Originally posted by Allankles
So this is what's convinced Leonidas that Arishem > Galactus? Not much to go on.
nah, that's not it. it's the way the celestials have almost always interacted in books. tiamut is only a recent example. the way arishem was immune to all the skyfathers when odin has been said to be near g in the past. the fact that g's powers fluctuate like crazy. the fact that thanos was able to fling g across a moon with a single blast (and not a WEAK galactus either . . .)
simply put, celestials do not have all the low showings of galactus (though they do have a couple--not arishem however.)
True the celestials do not have the low feats of galactus, but u have to consider that not only does he have more appearances than they do but also that his powerlevel is directly dependant on his hunger. His powerlevel will then obviously fluctuate considerably more than theirs because of his varying hunger levels throughout his portrayals. Further 90% of Gs low showings have come while hungry and hence while he was weakened.
IMO a well fed galactus is above a celestial. IIRC kubik placed him above the celestials in the cosmic power hierachy. Further his status in the universe would also suggest such. While status does not always play a part in powerlevels, many times it does especially in regards to marvel high end cosmics. Also in terms of descriptions of their powerlevels, galactus is superior. IIRC a fullpowered G was stated to be equal to Eternity and in annihilation it was revealed that he contained enough power to destroy both the 616 universe and negative zone simultaneously. Finally in terms of actual feats imo Galactus is at least on par with the Celestials. Feats such as vaporizing in watcher while weakened, destroying galaxie in his fight with tyrant, teleporting an entire galaxy to another area within time and space etc make him pretty even with the celestials purely featwise. However it is the totality of these factors that lead me to believe that G>>Celestial.
Originally posted by leonidas
nah, that's not it. it's the way the celestials have almost always interacted in books. tiamut is only a recent example. the way arishem was immune to all the skyfathers when odin has been said to be near g in the past. the fact that g's powers fluctuate like crazy. the fact that thanos was able to fling g across a moon with a single blast (and not a WEAK galactus either . . .)simply put, celestials do not have all the low showings of galactus (though they do have a couple--not arishem however.)
you only look on 1 side of the coin. The celestials don't have Galactus' high showings either. And every time they act, the Celestials always act as a group. I'm hard-pressed to find any scans of any 1 Celestial holding it's own against anyone higher than Odin, and possibly a watcher if you count exitar prepping to take down "the One." If you've got them, please put them up to support your argument.
You can't focus on the low showings alone.
And if we go by statements such as "odin has been said to be near g in the past" well that was some 40 years ago.
There's literally multiple statements from modern times:
1. Galactus is "the universe's most powerful creature" (annihilation #2)
2. Galactus is "the metamorphosed embodiment of a cosmos" (FF 522 or 523, i forget) and just to clear away any misunderstanding, "cosmos" is defined to be synonymous with "universe" vs. Celestials being birthed from just a galaxy
3. Current Thor with the odinforce refuses to face Galactus (BRB Godhunter #1)
And the way people are throwing around Galactus "fearing" tiamut is questionable at best. IMO it's indicative of what Tiamut actually did to Galactus, in terms of altering Galactus' hunger, not so much Tiamut's powers. G is afraid of ever being in that state of uncontrollable hunger.
There's two logic reasons that back up my interpretation
1. Tiamut's personal power was insufficient to achieve his goals in the black celestial arc. He had to use Galactus as the weapon. Because he used Galactus, and not his own power, this implicitly means Tiamut didn't have the means to achieve his goals without acquiring a greater power to actualize his desires (which was basically to be master of reality)
2. Galactus was preparing to directly confront
Pre-Retcon Beyonder
Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet
Thanos with the HOTI
Yet somehow he's afraid of 1 celestial's power? 😬 More likely, he's reminded of the uncontrollable hunger when Tiamut awoke, and that made him feel fear.
Originally posted by Tenebrous
you only look on 1 side of the coin. The celestials don't have Galactus' high showings either. And every time they act, the Celestials always act as a group. I'm hard-pressed to find any scans of any 1 Celestial holding it's own against anyone higher than Odin, and possibly a watcher if you count exitar prepping to take down "the One." If you've got them, please put them up to support your argument.You can't focus on the low showings alone.
And if we go by statements such as "odin has been said to be near g in the past" well that was some 40 years ago.
There's literally multiple statements from modern times:
1. Galactus is "the universe's most powerful creature" (annihilation #2)
2. Galactus is "the metamorphosed embodiment of a cosmos" (FF 522 or 523, i forget) and just to clear away any misunderstanding, "cosmos" is defined to be synonymous with "universe" vs. Celestials being birthed from just a galaxy
3. Current Thor with the odinforce refuses to face Galactus (BRB Godhunter #1)And the way people are throwing around Galactus "fearing" tiamut is questionable at best. IMO it's indicative of what Tiamut actually did to Galactus, in terms of altering Galactus' hunger, not so much Tiamut's powers. G is afraid of ever being in that state of uncontrollable hunger.
