Originally posted by Big Sexy
If I had to guess, I wouls say it would probably be equal to an incomplete cube being whose powers just extend to more than one Universe. I believe it is beneath Eternity. But thats just speculation until we see what it can do.
Ive just looked at your gender and seen youre a guy. I dont know why but with the name Big Sexy i always assumed you were a girl lol
{{{You have no right to do so whatsoever as when you signed up to this forum you agreed to abide by its rules. Youre taking it upon yourself to ignore said rules because you feel the match up is unfair if you abide by the rules and use current incarnations. }}}}}
Okay..so Current IG probably loses to Current ALe. Happy ?
I've only said that much atleast a million times.
{{{{{Why dont you try to do what most sensible posters would do in the same situation and either post a suggestion to the threadmaker or better still create your own thread where you can dictate the parameters.}}}}}}
I would, but then I'd have to repeat my arguments over again, and considering I've repeated myself many times, I'd rather not now.
Besides, Posting " Thanos with CLASSIC IG and DARKSIED WITH CURRENT ALE" seems kinda pointless.
Ne ways ill still ask MOD to read my posts, and ask if he/she feels that I went too far. OK ?
{{{Either way youre being very inconsiderate by posting as you please. A little maturity goes a long way in making a fine debator.}}}}
Don't talk to me about maturity. I don't use sarcasm and insults to make my points. I'm totally honest in my intepretations and arguments, I dont resort to trying to make the other look stupid.
I wouldn't call it posting as I please, I made my arguments pretty clear. If you so choose to disregard my points for w/e reason, do so, its your right.
until the nature of the dcu is decided upon, it is again difficult to say anything in the dcu is truly multiversal. if the ale DOES have some part to play in providing imps with their reality altering powers then clearly it goes beyond simply controlling will. frankly, there is not a definitive version of the ale, which is why it is always so hard to debate it. given what orion did with it, it does seem to have both the ability to control any will, as well as the power to destroy the universe -- whatever the dcu really is.
Originally posted by leonidas
No Non-canon SourcesNon-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.
As well, instances of PIS (plot induce stupidity - see below) and SvFL (Spiderman vs. Firelord - see below) are generally removed from consideration in standard versus debates.A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!)..
I don't see how i violated the forum rules, and I already sent an email to the MODS about my using the Infinity Gems in thier original content, instead of current ret con.
I mean, I'll check through the rules once more if I must, but I don't see it.
It defines a CANON SOURCE is being one in the Countinuity EX: Star Trek is only canon from the series and movies, but books do not count.
The canon sources in my argument WAS the INFINITY GAUNTLET ITSELF AND THANOS QUEST...
How did break the rules ?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I don't see how i violated the forum rules, and I already sent an email to the MODS about my using the Infinity Gems in thier original content, instead of current ret con.I mean, I'll check through the rules once more if I must, but I don't see it.
It defines a CANON SOURCE is being one in the Countinuity EX: Star Trek is only canon from the series and movies, but books do not count.
The canon sources in my argument WAS the INFINITY GAUNTLET ITSELF AND THANOS QUEST...
How did break the rules ?
are you addressing that query at me? 😕 personally, i don't really care which version you're talking about . . .
i don't even recall ever posting that comment you quoted! where'd that come from? incidentally, i never read the forum rules . . . 😮 i just always try to play nice. most times i think i succeed . . . 😄
Originally posted by Big Sexy
The power of the ALE seems very limited to me. It seems very tame compared to the other great cosmic powers.
depends. if all someone with the ale needs to say is 'you're my slave' and they are, doesn't really matter if it has loads of bells and whistles.
the whole multiversal thing in dc is still up in the air. i'm almost positive there is only one canonical earth in dc as a result of crisis. elseworlds are stories that 'could have been but weren't' so they are different from what ifs. vertigo is still a bit of a question because there has been some overlap, but again, those interactions may have been retconned or seen as noncanon. (i know sandman for instance has interected with the jla). a little monkey-wrench was thrown in during ic when a bunch of alternate universes were shown. were they 'hiding'? locked away somewhere? did they come into existence while alex was 'playing'? i really don't know . . .
