DN Luke vs DE Sidious, Darth Malak and DN Kyp Durron

The saber fight would go Luke's way, as he is above and beyond all 3 of these guys.

Unsupported assumption.

Indeed, I only see him being above Kit in saber combat. He had to have help to disarm Sidious, who held him down with one hand moments before.

There's also the unfortunate (for Luke) fact that he's had very little formal training with living instructors of the weapon. You people think he's good because he beat the Vong. Well, big deal. Who's to say that the PT-and-earlier Jedi wouldn't do the same, especially since they spent their lives training with the weapon?

"Oh, but the Vong ate Jedi!" - Yeah. They beat the crap out of Luke's Jedi. Again, that doesn't establish that the PT Jedi would get hammered in the same manner.

Kit=Kyp, by the way.

On Obsidian they they think Force storm is called Lightning storm

Originally posted by IKC
Kit=Kyp, by the way.

I thought you meant Kit Fisto, and was wondering what the hell you were talking about.

dance dance revolution

Originally posted by IKC
Unsupported assumption.

Indeed, I only see him being above Kit in saber combat. He had to have help to disarm Sidious, who held him down with one hand moments before.

There's also the unfortunate (for Luke) fact that he's had very little formal training with living instructors of the weapon. You people think he's good because he beat the Vong. Well, big deal. Who's to say that the PT-and-earlier Jedi wouldn't do the same, especially since they spent their lives training with the weapon?

"Oh, but the Vong ate Jedi!" - Yeah. They beat the crap out of Luke's Jedi. Again, that doesn't establish that the PT Jedi would get hammered in the same manner.

What do you mean help IKC? DN Luke is DE Luke+20-30 years of more training, so where aer you getting your information from? He'd skull**** the trio unless Sidious force storms him

Help inasmuch as Leia boosted his abilities to the point he could disarm Sidious.

And would you please learn the ****ing definition of "potential?" Luke had to combine his full potential with that of Leia and the unborn Anakin to overpower DE Sidious.

It doesn't matter how much of his potential he's realized by DN. It's not enough to beat the power that DE Sidious can put out.

Please show me the scan. So with your logic, DE Sidous>All except the ancient sith.. Please.. Show me the scan where it combined everybody's full potential, and even that is not a convincing argument when you have a Luke who has trained for 30+ more years, and gained an infinite amount of knowledge.. So again, with your logic, DE Sidious>everybody except Ancient Sith, and I'm sure you understand that's beyond faulty. Read the comics too while youre at it..

Oh wait, I forgot. With their combined potential they DID beat Sidious.. So how in the world are you going to say that Luke can't defeat him by himself? Was it necessary to combine all 3? Can you quantify the power of each skywalker? At the end, I think you haven't read the comics and you fail to understand that at THAT point in time, Luke was no match for Sidious, but come NJO and on, he was beyond him.

Well i think he means DE Sidious > All but Ancient Sith AND Exar Kun.

tdtd, in a way you do potray Luke as a god, but you haven't really established how luke would even beat Exar Kun.

Honestly, I don't think Luke's Jedi should be that powerful. Luke had to rebuild the whole damn Order, study like crazy to regain lost knowledge (find more stuff)... He doesn't have as much as the PT guys.

However, some of their "feats" in the NJO are quite simply ridiculous. Either they're just a gifted generation or they're getting a nonsensical power boost from horny writers.

And I'd just like to comment on one thing: Luke was aided by the Force Potential of 2.5 people to beat Palpatine, but we don't know how much of that was needed to beat the Emperor in the first place.

It's possible that it took less than a full potential Luke to defeat Palpatine. Leia's spell could have made it like an overkill. We see Luke floor Sidious in like, 4 panels.

Going by what I read in the NJO and the DN, I'm inclined to think so.

I don't portray Luke as a God, the books do. To Say Sidious is even on par with any Luke above DE is trying to diminish the character. How Luke would beat Kun? Throw him into a black hole? Make himself undetected by the force, which I don't exactly understand lol. He did block those AT-AT blasts, so the Kun blasts are debateable.

And Razielim I said that all along, but nobody could provide scans to back up their argument. DE Sidious was superior to DE Luke at THAT stage of Luke's life. Once he found Ossus and gained knowledge for another 15+ years, he became above most STar wars Characters. That's not me making him look like a God, that's a fact.

