Originally posted by Smasandian
I'm just hoping the Cowboys don't self destruct.But at least this year was a success. They did much better than most expected and they stopped that stupid "December curse" once and for all.
I still think in most peoples eyes they need to get a playoff win to have a success still, but half the monkey is off the back with December out of the way.
I'll add my bit in here and please, debate if you want, I'm always up for some good debate 😄 .
Favre for Nfl 2010 MvP. Why? I'll explain.
I've seen, not here at least, since I haven't run through this thread yet, however noticed that Peyton has been noted for MvP. However, my revoke to that is...how?
How has Peyton Manning played better then Favre this season? The reason why I say this is because, unlike Favre, although Manning has had some changes within this season, he is not even remotely close within the same boat that Favre has had to use. Firstly, Peyton is still for the most part, if not almost all of it, playing with the same offensive group that's been with him for years.
Throwing it to Wayne and Clark is not different, and if you look back multiple years down the road, has it changed a whole lot? Look at Peyton's offensive line, this is the same offensive line that has protected him for years, and they have barely changed if even.
So Peyton has had years of experience playing with these players and has already established a well made chemistry, and although he's had a great season, he should be noted above Favre for MvP?
That's just absolutely ridiculous and to me, it would be a terrible and atrocious mistake if Manning wins the MvP and not Favre for 2010. Firstly, let me get this out...unlike Manning, Favre has not had years to build chemistry and trust with his offensive unit.
He bypassed the training camp and basically went to war with his core and just expected for great results to happen. This is what literally occured, Brett Favre who has never thrown the ball to Harvin etc, etc has put up staggering numbers with an offensive group that he's only had One single season to play with.
Yes, he has arguably the most talented RB in the league, however you aren't a run first team if your QB has over 4,000 yards passing. The Vikings have established that they are a Pass first to set up the run, and it's shown through out the majority of the season.
Brett Favre has 33 TD's, a phenomenal career best 7 Ints, and a whopping 107 Passer Rating. Yes, statistically it's even better then his 96 Season which was a Monster Season in it's own right...39 TDs and 13 Int with I believe a 95 passer rating, I forgot the last part.
However, those numbers says it all, and to add even more case to Favre's notion for winning MvP. He's doing it at the old ripe age of 40, at this time, Elway was not the same player he was in his late 20's and early 30's, even Montana in his twilight years was not stacking monster numbers like this, nor playing at this level.
The fact remains is that Manning is 33 yrs old, so he should still be playing at an incredibly elite level. However, Favre shouldn't be, or at least, that's what is to be said, he's doing what Michael Jordan was doing at the age 40 years old. The Impossible.
Favre to me, deserves and should receive the NFL's Most Valuable Player Award. There is absolutely no way the Viking's go 12-4 without him, even with AP, because there was games during this season in which AP could never establish the run, but Favre simply tore them to pieces. Yes, the Colts couldn't of won without Manning either, however again, look to my above statements as to why Favre's season run this years is more amazing then Mannings.
To me, it's a no brainer, Brett Favre should be this years 2010 NFL MVP. However, leave it to stupid Press People to vote on this and give it to a player who's still close to his Prime Manning. Favre to me deserves the MvP, 33 TD, 7 INT, 107 Passer Rating at the age of 40 pushes it for me, there's no way he shouldn't deserve it, no way, if they just look at the age, and see what he's doing at this point of his career, how can you not give him the nod over everyone else this year.
A. Aside from Wayne and Clark and Addai, the entire offensive players were different or missing.
B. Yeah, he had the same line but Favre had the best line in football in Minn.
C. Take Manning out, you get the last two games of the season for the Colts. Take out Favre, you still have the best o line and Peterson.
D. Bill Belicheck went for it on 4th and 2 on his own 30 yard line or something like that because he knew Manning would go down the field and beat him. He knew that. He wouldn't of done it with Favre helming the spot.
I've never been a fan of only deserving MVP if your team makes the playoffs. Yes, the Vikings and Colts wouldn't have been as good if Favre and Manning weren't at the helm. I get that, and I also get the fact that Jackson and Painter are worse than Tyler Thigpen. Maybe Sorgi and Rosenfelds aren't, but who knows. But largely, most teams in the playoffs have good overall teams. You can't get there without them. (and please spare me 2000 Baltimore, 2006 Chiefs, and 1989 Steelers).
But I really like Chris Johnson. Forget Collins' struggles. He had a terrible start even with a good running game. That's happened before with him, and happened in 2009. To say that the Titans weren't ready to quit after 0-6 meant that you didn't watch any of their games. Johnson single-handedly turned a train wreck of a season into an 8-8 mark. He made Vince Young a better QB. Defenses stacked the middle and Johnson got to the edge. Defenses put players on the middle and edge and Young made plays. I can't count the number of stretch plays that Johnson turned into 70 yard touchdowns. Yes, Young played great, don't get me wrong, but with mediocre WR's and a defense that was already booking golf vacations in October, Johnson ignited a spark and kept it going. At the week 11 mark, I have never seen a more dangerous 3-6 team than the Tennessee Titans of 2009, and 90% of it falls on Chris Johnson (and Jeff Fisher's decision to play him instead of Lendale White).
