Thanos with IG vs. Darkseid with ALE

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I don't see how i violated the forum rules, and I already sent an email to the MODS about my using the Infinity Gems in thier original content, instead of current ret con.

I mean, I'll check through the rules once more if I must, but I don't see it.

It defines a CANON SOURCE is being one in the Countinuity EX: Star Trek is only canon from the series and movies, but books do not count.

The canon sources in my argument WAS the INFINITY GAUNTLET ITSELF AND THANOS QUEST...

How did break the rules ?

Ive responded to your PM. Youre saying that a canon source is something thats considered to be in continuity and then youre saying that youre using Thanos Quest and its interpretation of the Infinity Gauntlet and yet you really still dont see where youre going wrong? 😕

Before you respond to this please read the PM. Dont reply with a massive essay unless it has facts in it proving your point. We both know thats not gonna happen so keep it short ok? Cool. 😉

Originally posted by Desaad
A few quick poitns from someone who hasn't read through this thread in its entirity...

The DCU is a multiverse for all intents and purposes. The Multiverse that we knew was just one subset of the Hypertime multiverse we had going...for all intents and purposes the "main" DCU is just one universe, but there are other extremely difficult to research universes, an infinite number of them...some of them have the multiverse intact, others do not. But its more of an "omniverse" than a multiverse. More than that, the fact that Lucifer refers to his creation as a multiverse and essentially says its the equal of God's universe lends credence to the idea that some multiversal thing is at work.

Either way, Scott Free specifically said that the Ecruos was a threat to the multiverse and I think Metron said that Orion might be the most powerful being in the multiverse.

In terms of how much power it has...I do think it had absolute control over the mind and the soul in a way that the IG did not...notice that Orion was easily able to control a Promethean Giant but Thanos was forced to physically battle the Celestials.

that's a good post. i'm not sure how much clearer it makes anything though . . . 😕

dc's hypertime has always been a bit confusing. doesn't it basically allow someone to traverse future and past of the dcu? i see what you're saying about dcu -- in a practical sense -- being a multiverse, but i'm still pretty certain there remains only one canonical earth in the dcu.

and i'm glad i'm not the only one who read orion. i've referenced it and the arc a couple times in the thread, but i don't think some people even noticed. 'all the arguments' put forth for the ale have not been put forward by 'people', but by me! glad someone else out there seems to have interpreted the ale the same way i initially did. 😉

ps--that was so friggin cool when he commanded the promethean giant! 😄

DCU has the Infinite Earths, which are actually all seperate universes altogether, but they were melded together to make the main DCUniverse. And Hypertime universes are parallel universes in a similar fashion to Marvel's Universe, being different possibilities off of said 'main' universe..

That's the way I take it anyway, they are wholly seperate, but part of the whole, as they are refered to seperately altogether.

The 'omniverse' idea, is supported by references to an omniverse in DC, such as Energy Superman, was said if he could actually fully understand and control all that power he had, would make him "the most powerful being in the omniverse'.

Ive responded to your PM. Youre saying that a canon source is something thats considered to be in continuity and then youre saying that youre using Thanos Quest and its interpretation of the Infinity Gauntlet and yet you really still dont see where youre going wrong?

Before you respond to this please read the PM. Dont reply with a massive essay unless it has facts in it proving your point. We both know thats not gonna happen so keep it short ok? Cool.

I understand your point completely, but try to understand mine,

I am only familiar with the Infinity Gems of IG saga and Thanos Quest, VERY familiar with them, therefore those are the facts I am going to use. Again, I don't see why I cannot, the rules mention nothing about "sticking to retcon"

As long as I clarify which events I am referring to, I don't feel I'm making anything more confusing, or violating any rules.

Once again, I am NOT going to disregard IG and Thanos Quest, two entire graphic novels, just because a Marvel Handbook says so.

In a future debate with YOU, GS, I will only refer to CURRENT facts, even though I know so little about CURRENT Marvel and DC.

However, with other debators, who don't seem to mind my using any references, as long as I clarify where they came from, I will continue debating with them the way I have been doing so.

GS, honestly, you are the only person who had a problem with my posts. No one else, not even MOD, accused me of making invalid posts or disrespecting anyone or anything.