One thing I forgot to mention to end this thread on a high note..
George Lucas said Luke became what Anakin should have become, and that although Anakin was the chosen one, Luke had just as much potential as him. So with your logic(assuming DE even states anything similiar to combined fullest potential not being able to beat Sidious), then Sidious>The Chosen One, aka false beyond belief, considering the chosen one had the greatest potential ever. Now if DE did say all this(which I doubt because I've read the comics repeatedly), then it would undoubtedly be contradicting GL's own words, and GL's word is absolute canon, ergooooooooo, it is false, and Luke's potential was limitless, which is why he became uber l337 and uber gay.. Thank you, that is all. O'Doyle rules.

Tdtd, you realize your statement(s) don't make sense, and pretty much contradict each other?

For example:

Luke had just as much potential as him.

Okay, if Luke had just as much potential then how can you state the following:

considering the chosen one had the greatest potential ever.

How can Luke have the same amount of ("just as much"😉 potential as Anakin, if Anakin had the greatest potential?

He did block those AT-AT blasts, so the Kun blasts are debateable.

How so? How are AT-AT blasts the same as blasts coming from a Dark side weapon, powered by the Force, and rage? It's somewhat like a false analogy, they have completely different properties.

Originally posted by IKC
Help inasmuch as Leia boosted his abilities to the point he could disarm Sidious.

And would you please learn the ****ing definition of "potential?" Luke had to combine his full potential with that of Leia and the unborn Anakin to overpower DE Sidious.

It doesn't matter how much of his potential he's realized by DN. It's not enough to beat the power that DE Sidious can put out.

I love that constant Luke bashing.

Would you please learn the difference between "having potential" and "having control over said potential" in terms of the force ? Obi-Wan was nearly thrown out of the temple because having very little potential. Then you have Anakin who's force potential was unmatched in the PT Jedi order. And suddenly they stalemate in a force contest when they try to force push each other on Mustafar. Using your argument Anakin should have pushed Obi-Wan into the next wall as well as he should have exterminated Dooku in AotC.

And now ask yourself how much "control" DE Luke, a nearly untrained Leia and an unborn Anakin Solo could posessed compared to a nearly 100-year-old Sith Lord who rivaled Yoda, a 900-year-old Jedi Master. Next to nothing I'd say. And this is why it needed their combined power to defeat him. By any other logic TPM Anakin should be able to destroy Yoda in a force contest because "having more potential". Hilarious.

There's also the unfortunate (for Luke) fact that he's had very little formal training with living instructors of the weapon. You people think he's good because he beat the Vong. Well, big deal. Who's to say that the PT-and-earlier Jedi wouldn't do the same, especially since they spent their lives training with the weapon?

There's also the unfortunate (for you) fact, that he had access to a complete Jedi training facility (the Chu'unthor), several Jedi holocrons, and parts of the library on Ossus. And yes - singlehandly destroying an entire army of beings that have lightsaber resistant armour and weapons, destroying their elite warriors and their toughest warrior - when all of those beings are completely immune to force attacks (so much that the force lightning arched away from them) is pretty impressive.

And I love how you ignore that some of Luke's students and Luke himself did train under and defeated actual "living PT Jedi". Kyle Katarn tooled people that were trained in PT times (Jerec), Mara Jade (who is clearly part of the NJO) and Kam Solusar were trained under Sidious and Vader - and of course you have Vima-Da-Boda, a 200 year old PT Jedi. And Luke's saber skill is above them all so much that he thinks (DN) that he can fight as good as all other Jedi using his offhand and he killed Lomi Plo, who nearly killed Mara and Jacen both at once, with "a flick of his wrist" in a lightsaber duel.

But sure...any post-ROTJ version of Luke is just ROTJ Luke who grew older (but didn't develop any saber skills or force powers) and so everyone else would curbstomp him. Especially after he has nearly 40 years of training and real combat experience under his belt.

Thank you, someone here with actual common sense and no hatred toward the Luke character.. And Sama, I'm not contradicting myself. Explain to me why it's hard to believe that they both had the same potential, yet Anakin had the midichlorians or whatever, and was the chosen one, while Luke had his father in him and had the same or almost as much potential? GL is the one who said Luke became what his father was supposed to become, and that he had either as much potential or almost as much. Either way it defeats this imaginary logic of "oh he lost to Sidious with combined force potential of blah blah blah".. Please.. There's way too much Luke bashing on here.

Sama, I'm not contradicting myself. Explain to me why it's hard to believe that they both had the same potential,

Because if you say that they had the same potential, how is Anakin the one with the greatest potential?

It's contradictory.

Greatest = superlative (surpassing or superior to all others), therefore there is no way they had the same potential if Anakin's was the greatest.

Sure, Luke's may have been close, but it's illogical for them to be the same.

I meant close, my mistake, somehow I stayed on topic of Luke being what Anakin was supposed to be, forgive my A.D.D. Either way it contradicts IKC's nonsense about Luke's potential not being enough to beat Sidious.