Originally posted by Smasandian
A. Aside from Wayne and Clark and Addai, the entire offensive players were different or missing.B. Yeah, he had the same line but Favre had the best line in football in Minn.
C. Take Manning out, you get the last two games of the season for the Colts. Take out Favre, you still have the best o line and Peterson.
D. Bill Belicheck went for it on 4th and 2 on his own 30 yard line or something like that because he knew Manning would go down the field and beat him. He knew that. He wouldn't of done it with Favre helming the spot.
A. Playing with Wayne, Clark and Addai for years adds Chemistry, period, try to dispute it, but you can't, Favre threw 33 TD passes and only 7 Ints to a bunch of players he's never played with.
B. Manning sacked 10 Times only, Favre sacked 34 times...do you still want to make the claim Favre has the "better" Line?
C. Take Favre out, and they would shoot to pray for 10-6, there was games to where AP was not successful, but due to Favre they won. You honestly think the Vikings would go 12-4 w/o Favre? His 33 TD equates to all of the TD's thrown by their then QB's from 07-08 combined, also read up at B. again for my notion on the O-Line.
D. Incorrect, Bill went 4th and 2 because he trusted his Offense and Brady to get it done. He wasn't scared of of "Manning" he believed that by doing that he would end the game, it had nothing to do with Manning on this case, and how does this equate to him not fearing Favre? Why should he? Firstly he's not playing Favre on this Monster Minnesota Team, and the teams he played Favre, he either had a vastly superior Team (NE during the early-mid 2000 Era) or else he got destroyed by Favre (Back when Favre was in his absolute Prime with the Monster Packers in the mid-late 90's). So again, what are you trying to say?
Basically, you have shown me nothing to make me feel that Manning is more deserving. Favre has better overall stats, AND he has less then half the Int's Manning threw with an offensive group he's only played with for one season, at the age of 40. That sounds way more ridiculous and crazy in contrast to Manning who is doing it at the age of 33 with an offensive unit that he already knows.
Originally posted by botankus
I've never been a fan of only deserving MVP if your team makes the playoffs.
I agree somewhat with what your saying, it's a double edge sword, however if we truly went by MVP, then in 2007, Favre should have won over Brady, considering Brady had such a super stacked team, you could have put any great QB there and they would have dominated. Favre literally won for the Packers for more then half the season with his arm alone when they had absolutely no run game, or basically put, they were ranked the worst running FB team of 2007.
How about when he broke his throwing right thumb back in 2003, and still threw a Monster 32 TD passes, however was overshadowed because his team only won 10-6 and thus was noted "out" of the Top MvP vote, although he was ranked 3rd in the votings, however everyone should know that if you can even play the QB position with a broken thumb and even more ridiculously throw for 32 TD's with it is absolutely phenomenal.
There's alot of that that goes around within all sports, there was many years in which Michael Jordan should have flat out won, but the press even admitted that the reason they wouldn't allow MJ to win all the time was because they got tired of him "winning all the time".
Sad but true statement, so yes, I can agree and disagree in a sense, there are times when the deserving person wins, however sometimes they don't. This year, I'm just hoping that they give to Favre, because out of everything that he's done, his is the most amazing.
Originally posted by JustFrame
however if we truly went by MVP, then in 2007, Favre should have won over Brady, considering Brady had such a super stacked team, you could have put any great QB there and they would have dominated. Favre literally won for the Packers for more then half the season with his arm alone when they had absolutely no run game, or basically put, they were ranked the worst running FB team of 2007.
I would honestly be ok with Favre, Manning, or Johnson winning MVP this year.
However I do have to point out a huge flaw in your logic JustFrame.
One of your big points for Favre this year is he was doing it with new players and still throwing lots of TD's and few INT's. You then say Favre should win in 07 over Brady. Well in 07 Favre was with guys he had been with a long time. Brady was brand new to Moss and Welker. Welker had also never been any good before, and it had been a long time since Moss was any good. Yet Brady managed 4800 yards, 50 td's and only 8 picks. In fact the top 4 WR's on that team were all brand new to the team in 2007.
How is no one not even mentioning Brees?
Last I checked, he had the most TD's, the highest passer rating, the highest completion percentage(NFL record) and the #1 seed in the NFC. Someone is going to say stats all of a sudden don't matter?
From my point of view, it's either Brees or Manning. Favre should not be in any way, shape or form, ahead of Brees in the MVP race.
