ship and tactics! That so equates to Naga's power, especially when he was only doing that to get awy when if he had a force storm, he'd have wiped out the Tetan fleet!

Why you keep referring to the ship when I was talking about Sadow's amulets and Ragnos sceptre ? Those devices are clearly not "electrical" weapons but just working with force power. And we've seen them tearing stuff away when used by less powerful beings. In case of Ragnos sceptre we've even seen this thing draining force energy from places, equip non-force users with force powers on Jedi Knight level and apparently it did have the ability to resurrect a person that was dead for 5,000 years - all in the hands of a minor force user.

And yes. Naga didn't use a force storm to stop the Tetan's. Maybe because it's not really controlable by a single person (as Sidious suggests himself in the Book of Anger) or maybe because it wasn't effective in the situation. But the Ancient Sith must have known it since it is mentioned in the TOTJ sourcebook as well as the Sith in "Jedi vs. Sith" say that this is an ancient technique (remember that they had their Dark Side knowledge coming from a Sith holocron stolen from the Jedi temple).

In the same way I could ask you why Sidious didn't use all kinds of instakill abilities (that he knew) when he had to instakill somebody. He could have survived in ROTJ instantly killing Vader. He could have instakilled Mace, Yoda, Fisto, Kolar, Teen. Instead he got nearly tooled twice by Yoda and Mace. He could have killed anybody in DE when needed. But instead he relied on "not instantly killing" force techniques which lead to his death several times and to his final defeat. Reason ? I don't see any except the plot - and even this could have been designed otherwise if wished.

Except we've seen Palp instantly kill people, it's been stated he can and Palp has used force storms...Ragnos hasn't. Try again.

Where did we see Palp instantly killing force users ? Name them. Give me the source. Ragnos hasn't instakilled people, right. Kreia did that with 3 Jedi Council members and she descripes Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening". So why not suggest that Ragnos can do that too ?
On the other hand: Why should we suggest that Sidious can use instakill attacks especially against other force user when he never did that in any actual source ?

You call me a fanboy, but you hanging onto Ragnos and the Ancient Sith, who only do something so godly with an electrical weapon, but you can throw out insults when someone can actually argue and present evidence?

Oh wait. Where did we see the electical weapons when Sadow did fight Kressh and they keep putting their swords through massive stone walls ? Were did we see the electical weapon that helped Sadow to put his sword through a stone table ? Where did we see the electical weapon when Kressh shattered his metal sword with bare hands ? Where was the electrical device helping Nihilus draining planets or Kreia instakilling 3 Jedi Council Members ? I didn't see any electrical weapons there. What I see is Sadow labelling a blaster (electrical weapon) "primitive" in GAotS.

And even if Sadow used an electrical weapon able to destroy entire star systems and cause supernovas: The fact that the Ancient Sith did have something like that 5,000 years before anyone else developed something coming close to it (Death Star, Sun Crusher) is pretty impressive.

Seriously. Destroying? Trying to argue with the sources now? Arguing with exact quotes that say Palp did what he did and knew what knew?
Try again....and for the record, shut up with the fanboy BS. Me defending a character's strength doesn't equate to fanboyism

I call you a fanboy because you exeggerate Sidious abilities.

If he knew anything and was above the Ancient Sith why do we see him running to the ancient Sith and asking for help even in DE times ?
It's illogical. The same way it's illogical to assume that somebody who could write down his entire knowledge in three books pocessed more knowledge than people who did need entire planets (Malachor V) to archievate their knowledge.
Why should anybody believe that somebody has more force powers than people who were the offspring of interbreeding force users over generations ? Why should anybody believe that somebody can amass more knowledge in 98 years than other people could in the matter of centuries ?
Why should anybody believe that Sidious could kill persons that lived in constant struggle for power and survived using force attacks that were known to said people ? Why should we believe that he can defeat them in a fight when we saw them shattering metal and hammering through walls with their weapons ?