but let's assume for the moment dc HAS no multiverse as marvel does. what does that mean then? that any marvel multiversal power is a automatically>any uber power in dc? i don't think so. but then how do we compare? if something has power over anything in the dcu, is that enough to say it could be multiversal in marvel? the different cosmologies really make comparing high level powers like we're discussing difficult. this may call for the start of a new thread in the comicbook section . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
are you addressing that query at me? personally, i don't really care which version you're talking about . . .i don't even recall ever posting that comment you quoted! where'd that come from? incidentally, i never read the forum rules . . . i just always try to play nice. most times i think i succeed . . .
No...Leo this was not directed at you lol
This was for GalacticStorm, and he still hasn't responded.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
depends. if all someone with the ale needs to say is 'you're my slave' and they are, doesn't really matter if it has loads of bells and whistles.Unless the that person is equipped with IG in my opinion. Thanos' Gauntlet may render him immune to the ALE's will power commands.
the whole multiversal thing in dc is still up in the air. i'm almost positive there is only one canonical earth in dc as a result of crisis. elseworlds are stories that 'could have been but weren't' so they are different from what ifs. vertigo is still a bit of a question because there has been some overlap, but again, those interactions may have been retconned or seen as noncanon. (i know sandman for instance has interected with the jla). a little monkey-wrench was thrown in during ic when a bunch of alternate universes were shown. were they 'hiding'? locked away somewhere? did they come into existence while alex was 'playing'? i really don't know . . .
I don't really follow that whole deal either. I don't personally care if Marvel or DC have a correct and/or consistant Multiversal or Universal structure, they retcon sh*t all the time.
I've gotten used to it, I just refer to what makes more sense in any argument.
but let's assume for the moment dc HAS no multiverse as marvel does. what does that mean then? that any marvel multiversal power is a automatically>any uber power in dc? i don't think so. but then how do we compare? if something has power over anything in the dcu, is that enough to say it could be multiversal in marvel? the different cosmologies really make comparing high level powers like we're discussing difficult. this may call for the start of a new thread in the comicbook section . . ..
Dude that's the same point I was trying to make, except that GS referred to my justifcation of that point as "rant" and pure opinion.
Just because something in DC or Marvel is multiversal does not ensure its victory over a UNIVERSAL power in another comic book company.
Someone treid to say that DC's Yahweh is much greater than Image's God, because Yahweh and the Prescense preside over multiple universes, while Image's God only has domain over ONE Universe. So what...this doesn't make Image's God inferior in anyway.
Perhaps Image's Single Universe is equal to DC or Marvel's Multiverse, and therefore GREATER than any single Universe in DC or Marvel. Whose to argue other wise? Whose to argue for it?
We don't know, so I don't think a debate about whose GOD or whose MULTIVERSE/UNIVERSE is greater, can go anywhere.
Leo,
I compared them by what I knew.
I was referring to the original idea of the Infinity Gauntlet, which gives its wielder absolute control over that Universe, not just of its territory but of its LAWS , CONCEPTS, and structure.
Then I referred to the ALE from everything I heard, I considered everyone's suggestion of it, including input from Big Sexy and GalacticStorm.
From what I understand, the ALE forces absolute order upon those underneath it. However I don't think it can FORCE someone with the IG to submit.
If Thanos has IG in this one universe, then he has total jurisdiction over that universe, and despite ALE being on a "multiversal" level, it might not be able to force IG to do anything. IG would control the physics and reality of that universe, and ALE may be null and void within that universe, but still be able to subdue every other universe NOT protected by IG
What do u thnk ?
[i think DC is multiversal if its not where did earth 2 and other earths come from?]
Good reasoning Mider, but I don't feel that makes it absolute.
Let me refer to other Comic Book company universes for this point:
In IMAGE COMICS: Curse of the Spawn takes place in an "alternate future" as stated on the Spawn website, first issue description. However, the entire "CURSE OF THE SPAWN" series has stories which are not exactly interrelated, its possible all these things happened in alternate realities. Curse of the Spawn is not validly connected to the original Spawn series, but does make numerous references. It sorta "fills in the blanks" and adds to the mythology of the original Spawn Title.
