Originally posted by leonidas
okay. this is info from orion 16-18.according to clockwerx, guardian of the tree of life/knowledge, the ecruos is the 'negation of all that is', the 'great enemy of the source itself'. speaking honestly, i'm not entirely sure is was a multiversal entity (is there such a thing in dc cosmology??) but it was a multiversal level threat. (THAT was my initial explanation. remembering after a few months i recalled my thoughts as multiversal entity -- no one knows WHERE it came from . . .)
the ecruos's purpose was the destruction of the tree of life, the provenence of all creation. the ecruos was destroying the tree. each time the tiniest branch fell from the tree, a world or even a galaxy died . . . ecruos overthrew the guardian of the tree, clockwerx, then set about destroying it.
here's a bit from simonson himself on clockwerx:
"I was inspired to a certain extent by the tales of Lord Dunsany, one of the earliest and best writers of fantasy. And by some of my own readings in mythology as well. I wanted to create a realm free of time, the cosmic axis of the universe where time does not exist except as an eternal present. It's the realm where stars are born, from where all actual time flows. This borrows a little from Mircea Eliade's writings on myth and its meaning. He explored the idea of time in myth as having two natures, an eternal mythological time, and a renewable 'secular' time. Dunsany in one of his stories had a wonderful image of a great beast or being turning the pages of a huge book, black to white, white to black, as the nights turned into day and back again. And of course, I'm influenced by Norse mythology as well since that's one of my interests.
anyway, the ecruos was chaos, which is why when orion freely gave up the ale to the creature, it was destroyed. the ale is 'perfect order'. with it, orion threatened to 'ignite a universal holocaust.' at the very least, orion could have used the ale to destroy the universe.
the ecruos reminds me very much of nidhoggr, the creature of norse myths that gnaws at yggdrasil. however, the way dc is set up, both clockwerx and ecruos seemed more like vertigo-type characters (lucifer et al, . . .) i found the cosmology that simonson outlined very cool, but i'm not sure how it fits in with dc's overall cosmology.
nonethless, ecruos was enormously powerful (anti-source it is named elsewhere) and the ale was powerful to destroy the universe which would put its power on at least the universal scale, depending on how you view dc. it doesn't really have a multiversal scheme, so universe means more in dc than marvel.
oh, and orion was a GREAT series!! 😉
Well, according to this the ALE is multiversal having taking on the Anti-Source.
Darkseid w/ALE wins this over Thanos with IG
Originally posted by BlaqChaos
They were. Which is why the Gods needed major back-up and a decade of fighting to beat them.
the titans were not 'above' the olympians, they were their precursors. after all, it was zeus who castrated cronos. 😱 just as cronos before him castrated uranus after the titans themselves revolted. according to most sources, the titans also outnumbered the olympian gods in the titanomachy. during the war (titanomachy), the gods and titans stalemated. the 100-handed and the cyclopes were freed at the 10 year mark of the war, and it was the 3 cyclopes ho made the biggest difference by forging zeus's lightning bolts (among others things). the 100-handed threw rocks and zeus hurled lightning and thus the gods beat the titans after a long war.
😉
The Anti-Life Equation is a conscious entity, aware of it's own existence, and it's power is on an unimaginable scale.
The "equation" itself,(that can be harnessed and was carried by Mr Miracle is but a portion of it's entirety).
When it was born(ALE)it's birth caused a two-hundred-square-light-year area of space to be reduced to cosmic dust.
Darkseid also said about the ALE, "only a fraction of this nightmare's power will be enough to bring my reality to it's knees", obviously meaning his universe or perhaps his multiverse, since when he said this he was in the ALE's other-dimensional realm.
By the way, towards the end of that series Dr Fate - HighFather - Orion - Etrigen and even Darkseid join together to form a unity called the "Cosmic Cinque of Power", this union controlled by Dr Fate, was powerful enough to destroy realities, and yet even it was not enough to defeat the ALE, they had to fly away for their lives, literally, and destroy the universe between theirs and the ALE so it would not have annihilated them.
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Anti-Life Equation is a conscious entity, aware of it's own existence, and it's power is on an unimaginable scale.The "equation" itself,(that can be harnessed and was carried by Mr Miracle is but a portion of it's entirety).
When it was born(ALE)it's birth caused a two-hundred-square-light-year area of space to be reduced to cosmic dust.
Darkseid also said about the ALE, "only a fraction of this nightmare's power will be enough to bring my reality to it's knees", obviously meaning his universe or perhaps his multiverse, since when he said this he was in the ALE's other-dimensional realm.