I told you once and I will tell you again: Sidious philosophy is to avoid fights, to manipulate, to act behind the scenes while the ancients entire philosophy is based on using violence, conquer and cause death and destruction. I would willfully admit that Sidious could outsmart most of the ancients in politics or deception but in a fight in which only physical strength and force powers matter against people whos entire life was a constant fight to gain power against other force users ? I really don't see him winning this - especially not after I have seen Luke defeating him in a lightsaber fight in DE when Luke later did have some serious problems with the spirit of Exar Kun and after this suggests that it needs the combined power of all Jedi to try and stop Ragnos. It just doesn't make sense.

Excellent post.

Damn.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Damn.

Huh ?!

That was an uber response.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when do RPG sourcebooks do pocess a "narration" ? There isn't a single source were Sidious instakills a force user. In fact he didn't manage to kill Brand and Vader instantly with Force Lightning - both wearing life support suits which are vunerable against force lightning. How would he be able to kill another force user ?

I'm a cynic. I never get "worked up" over something especially not over the internet and much less over people I don't even know.

Obviously you entirely miss some points.
You take Kreia's comment that he plotted the other Sith against each other for thruth but then ignore her saying that Ragnos pocessed "tremendous physical strengths and a frightening grasp of the Dark Side". She also say that in a fight the Ancient Sith would make people from her time "look like children".

So wait a second. This female Sith Lord, who did pocess enough force powers and knowledge to kill 3 Jedi Council members with a single force attack and has studied Sith history for years on Malachor V ("a storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge"😉 apparently had a reason to think that the ancient Sith as a group would make people from her time (Nihilus, Sion, herself, the Exile - possible Revan, Malak and maybe even Kun) "look like children" and she descripes the power of Ragnos as "frightening". Did you ever see a Sith using such words to descripe Sidious ? I didn't. In fact the only situation I remember a Sith having thoughts like this is Dooku thinking about a Dark Side Yoda - and those thoughts included Sidious being owned by a Dark Side Yoda.

I didn't see Sidious surpassing Plageuis in one of those sources. In fact this would be pretty dumb. Sidious himself said that Plageuis pocessed knowledge to manipulate midi-chlorians and therefore could create life. Why would Sidious use clone bodies or try to take over Anakin Solo's body when he had knowledge needed to create a new body for himself using the force ?

And sorry to say that. But in DLotS you have Nadd talking about using Sadow's knowledge to create an entire new body for him and in JK:JA Ragnos sceptre is attributed with the ability to resurrect (aka creating a full functioning and living being) Ragnos. If Sidious could do anything like that he would have done it but apparently he didn't and instead relied on technology.

Yes, sorry. You are right. It's been a while since I've seen ESB so I somehow had in my mind that both of them were on another ship (in the asteroid field) and Vader was away in order to talk to Sidious. My mistake.

Why you keep referring to the ship when I was talking about Sadow's amulets and Ragnos sceptre ? Those devices are clearly not "electrical" weapons but just working with force power. And we've seen them tearing stuff away when used by less powerful beings. In case of Ragnos sceptre we've even seen this thing draining force energy from places, equip non-force users with force powers on Jedi Knight level and apparently it did have the ability to resurrect a person that was dead for 5,000 years - all in the hands of a minor force user.

And yes. Naga didn't use a force storm to stop the Tetan's. Maybe because it's not really controlable by a single person (as Sidious suggests himself in the Book of Anger) or maybe because it wasn't effective in the situation. But the Ancient Sith must have known it since it is mentioned in the TOTJ sourcebook as well as the Sith in "Jedi vs. Sith" say that this is an ancient technique (remember that they had their Dark Side knowledge coming from a Sith holocron stolen from the Jedi temple).

In the same way I could ask you why Sidious didn't use all kinds of instakill abilities (that he knew) when he had to instakill somebody. He could have survived in ROTJ instantly killing Vader. He could have instakilled Mace, Yoda, Fisto, Kolar, Teen. Instead he got nearly tooled twice by Yoda and Mace. He could have killed anybody in DE when needed. But instead he relied on "not instantly killing" force techniques which lead to his death several times and to his final defeat. Reason ? I don't see any except the plot - and even this could have been designed otherwise if wished.