That doesn't mean there is a multiverse, however. Todd McFarlane never uses this term. HE JUST CREATES stories. They don't necessarily have to be in the same universe or no, he doesn't follow that structure, nor need he.
Top Cow Comics: WitchBlade and Dawn exist on Earth, yet thier stories are not really related, and COMPLETELY different ANd contradicting events occur in both "Earths" of the same Top Cow Universe, yet in a WITCHBLADE special, she met Dawn who helped her accept her transformation, even though Dawn really has nothing to do with the witchblade mythos, or vise versa. The writers just wanted to unite these characters i guess, but who cares....why does it NEED to be official ?
Can't we just enjoy the unity and creativity of it ?
Crossgen Comics- Only consisted of TWO universes : The Bright Universe and the Negation Universe. EARTH only existed in ONE UNIVERSE, there was no ALTERNATE realities and each universe was NOT A CLONE of another universe like Marvel and DC constantly go by.
In Crossgen, there was no crossgen multiverse, there just happened to have been TWO Universe who occupied nearby space. They were not related at all, in fact the PHYSICS of both universes were COMPLETELY different, therefore did not have the same "designer" / design, and were not each other's alternate.
This is why multiversal / universal doesn't affect my opinion. A lot of people here beleive that Marvel and DC's multiverses follow the same formats, and they don't HAVE to.
That's why in my argument I disregarded the factor of ALE being multiversal for the most part, bcuz it doesn't matter HOW FAR its reach and influence is. IT JUST DEPENDS WHAT IT CAN DO
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Leo,I compared them by what I knew.
I was referring to the original idea of the Infinity Gauntlet, which gives its wielder absolute control over that Universe, not just of its territory but of its LAWS , CONCEPTS, and structure.
Then I referred to the ALE from everything I heard, I considered everyone's suggestion of it, including input from Big Sexy and GalacticStorm.
From what I understand, the ALE forces absolute order upon those underneath it. However I don't think it can FORCE someone with the IG to submit.
If Thanos has IG in this one universe, then he has total jurisdiction over that universe, and despite ALE being on a "multiversal" level, it might not be able to force IG to do anything. IG would control the physics and reality of that universe, and ALE may be null and void within that universe, but still be able to subdue every other universe NOT protected by IG
What do u thnk ?
believe it or not, i get what you're saying. pariah is a perfect example of a multiversal character who is powerless in ALL universes. he can traverse any universe but lacks power in any of them. however, in the case of a 'power' like we've been discussing, i think that something that is truly multiversal would have jurisdiction over anything in any single universe. i think that's gs's point. at least i think that's what he's been saying . . .
now, there ARE instances where multiversal powers have not been able to so readily deal with 'universal' threats. lt twice has had his authority questioned/challenged: adam with the gauntlet challenged him and seemed to give in to lt only because the battle between them would have been too devastating to imagine. in that case it was not definitively proven that lt could have defeated adam in a battle. korvac in a what if also survived lt's wrath, and lt's sole response was to then shut off that universe from the rest of the multiverse. it was almost as if he conceded he was powerless over korvac in that instance and simply let him have that universe. could he have done more to stop korvac, or defeat him? i don't know, but again, korvac was a universal level threat that lt seemed unable to cope with.
bottomline -- your theory certainly has merit. i stand by my belief that first attack would likely win this and given ig's greater versatility, it would likely grant thanos that first attack, unless the ale was depicted in such a way as to allow the wielder to manipulate reality ala the imps. then it really is a toss up, imo.
believe it or not, i get what you're saying. pariah is a perfect example of a multiversal character who is powerless in ALL universes. he can traverse any universe but lacks power in any of them. however, in the case of a 'power' like we've been discussing, i think that something that is truly multiversal would have jurisdiction over anything in any single universe. i think that's gs's point. at least i think that's what he's been saying . . .