DCU has the Infinite Earths, which are actually all seperate universes altogether, but they were melded together to make the main DCUniverse. And Hypertime universes are parallel universes in a similar fashion to Marvel's Universe, being different possibilities off of said 'main' universe..

So technically there is no DC multiverse ?

That would mean that Spectre's and ALE's multiversal power is only universal...

Okay but question, since when does alternate reality automatically mean seperate universe ? Can't an alternate reality be like a pocket dimension, which is only a slip away from consistant reality ?

How can one travel to an entirely different universe, but then have trouble travelling to another planet within thier own universe ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[B]DCU has the Infinite Earths, which are actually all seperate universes altogether, but they were melded together to make the main DCUniverse. And Hypertime universes are parallel universes in a similar fashion to Marvel's Universe, being different possibilities off of said 'main' universe..

So technically there is no DC multiverse ?

That would mean that Spectre's and ALE's multiversal power is only universal...

Okay but question, since when does alternate reality automatically mean seperate universe ? Can't an alternate reality be like a pocket dimension, which is only a slip away from consistant reality ?

How can one travel to an entirely different universe, but then have trouble travelling to another planet within thier own universe ? [/B]

You're misconstruing all that's been said, it seems.
Reading too deep, or not deep enough/.

Before you respond to this please read the PM. Dont reply with a massive essay unless it has facts in it proving your point. We both know thats not gonna happen so keep it short ok? Cool

And one more thing: Even if you "feel" that a majority of my posts are opinion and not fact, read them again and SEE:

That even when I do put a mere opinion, I always state the facts for what i BASE my opinion on. I sincerely do not pull opinions out of my ass.

Anyways, you debate your way, I'll debate mine. I don't think I should be restricted to speak my voice to only copying down set in stone FACTS that I got from a Marvel Handbook, that kind of "listing down of facts" would be such a DRY post coming from a heavy-minded person like myself.

🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
that's a good post. i'm not sure how much clearer it makes anything though . . . 😕

dc's hypertime has always been a bit confusing. doesn't it basically allow someone to traverse future and past of the dcu? i see what you're saying about dcu -- in a practical sense -- being a multiverse, but i'm still pretty certain there remains only one canonical earth in the dcu.

and i'm glad i'm not the only one who read orion. i've referenced it and the arc a couple times in the thread, but i don't think some people even noticed. 'all the arguments' put forth for the ale have not been put forward by 'people', but by me! glad someone else out there seems to have interpreted the ale the same way i initially did. 😉

ps--that was so friggin cool when he commanded the promethean giant! 😄

Okay but question, since when does alternate reality automatically mean seperate universe ? Can't an alternate reality be like a pocket dimension, which is only a slip away from consistant reality ?

How can one travel to an entirely different universe, but then have trouble travelling to another planet within thier own universe ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Okay but question, since when does alternate reality automatically mean seperate universe ? Can't an alternate reality be like a pocket dimension, which is only a slip away from consistant reality ?

How can one travel to an entirely different universe, but then have trouble travelling to another planet within thier own universe ?

And Flash for example, can move through time and dimensions, but you don't see him on panel running to different planets. It is a feasible idea for someone to be able to move between dimensions and not anywhere inside of a universe.

there are alternate universes in DC thats my view anyway i think the diffrent earths point to that if you asked DC they might say well DUH of course there is a multiverse why you think there is 3 earths DERRR lol no offense to anyone of course and the guy who speaks of the IG thats just not right you cant just use a past continuity for your own ends it doesnt work that way the thread starter can do that but must post it like saying Thanos quest IG or pre crisis beyonder then youd know the diffrence but that hasnt happend your just being rude to everyone here by continuing with this thanos question IG since we arent even using it.

Okay Okay this is getting tiring.

I already my points numerous times, if anyone WANTS to consider them do so, if not, don't.

I won't continue to argue for IG any further, I guess ALE wins.

Even though i also sed that much a million times already,.

Happy ?

Good

I'm re=posting this incase some missed it,

It is from Cosmic Odyssey and Jim Starlin(writer)and Mike Mignola(artist)only work canon, although it is a mini-graphic novel, the story is fascinating.

The Anti-Life Equation is a conscious entity, aware of it's own existence, and it's power is on an unimaginable scale.

The "equation" itself,(that can be harnessed and was carried by Mr Miracle is but a portion of it's entirety).