Where did we see Palp instantly killing force users ? Name them. Give me the source. Ragnos hasn't instakilled people, right. Kreia did that with 3 Jedi Council members and she descripes Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening". So why not suggest that Ragnos can do that too ?
On the other hand: Why should we suggest that Sidious can use instakill attacks especially against other force user when he never did that in any actual source ?

Oh wait. Where did we see the electical weapons when Sadow did fight Kressh and they keep putting their swords through massive stone walls ? Were did we see the electical weapon that helped Sadow to put his sword through a stone table ? Where did we see the electical weapon when Kressh shattered his metal sword with bare hands ? Where was the electrical device helping Nihilus draining planets or Kreia instakilling 3 Jedi Council Members ? I didn't see any electrical weapons there. What I see is Sadow labelling a blaster (electrical weapon) "primitive" in GAotS.

And even if Sadow used an electrical weapon able to destroy entire star systems and cause supernovas: The fact that the Ancient Sith did have something like that 5,000 years before anyone else developed something coming close to it (Death Star, Sun Crusher) is pretty impressive.

I call you a fanboy because you exeggerate Sidious abilities.

If he knew anything and was above the Ancient Sith why do we see him running to the ancient Sith and asking for help even in DE times ?
It's illogical. The same way it's illogical to assume that somebody who could write down his entire knowledge in three books pocessed more knowledge than people who did need entire planets (Malachor V) to archievate their knowledge.
Why should anybody believe that somebody has more force powers than people who were the offspring of interbreeding force users over generations ? Why should anybody believe that somebody can amass more knowledge in 98 years than other people could in the matter of centuries ?
Why should anybody believe that Sidious could kill persons that lived in constant struggle for power and survived using force attacks that were known to said people ? Why should we believe that he can defeat them in a fight when we saw them shattering metal and hammering through walls with their weapons ?

I told you once and I will tell you again: Sidious philosophy is to avoid fights, to manipulate, to act behind the scenes while the ancients entire philosophy is based on using violence, conquer and cause death and destruction. I would willfully admit that Sidious could outsmart most of the ancients in politics or deception but in a fight in which only physical strength and force powers matter against people whos entire life was a constant fight to gain power against other force users ? I really don't see him winning this - especially not after I have seen Luke defeating him in a lightsaber fight in DE when Luke later did have some serious problems with the spirit of Exar Kun and after this suggests that it needs the combined power of all Jedi to try and stop Ragnos. It just doesn't make sense.

Ever since said sourcebooks started including solid story information, like when they brought Kadann back?

Fine, I don't care if you're cynical, but drop the insults.

how would he manage to kill another Force user? One of the thousands of other attacks he knew?

Ragnos playing the other Dark Lords against eachother was mentioned in earlier sources, it's not something she invented. And great for people from Kreia's time...did they master knowledge and techniques dating back 25,000 years to the founding of the Order and Had Abaddon?

And Dooku was scared of Sidious, for one...you want 'descriptions?' I'll be glad to bring out a few from the narrarations. Some included are an event horizon in the force, a terrifying, devouring darkness, the manifestation of the Dark Side itself, etc.

And Palpatine used cloning because it was fast, efficient and provided him with numerous bodies in numerous areas. It was his preference, not his limitation.

That's the power of the tools, many of which Sidious got his hands on, according to several sources. Apparently it was Hethrir who gave Tavion the sceptre, too.

Yes, very impressive for the ancient Sith, I'll agree. However, when Kun uses the amulet, he himself says he can barely manage to direct it, and he never uses it in such a manner again on someone who could be capable of fighting back-Ulic for example. Yes, he uses it on Aleema, but as a stun blast.