Awesome...thanks for the response. GS's point in terms of who he thinks would win, I'm uncertain of. His point against me however was that by using the IG in its original context, I was breaking forum rules, because I wasn't sticking to its retconned form that made it below the phoenix in dominance and re-made the IG so that instead of beloning to essense of an Infinite Being , it made the IG simply a result of the Big Bang.
He also stated that the current IG does not give its wielder true dominance over any universe, contradicting the point I was trying to make.
That's all.
now, there ARE instances where multiversal powers have not been able to so readily deal with 'universal' threats. lt twice has had his authority questioned/challenged: adam with the gauntlet challenged him and seemed to give in to lt only because the battle between them would have been too devastating to imagine. in that case it was not definitively proven that lt could have defeated adam in a battle. korvac in a what if also survived lt's wrath, and lt's sole response was to then shut off that universe from the rest of the multiverse. it was almost as if he conceded he was powerless over korvac in that instance and simply let him have that universe. could he have done more to stop korvac, or defeat him? i don't know, but again, korvac was a universal level threat that lt seemed unable to cope with.
Good Points...I don't thnk I was fully aware of all that either. It still harbors uncertainty though.....
bottomline -- your theory certainly has merit. i stand by my belief that first attack would likely win this and given ig's greater versatility, it would likely grant thanos that first attack, unless the ale was depicted in such a way as to allow the wielder to manipulate reality ala the imps. then it really is a toss up, imo.
You're probably right then. First attack is all that matters, but it would be hard to even configure that.
Not to be a pain here, I'm trying to be fair to DArksied as well, but if Thanos has Time Gem, then technically he would be able to sense and know when that attack is coming....UNLESS the ALE can BLOCK the Time Gem's ability to decipher its next move. (Can ALE command ORDER over time as well ?)
But yeah, like I imagined before. If ALE is a reality altering tool on a multiversal scale, then it would most likely over power IG, because it would then be like 10000 IG's vs 1 IG....
A few quick poitns from someone who hasn't read through this thread in its entirity...
The DCU is a multiverse for all intents and purposes. The Multiverse that we knew was just one subset of the Hypertime multiverse we had going...for all intents and purposes the "main" DCU is just one universe, but there are other extremely difficult to research universes, an infinite number of them...some of them have the multiverse intact, others do not. But its more of an "omniverse" than a multiverse. More than that, the fact that Lucifer refers to his creation as a multiverse and essentially says its the equal of God's universe lends credence to the idea that some multiversal thing is at work.
Either way, Scott Free specifically said that the Ecruos was a threat to the multiverse and I think Metron said that Orion might be the most powerful being in the multiverse.
In terms of how much power it has...I do think it had absolute control over the mind and the soul in a way that the IG did not...notice that Orion was easily able to control a Promethean Giant but Thanos was forced to physically battle the Celestials.
Thats true, but the references to the glove (like the GL ring) seemed to be under the compehension of the wielder. Thanos during the Thanos quest easily had a better control than the elders he took the gems from. Still will the Multiverse apparently gone in the DCU because of the crisis, it would really only affect the one universe. We all know the ALE will be defeated which is the nature of all comics. The problem is that if that is so, it will most likely be defeated by a single universe.
Sure, degrees of comprehension are a possibility but if anyone is going to have claim to that hobbling its going to be Orion who was using the equation more and more effectively and powerfully in every issue.
Overall, the equation supposedly made him one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse and allowed Orion to defeat a creature ready to destroy the multiverse. The gauntlet made Thanos one of the most powerful beings in the universe and allowed him to defeat the physical representation of the universe (Not a terribly impressive feat...just ask almost any cosmic at Marvel).
I really can't argue that point since I don't know much of Orion using the ALE. Do you know the issue, I need to brush up.
By current statments of the ale are based on allusions made in certain issues and current DC continuity. The crisis has ended the mulitverse. At this point the ALE will be batteling a single universe unless the multiverse is somehow brought back. Now that make the ALE at odds with a universe. When its defeated, it will probable be by that same universe.
again this is speculation and just a possibility.