Now in comparison with Manning, Brees threw 5 less interceptions, is +10 in the passer rating department and scored 3 more TD's. Manning has 1 more win and threw for 100 more yards, but that was in 57 more attempts.
I would give it to Brees, but I also wouldn't mind if he and Manning were Co-MVP's.
Originally posted by forumcrew
I would honestly be ok with Favre, Manning, or Johnson winning MVP this year.However I do have to point out a huge flaw in your logic JustFrame.
One of your big points for Favre this year is he was doing it with new players and still throwing lots of TD's and few INT's. You then say Favre should win in 07 over Brady. Well in 07 Favre was with guys he had been with a long time. Brady was brand new to Moss and Welker. Welker had also never been any good before, and it had been a long time since Moss was any good. Yet Brady managed 4800 yards, 50 td's and only 8 picks. In fact the top 4 WR's on that team were all brand new to the team in 2007.
First off they are not two of the samething, firstly, Welker, Moss and all had proven themselves before heading to NE, Welker was a beast during the 2006 season, even Bill stated this very clearly as to why he wanted Welker, that guy caused havoc all year long, and was the lone bright light during the Fin's terrible year, and do we need to have an introduction for Moss? There is no argument here, and secondly, Brady actually practiced with them during training camp to at least have fluidity and chemistry.
Who on that WR core in Minnesota had proven themselves before Favre? Especially one of them being a rooky? None. The fact remains, Brady was playing with players whom within their Nfl careers showed that they were some of the best around (Again, go back to his Offensive Unit back in 2007 you'll see quite a few big names there), Favre did not, and yet he still flourished.
To Lord of Evolution Bree's numbers are great, and yes, I'd vouch he's definitely in the MvP race, however again, Favre's numbers at his age is unheard of. We don't know of another 40 yr old who's ever had the same monster statistical year as Favre is as a QB. Bree's is doing what he should be doing at the age of 30 and in his prime, had it of been just Manning, Bree's and Rivers doing it all this year, then it'd probably be Manning or Bree's, the guy is making his WR core look way better they are.
However, a 40 yr old man doing it just as well as all of the top QB's in their prime today and more importantly statistically playing "better" then he did when he was in his late 20's? #4 wins it for me.
Originally posted by JustFrame
First off they are not two of the samething, firstly, Welker, Moss and all had proven themselve, they were monsters before entering into N.E. There is no argument here, and secondly, Brady actually practiced with them during training camp to at least have fluidity and chemistry.Who on that WR core in Minnesota had proven themselves before Favre? None. The fact remains, Brady was playing with players whom within their Nfl careers showed that they were some of the best around, Favre did not.
This is false on multiple levels.
Wes Welker
In his 3 years in the league before coming to NE he had a total of 96 catches for 1100 yards and 1 TD. His biggest success was returning kicks and punts but even there he had only scored once as well.
Randy Moss
Ok it was no secret Moss was a great player before coming to NE. But a lot of people thought his days as an elite player were over. In the 3 years before getting to NE Moss only averaged 50 catches, 775 yards, and 8 scores. Are these terrible numbers? No but they are far from elite.
Your other argument is Brady was able to practice with them, well Favre has been able to practice with his guy as well. He certainly did not have as much time but I do not think when a guy came into camp should factor into MVP votes. Also the system Favre came into is one he could play in, in his sleep. He has more experience in that system than any player in the league so he did not exactly need a lot of training camp.
Were Favre's guys proven? Not completely. But they had Rice who was a 1st round pick in 2007, in the same respect Moss was a 4th round pick in 2007, and Welker was a 2nd and 7th round pick.
He also had Harven who was the rookie of the year and another 1st round WR.
And finally Berrian who I think had proven himself as a good WR.
Oh and lets not forget having the #1 O-line and RB in the game. You can not discount that.
EVO a case could be made for Brees, but using stats you can make a case for Rodgers, Rivers, Romo, Schuab...
Speaking of Welker, did you know he was cut by the Chargers in 2004?
I did not know this but I was doing a VCR-->DVD dub of the Steelers/Dolphins game from week #3 of 2004 the other day, and Welker was back returning the kickoff. The announcer said, "And back to receive is Wes Welker from Texas Tech, who was just cut by the Chargers."
Originally posted by forumcrew
EVO a case could be made for Brees, but using stats you can make a case for Rodgers, Rivers, Romo, Schuab...
How is that? None of those guys have better stats than Brees or even Manning.
But the key here is that Brees and Manning lead their teams to #1 in their respective conferences. With Brees winning the first 13 games of the season and Manning winning the first 14. You can't say that for anyone else.
And are we not using stats to prop of Chris Johnson? His team isn't even in the playoffs, stats is about all you can use with him.