Ok, exagerrating his abilities? He manage to devastate fleets and reuce worlds to ruin...described as the single greatest usage of dark side power for the former, and described as having mastered every technique and aspect of the force to that point, that's eagerration? What of the severe exagerration of the Ancients? And Sidious heads to Korriban, quite simply because time is an extreme factor, with his last clone body being in the poor state and himself being almost unable to use the force for killing it.

And once again: How Sidious amassed such knowledge is unknown, but he did. As for the books, Sidious was said to be planning and to be able to write hundreds more before his death.

And 'shattering metal?' Ludo slammed a blade made of crystal onto a stone floor. And this is an earnest question: When did they shatter through walls?
continued next post, size too great:

Sidious had years to visit numerous sites and both gain the knowledge and drained other energies from where he visited. Just because fighting wasn't his preference doesn't he's not capable of it. He knows techniques the Ancient Sith did not, including Jedi arts, and what would the ancients do exactly if Sidious used a force storm and focused it on them? Aren't brains a big part of battles? And if the Ancients' philosophy was to conquer, why were they stagnating for centuries on end? Naga's wishes to expand and conquer were met with scorn until Simus's death. And Luke's problems with Kun stem from several things: He did not want to fight Kyp and having centuries dead Sith Lords appear tend to surprise most people...Sidious's power broke Luke's spirit in a way that hasn't been done since and turned him to the dark side, and the descriptions since of Luke's battle with Sidious sums up their power adequately, like how Ganner, Anakin and Jacen were in the former two's deaths and Jacen's lightshow: It wasn't something permanent, but the will of the force acting through them, to describe it from Jacen, the aforementioned became 'pure conduits to the force and its raw power.'
Sidious was the same with the dark side, and described as its manifestation. after his final death, the dark side was irrevocably weakened. He might not have lived in those times, but experince tends to mean little in SW...Jacen manage to match the centuries old Tsavong Lah, Sidious himself killed numerous powerful masters-some many centuries old- during the purge-hence his saber collection.If it's the force in a duel, Sidious could doubtlessly use the many, many powerful techniques the Ancients wouldn't know or use another attack on a level they couldn't guard against.

And I call into question your description of the Ancients when we take into Ludo's Marka devotion, their reaction to Simus's death-and it was Simus's death, not that he was murdered by outsiders- and the necessity to trick them into going to war...even Simus's concern for Naga.

Keep in mind Palpatine planned to exist for at least 10,000 years. An army of clone bodies would grant him that right.

All of this has to do with what exactly Lightsnake? Your novels have no point, nor do they present a valid argument for Sidious. Why not accept the fact that Sidious was not among the greatest sith lords and move on. How many times do we have to have this discussion.

But he was accepted as among the greatest as you describe. In Empire's End.

We're not talking about greatest, we're talking about the most powerful. He most likely is the greatest because he accomplished something no other has, but this in a versus thread, it's all about power, not greatness.

"Why not accept the fact that Sidious was not among the greatest sith lords and move on. How many times do we have to have this discussion."
-TdTd
*reads last post*
Mmm...hmm..

However, when Kun uses the amulet, he himself says he can barely manage to direct it, and he never uses it in such a manner again on someone who could be capable of fighting back-Ulic for example. Yes, he uses it on Aleema, but as a stun blast.

Maybe because the amulet provides defense against other amulets? Always a possible explanation. They do glow in conjunction.

after his final death, the dark side was irrevocably weakened.

Perhaps because he was the last Sith Lord to be in a physical form?

Actually, if you count the EU, we have...Darth Talon and Darth Krayt! Never minding Lumiya and the like..

Did Kun know Ulic had the amulet, though?

We're not talking about greatest, we're talking about the most powerful. He most likely is the greatest because he accomplished something no other has, but this in a versus thread, it's all about power, not greatness.

Perhaps, but there are only 6 above him IMO.

Possibly 5. Nadd never impressed me.

Disagreeing, but yes...that's...seven out of, what? Several thousand?