By the way, towards the end of that series Dr Fate - HighFather - Orion - Etrigen and even Darkseid join together to form a unity called the "Cosmic Cinque of Power", this union controlled by Dr Fate, was powerful enough to destroy realities, and yet even it was not enough to defeat the ALE, they had to fly away for their lives, literally, and destroy the universe between theirs and the ALE so it would not have annihilated them.
that's cosmic odyssey. as i said earlier, i'm not at all sure that's canon. it pretty well CAN'T be if orion IS.
that's what i think as well. the tree represented EVERYTHING. least that's my interpretation.
that does NOT necessarily mean ecruos was a multiversal entity. he did somehow enter the absymal plane (where the tre is) when only the dead/'lost' are supossed to be and beating clockwerx and killing the tree are testaments of enormous power. being the graet enemy of the source is also interesting . . .
the source>IG doesnt it not even the omega effects that have hurt spectre, and anti monitor, can hurt someone who is protected by the source, isnt the source one of the only things above the spectre? When spectre killed darkseid who was it who remade darkseid, the presance or the spectre, if it was the source then the source is way up there to do that and is probably above the spectre thus above the IG
it's the essence of life, a parallel in practical (if not implemented) terms to the phoenix force. as for where it ranks with spectre -- if i'm not mistaken, they are both different aspects of the same 'all-powerful'/god source. that is, NEITHER os technically 'above' the other in the way that you mean. gs is up on recent spectre, as is juntai. one of them could probably explain the relationship between the 2 better than i could, but i think that's the basic crux of it.
the omega effect is NOT source related in anyway, so it's not surprising the OE would not affetc spectre. where he seid use it on spectre?
the astro-force otoh IS a direct manifestation of the source. it is its 'destructive' face, so to speak. it has been called the WRATH of the source. to me, that would make the astroforce very similar to whatever type of power it is that the spectre wields. i'd love to know more about that particular relationship as well. it's also why i think the astroforce is right there at the top of the list of powers, above power cosmic, power primordial and gl energy, AND the OE. it's orion's limited control and access to it that makes it LESS than it could be.
oh, and orion rocks!!!!!!!
And that's why, imo, there would be few that can beat Orion at his full potential, with better control of the Astro Force,(not full since you can't really have full control of the Source, just a portion of its power). I'd put put him close to Spectre levels. The Astro Force is one of the most powerful powers there is, only top by the Spectre Force. With better control and more access to Orion, Orion would be in Phoenix-like levels, since the Phoenix represents all there is in Marvel, and the Source represents all there is in DC.
Thanos with IG wins. The ALE is too mysterious and mythical enough for me to believe that it may not be that much...
I've not seen anything tangible to prove that the ALE is more powerful than the IG. The IG is more versatile and creative assuming for argument's sake that they are equal in terms of power...
Originally posted by RUNMAN
Thanos with IG wins. The ALE is too mysterious and mythical enough for me to believe that it may not be that much...I've not seen anything tangible to prove that the ALE is more powerful than the IG. The IG is more versatile and creative assuming for argument's sake that they are equal in terms of power...
that's partially true, though i've mentioned how powerful orion was with it -- power to destroy the universe if he chose. it STILL remains a bit of a mystery and open to the interpretation of the writer. still, the versatility of the ig may be an issue. i can't rule out a possible speed blitz from thanos. he may well be able to react more quickly than darkseid in this case and get in a first attack that would end it. i do think it would come down to who could attack who first. if darkseid commanded him to lay down the ig or obliterate himself with it, i think there's a very good chance thanos would do just that.
bottom line on the ale is there was no limit SHOWN to its power, so its hard to speculate WHAT level it's at. i think it CAN be reasonably assumed that the ale is at least at the ig level, seeing as how it was at least at universal levels, but again, (looking at it logically) the versatilty of the ig may still be enough to get the win for thanos.
I go for Thanos here.
I may not know a whole deal about the Anti Life Equation, all i know is that Darksied has made it his quest to discover it. Did he ever discover it by the way ?
Thanos with the Infiniti Gauntlet is way too powerful though to be taken out easily by Darksied with ALE. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not likely in my opinion. Just think about it....
Reality Time Power Mind Soul Space
With the IG Thanos has power over all these aspects. It's not just about being able to destroy universes, OBVIOUSLY if Thanos easily destroyed half the Universe with a command, he can destroy the entire Universe with another.....
The Power Gem contains INFINITE POWER..don't forget that. The Reality Gem allows Thanos to alter the facts of reality to his desires.
If it was the Marvel Universe, Thanos would win no doubt , but same for Darksied in DCU since IG doesn't work there.
Let's say a neutral universe where both objects work.
Now someone is going to argue that the ALE is multiversal while the IG is universal....this is only accepted because its assumed. If Thanos could easily erase his universe with IG, who says he couldn't continue erasing more universes with more simple commands?
I don't buy the Universal VS Multiversal debate in this case because who says the IG can only affect one universe?
Read THANOS QUEST...that infinite being that Thanos was talking about was said to have been responsbile for the creation of all realities. If you're telling me that's BS, then you're telling me that Thanos was either uneducated in his description (Even though he obtained this knowledge from Mistress Death's Infiniti Well) or that he's just full of S*** which i refuse to beleive.