When it was born(ALE)it's birth caused a two-hundred-square-light-year area of space to be reduced to cosmic dust.

Darkseid also said about the ALE, "only a fraction of this nightmare's power will be enough to bring my reality to it's knees", obviously meaning his universe or perhaps his multiverse, since when he said this he was in the ALE's other-dimensional realm.

By the way, towards the end of that series Dr Fate - HighFather - Orion - Etrigen and even Darkseid join together to form a unity called the "Cosmic Cinque of Power", this union controlled by Dr Fate, was powerful enough to destroy realities, and yet even it was not enough to defeat the ALE, they had to fly away for their lives, literally, and destroy the universe between theirs and the ALE so it would not have annihilated them.

The ALE, it's sentient entity form, according to this series(Cosmic Odyssey)is beyond the comprehension of even so-called "gods"

like when Metron said of it:

"We of New Genesis have the effrontary(nerve,balls,cohones)to call ourselves gods, now I know what a god trully is, next to this deity, I am nothing"

but again, i'm not sure that story is canon. orion AND odyssey can't both be canon .. .

hmm, if there is a dc multiverse, what was the point of coie?? the infinite earths were eliminated, so . . . when did they come back and where were they?? that still remains a question. in answer to above post -- i think if you asked dc they would say there is NOT a multiverse in dc. i'm not sure about jun's idea of hypertime, either. hypertime is something i'm still not sure of. but i still say there is only one canonical earth in the dcu. unless someone else has proof to say otherwise? 😕

Does a MULTIVERSE define as a collection of similar universes ?

Or could it be defined simply as a comic book company where its stories take place in more than one universe?

Because in Crossgen, I don't think there was a "multiverse". There were only two universes shown, and these universes were COMPLETELY different; by thier physics, life forms, structures, etc.

There was no "TWO EARTHS" deal like they do in DC and Marvel. That kinda stuff I always thought was just "alternate realities" not necessarily different universes.

Even in Top Cow/Image, Dawn was shown in a special issue of WitchBlade, even though Dawn does not exist on the SAME EArth that WitchBlade does (its evident if you read both titles)....but does that mean they are from totally different universes ? Maybe Dawn and WitchBlade both live in the same planet Earth, but on slightly different alternate realities...BTW...in Dawn's graphic novels the setting of Earth is always different.

In the first graphic novel entitled Lucifer's Halo the Earth was in a POST Apocalyptic setting. In the SECOND graphic novel, which took place AFTER the first, the EArth was "back to normal" with no mention of Armaggedon as if it never happened.

How would you guys actually define a multiverse ?

BUMP

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ive responded to your PM. Youre saying that a canon source is something thats considered to be in continuity and then youre saying that youre using Thanos Quest and its interpretation of the Infinity Gauntlet and yet you really still dont see where youre going wrong?

Before you respond to this please read the PM. Dont reply with a massive essay unless it has facts in it proving your point. We both know thats not gonna happen so keep it short ok? Cool.

I understand your point completely, but try to understand mine,

I am only familiar with the Infinity Gems of IG saga and Thanos Quest, VERY familiar with them, therefore those are the facts I am going to use. Again, I don't see why I cannot, the rules mention nothing about "sticking to retcon"[/B]

If thats the only interpretation youre familiar with then take some initiative and research into the featured comabatnts like most other posters do around here.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
As long as I clarify which events I am referring to, I don't feel I'm making anything more confusing, or violating any rules.

You may not feel you are but you are as i have highlighted. Thats the crux of the matter.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Once again, I am NOT going to disregard IG and Thanos Quest, two entire graphic novels, just because a Marvel Handbook says so.

It isnt just the Handbook that says so, its the handbook and on panel references which dismiss your favoured interpretation. The reason you should dismiss their interpretation however is not only because your info is outdated but because its not your thread to post in as you please.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
In a future debate with YOU, GS, I will only refer to CURRENT facts, even though I know so little about CURRENT Marvel and DC.

Thats something you should do in all debates unless otherwise specified by the threadmaker. You registered and agreed to abide by all the rules. Picking and choosing what ones suit your posting habits is not in line with that. If you know little about current marvel and DC then thats your problem, Dont make it anyone elses by posting outdated irrelevance. Take a backseat and learn from those who are clued up or better still ask questions. You have no excuse.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
However, with other debators, who don't seem to mind my using any references, as long as I clarify where they came from, I will continue debating with them the way I have been doing so.