Let me expand a bit on what you said, if it's ok, Nai:
Luke, without any Vong sense manages to affect Vong...with the Force.

He defeated Executor Sedriss with a flick of his wrist...and Executor Sedriss was shown to match Ood Bnar for power moments later when they destroyed eachother.

He killed Lomi Plo, and bested Raynar Thul...and Lomi was only fighting with...the entire power of the entirety of the Kiliks, with the whole hive mind thing?

Not only was Jerec PT trained, he was a skilled master and Jocasta Nu's ex-padawan, herself a former council member. Not only that, Luke demolished Lumiya and Shadowspawn on seperate occasions, both fighting him-confirmed in Lumiya's case, suspected in Shadow's case- Ancient Sith stuff.

And despite what anyone says about size only mattering in your mind, Luke's apparently managed to overcome THAT weakness.

Damn good post though, Nai.

I agree, Nai's posts are more descriptive than mine will ever be. Either way Luke takes this.

Nice job spending half your post on an irrelevant misdirection and proving you don't understand the definition of "potential" either, Nai.

Point: Leia, Luke, and unborn Anakin had to use their full potential to defeat Sidious. Understand what that means? They used what power they could have realized to its fullest. In other words, they could never exert more power.

Given that, no matter how much training and knowledge Luke has achieved by DN, it doesn't matter - his full potential alone is not enough to defeat Sidious.

There's also the unfortunate (for you) fact, that he had access to a complete Jedi training facility (the Chu'unthor), several Jedi holocrons, and parts of the library on Ossus. And yes - singlehandly destroying an entire army of beings that have lightsaber resistant armour and weapons, destroying their elite warriors and their toughest warrior - when all of those beings are completely immune to force attacks (so much that the force lightning arched away from them) is pretty impressive.

Chu'unthor - Any living, breathing instructors of lightsaber combat aboard? I thought not. I can learn to fight with a sword from a book, too. Doesn't make me any good. I can learn to fight with a bunch of other neophytes too. Say I kick the shit out of them - does that make me a god of combat? Thought not.

Jedi holocrons - Unless they projected living instructors of the weapon (oh, and you'd have to prove what the holocrons contained, by the way. Saying "zOMG HE HAD HOLOCRONS" is not an argument) your point is rather moot.

Ossus - Yeah. "Parts of the library" that got fried by a supernova. "Parts of the library" that was, in its prime, so enormous that the frenzied efforts of hundreds of Jedi to rescue the precious knowledge therein "wasn't enough." Oh, you also run into the problem of proving what he learned from it, again.

Killing the Vong - Again, you only mark this as impressive because other so-called "Jedi" got their shit ruined by them. You've still failed to establish that real (i.e. PT and earlier) Jedi would have similar results.

And I love how you ignore that some of Luke's students and Luke himself did train under and defeated actual "living PT Jedi".

Okay, let's go down the list then!

Kyle Katarn tooled people that were trained in PT times (Jerec)

Tooled? He tooled Jerec? Yeah. That isn't biased language.

Yeah. That somehow means that Kyle "I found a lightsaber in a garage and that makes me a Jedi!" Katarn is great, rather than that Jerec sucked ass.

Mara Jade

Oh, right, the same Mara Jade that lost her already-weak Force senses after the Emperor died? The same Mara Jade that was trained as an assassin who rather than a full-fledged lightsaber duelist (indeed, often using other weapons than a lightsaber)? Yeah. She's a shining star of Old Jedi Order combat skills.

Kam Solusar

Oh, you mean the Kam Solusar who "lacked formal training" under the Old Jedi Order, ran away for thirty years, then came back and was captured and converted by Sedriss? Yeah. Because he had a lot of formal training under Palpatine, I'll tell you that right now! You're not just hocking some unestablished bullshit!

Oh, didn't you say Kam was trained under Sidious and Vader? How, may I ask, was Kam trained if Vader was dead by the time he returned to the galaxy proper?

Vima-Da-Boda

Again, what lightsaber combat was she teaching, hm? I seem to recall her giving her own weapon away. Looks like you're still not establishing a damned thing.

And Luke's saber skill is above them all so much that he thinks (DN) that he can fight as good as all other Jedi using his offhand

Not surprising inasmuch as he trained them all (minus a handful who have about as much or less experience than he does).

and he killed Lomi Plo, who nearly killed Mara and Jacen both at once, with "a flick of his wrist" in a lightsaber duel.

Hm. Insofar as I can see, neither of them are PT Jedi. Still don't see you establishing dick about Skywalker's lightsaber abilities.