Age doesn't mean jack shit and should play no part in the discussions. I don't care if Favre was 100 years old, that wouldn't make him any more deserving than a player who had better stats, more wins and meant more to their team. Overall Brees DID more. He accomplished more and he meant more. Is that not the MVP right there? What else can you possibly ask from your leader?
I agree Age should not mean anything, but I imagine Favre will get at least a few votes because of it still.
And stats are a funny thing, based on what ones you want to look at you can often make a case for various people.
Brees had a 3.09 TD:INT Ratio
Favre was 4.71
Rodgers was 4.28
Rivers was 3.11
Five guys passed for more yards than Brees. (Schuab, Manning, Romo, Rodgers, Brady)
Two guys averaged more yards per attempt. (Rivers, Big Ben)
Six guys threw less INT's than Brees (Favre, Rodgers, Rivers, Romo, Garrard, McNabb)
Only 2 guys (Brady, Manning) got sacked less than Brees. Someone can use this to say he had a better situation around him and less to overcome.
Six guys completed more passes over 20 yards (Rivers, Schuab, Big Ben, Romo, Eli, Manning)
Nine guys completed more passes over 40 yards (McNabb, Rodgers, Romo, Schuab, ben, Favre, Brady, Eli, Rivers)
Four guys threw for more 1st downs (Manning, Schuab, Brady, Favre)
Again dont get me wrong, Brees had a great year and would not say he is not deserving of being mentioned in MVP talks but just showing stats will always be used to show what you want to show.
I would suspect Favre might not get the votes because of all the shit he has done.
An interesting note, some writer that I read had a good point. He watched the last Vikings game against the Giants and noticed that Favre was still in the game and throwing for TD's, while Manning was sitting on the bench for the past one and a half game.
It's interesting.
In the end, I go by what I see and I watch Manning play and he's almost unstoppable. Case in point. The Jets get a kickoff TD. The next 4 minutes, Manning drives down and gets the TD. He does that on a constant basis nowadays. He's the Colts. Take him out, you'll see the same team that lost to Jets/Bills when Painter was in.
Also, your crazy to think that Belicheck went for it to win the game. It's so plainly obvious that he went for it because he knew Manning would win the game. Or how about the Titans, the next week where they went for it every time they were in the redzone? They knew Manning would come back down and score a TD when he needed to.
Originally posted by forumcrew
I agree Age should not mean anything, but I imagine Favre will get at least a few votes because of it still.And stats are a funny thing, based on what ones you want to look at you can often make a case for various people.
Brees had a 3.09 TD:INT Ratio
Favre was 4.71
Rodgers was 4.28
Rivers was 3.11Five guys passed for more yards than Brees. (Schuab, Manning, Romo, Rodgers, Brady)
Two guys averaged more yards per attempt. (Rivers, Big Ben)
Six guys threw less INT's than Brees (Favre, Rodgers, Rivers, Romo, Garrard, McNabb)
Only 2 guys (Brady, Manning) got sacked less than Brees. Someone can use this to say he had a better situation around him and less to overcome.
Six guys completed more passes over 20 yards (Rivers, Schuab, Big Ben, Romo, Eli, Manning)
Nine guys completed more passes over 40 yards (McNabb, Rodgers, Romo, Schuab, ben, Favre, Brady, Eli, Rivers)
Four guys threw for more 1st downs (Manning, Schuab, Brady, Favre)
Again dont get me wrong, Brees had a great year and would not say he is not deserving of being mentioned in MVP talks but just showing stats will always be used to show what you want to show.
If we're going to go by stats, then don't go all John Hollinger on me. Touchdowns, yards, completions, completion percentage and interceptions. Those are the main ones that actually matter. Brees was the most consistent throughout.
Put it like this, the best case can be made for Brees based on the numbers he put up and the position he put his team in.
Whatever case you can make for Manning, you can say Brees did the same thing.
Originally posted by Lord Evolution
And are we not using stats to prop of Chris Johnson? His team isn't even in the playoffs, stats is about all you can use with him.
But whatever, it's not like he's my brother or even on a team that I like. I don't even care that he's from ECU, which is down the road. I just think he had a MVP-caliber year, that's all.
So Mora was fired which I am ok with. I always wanted to like Mora but our secondary was terrible when he was in charge of it, and his in ability to see that Forsett>Julius really irritated the shit out of me.
Talk is Pete Carroll is the most likely to get the job. My question is are you going to now become a Seahawk fanboy Evo? Or does your support only follow star players and not staff.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit who the MVP is?
Whoever wins , wins. It doesn't give me any satisfaction so wtf does it matter. Personally I think it should be given to no one. Running backs don't get yards without Offensive Lines unless you are Barry Sanders. Quarterbacks don't pass effectively without Star WRs. Wrs need a QB, and etc. etc. That is why only one thing matters. The Lombardi for BEST TEAM! 😛
Come on playoffs!