And by doing so you will continue to disrespect those who do follow the rules whether you feel you are doing so or not. Whether they comment on it or not.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
GS, honestly, you are the only person who had a problem with my posts. No one else, not even MOD, accused me of making invalid posts or disrespecting anyone or anything.

No your posts arent invalid, theyre just based on outdated references, meaning theyre not entirely relevant, leading to you making claims about one of the combatants which are no longer the truth as per current continuity. Whether others comment on it or not is not the point. Youre ignoring established forum etiquette because apparently you feel your knowledge wouldnt allow you to participate as much as you'd like if you did follow the rules. Im sorry, whose problem is that? Do something about it.

To be honest it doesnt really matter what interpretation you use now that i think about it. Allow me to tell you why. The Infinity Gems as per the outdated interpretation act as conduits for the power of the Infinity Being. The power that was stated on panel to have manifested (upon the I Beings suicide) into all that is 616. So to be honest theres no real difference, no power advantage, because the I Gems in both interpretations are just tapping into the ambient energies of 616 a universe which as established on panel is very much a closed system, is very much finite. With that in mind, please carry on to argue as you have been doing, it really doesnt matter anymore. 😉

Thats something you should do in all debates unless otherwise specified by the threadmaker. You registered and agreed to abide by all the rules. Picking and choosing what ones suit your posting habits is not in line with that. If you know little about current marvel and DC then thats your problem, Dont make it anyone elses by posting outdated irrelevance. Take a backseat and learn from those who are clued up or better still ask questions. You have no excuse.

Dude, GS, I already reported our argument to the MOD Digi, our entire debate about whether or not I can or should use classic IG in my arguments, and he said there is nothing wrong with that.

HE said i am breaking no rules, as long as i am not being offensive to everyone else here, that I can argue any way shape or form I please with any information I can gather.

If he tells me such, then who are you to tell me otherwise?

Ne ways who cares....i made all the points i had to make, I'm BORED and done with this thread.

[B[To be honest it doesnt really matter what interpretation you use now that i think about it. Allow me to tell you why. The Infinity Gems as per the outdated interpretation act as conduits for the power of the Infinity Being. The power that was stated on panel to have manifested (upon the I Beings suicide) into all that is 616. So to be honest theres no real difference, no power advantage, because the I Gems in both interpretations are just tapping into the ambient energies of 616 a universe which as established on panel is very much a closed system, is very much finite. With that in mind, please carry on to argue as you have been doing, it really doesnt matter anymore[/B]

This is the first actual post you make to me that isn't telling me what to say and what my limits are. In fact, this is the only argument you made that I respect, cuz instead of telling me "what to do", you are directly addressing my point, instead of disregarding it, and telling me why you think I am wrong.

Congrats.....NOW you have gotten my attention, and you're argument against me is something I greatly consider.

You've partially convinced me that I may be wrong about Classic IG's ability to beat current ALE.

Now was that so hard? You could have just argued this a LONG time ago.....

😉 😉

well they should have told you it was wrong to use classic IG cause thats total bull there is no more classic IG, its been reconned its sad but true, and only the person who starts the thread should have the ability to state if it can be classic or current, if we did this running back and forth of continuity with characters like galactus who's powers fluctuate, and beings like beyonder who had a drastic power level change, who is the thread starter if he wants to have it as a classic IG then let him state it if he wants it to be current IG then leave it alone.

Why bother Mider ???

I already said I'm done arguing about it, have you read my post?

I already sent a post directed at GS (hope you read it) that i grow bored of this argument, i already made my points, and i accepted HIS last argument, because he debated ALE against classic IG, actually addressing my argument, therefore convincing me i may be wrong.

Mider, it doesnt matter if you think its bull. The MOD himself said I could do it, and i was in no way violating anything. I don't care if you thnk so, in fact what if i beleive that you and GS were violating my ability to debate my trying to forcefully LIMIT what i have to work with?

The Mod sed i do not need to submit to such limits, so why should i ?

BECAUSE YOU AND GS SAY SO ?

I DONT TNK SO

I already ASKED TALLIS, but he never responded. Therefore , SO FAR, i was in no wrong doing.

ne ways who cares, can we just let it go ?