There's two logic reasons that back up my interpretation
1. Tiamut's personal power was insufficient to achieve his goals in the black celestial arc. He had to use Galactus as the weapon. Because he used Galactus, and not his own power, this implicitly means Tiamut didn't have the means to achieve his goals without acquiring a greater power to actualize his desires (which was basically to be master of reality)
2. Galactus was preparing to directly confront
Pre-Retcon Beyonder
Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet
Thanos with the HOTIYet somehow he's afraid of 1 celestial's power? 😬 More likely, he's reminded of the uncontrollable hunger when Tiamut awoke, and that made him feel fear.
for all i hear of the 'galactus=eternity' bit, i've never actually SEEN that scan. do you have it or know where it is? they were revealed as SIBLINGS, but sibling by NO MEANS equates to 'equal'. anyone out there actually have the scan that says they are equal . . .?
as far as tiamut--the idea that tiamut was ABLE to alter galactus's powers alone speaks volumes. as logical as your own theory is the theory that g was afraid the DC would simply alter his hunger AGAIN. or perhaps abuse his powers in some other way.
and the celestials ALSO took part in battling the IG and HOTI.
the current thor refusing to battle him really says nothing. thor understands there is no point. AND he's weakened. nothing in his refusal could be taken as fear, imo.
as for the other quotes--g has ALREADY died. what happened? he became a star. nothing more, nothing less. we don't really need to worry about the hearsay since we've SEEN the results of his death.
if you want to believe g is the most powerful being in the universe, that is entirely up to you of course. i think he's AMONG them. a hypothetical 'full-power' g MAY be, but since he's never been seen, we've no idea what that even is.
someone said most of his low showings are because he's hungry--well . . . he's ALWAYS hungry. that IS a weakness. he DOES have more showings, but so many of his showings are not very good. even looking at the black galaxy arc in thor--high evolutionary once battled g directly 1on1. g won, but was forced to dodge an attack. the celestials never even NOTICED the evolutionary, and it was said they were so far beyond him that their power was unimaginable. in general, taking all these things into account, celestials appear to be>galactus imo.
Originally posted by leonidas
as for the other quotes--g has ALREADY died. what happened? he became a star. nothing more, nothing less. we don't really need to worry about the hearsay since we've SEEN the results of his death.someone said most of his low showings are because he's hungry--well . . . he's ALWAYS hungry. that IS a weakness. he DOES have more showings, but so many of his showings are not very good. even looking at the black galaxy arc in thor--high evolutionary once battled g directly 1on1. g won, but was forced to dodge an attack. the celestials never even NOTICED the evolutionary, and it was said they were so far beyond him that their power was unimaginable. in general, taking all these things into account, celestials appear to be>galactus imo.
I believe the instances in annihilation and DEath of galactus are entirely different. In annihilation, Annihilus planned to se G as a COSMIC BOMB which wold subsequently destroy both the NG and the 616 universe. HEnce he weaponized galactus and planned to have the energy within him released all at one in a cataclysmic explosion. That is entirely different from what happened when he died. In that case, he transformed into a star and his energy would begin to gradually and continuously radiate infinitely. Its not simply that the death of galactus that would destroy the two universes but had to do with the specific purpose annihiluus had for him. The death of galactus in a previous story arc therefore cannot be used to somehow discredit his power described in annihilation.
Further, IIRC galactus has to feed once a month or something close to that. Now while it is true that his hunger is fairly continuous, the level of hunger varies. G not having eaten for a week or so would still be considerably more powerful than a G who was practically starving. Most of his low feats have come during periods o suchf extreme hunger (induced by plot majority of the times and hence PIS ) and such a state would not be his standard condition when fighting a KMC match. RAther, it is assumed that G is fighting at his optimum condition as seen in comics.
Originally posted by Naija boy
I believe the instances in annihilation and DEath of galactus are entirely different. In annihilation, Annihilus planned to se G as a COSMIC BOMB which wold subsequently destroy both the NG and the 616 universe. HEnce he weaponized galactus and planned to have the energy within him released all at one in a cataclysmic explosion. That is entirely different from what happened when he died. In that case, he transformed into a star and his energy would begin to gradually and continuously radiate infinitely. Its not simply that the death of galactus that would destroy the two universes but had to do with the specific purpose annihiluus had for him. The death of galactus in a previous story arc therefore cannot be used to somehow discredit his power described in annihilation.Further, IIRC galactus has to feed once a month or something close to that. Now while it is true that his hunger is fairly continuous, the level of hunger varies. G not having eaten for a week or so would still be considerably more powerful than a G who was practically starving. Most of his low feats have come during periods o suchf extreme hunger (induced by plot majority of the times and hence PIS ) and such a state would not be his standard condition when fighting a KMC match. RAther, it is assumed that G is fighting at his optimum condition as seen in comics.
and just HOW annihilus was planning on doing that--IF he could have--is unknown as well, so it's impossible to say it would happen anytime. perhaps the process is what would have allowed such an explosion. perhaps it was in conjunction with the cosmic control rod and the q-bands. we don't know. and wouldn't that have simply released abraxas again? but never a mention of that. since it didn't happen, and we didn't know HOW it would have been brought about, it's hearsay. 😬
and 'standard' galactus, IS hungry galactus . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
and just HOW annihilus was planning on doing that--IF he could have--is unknown as well, so it's impossible to say it would happen anytime. perhaps the process is what would have allowed such an explosion. perhaps it was in conjunction with the cosmic control rod and the q-bands. we don't know. and wouldn't that have simply released abraxas again? but never a mention of that. since it didn't happen, and we didn't know HOW it would have been brought about, it's hearsay. 😬and 'standard' galactus, IS hungry galactus . . .
Annihilus was using galactus' own technology to slowly harness his energy. Moondragon then revealed that he intended to use the enrgy within galactus to destroy both 616 and the N zone rather than to feed as he had originally claimed. In his own words he was going to use galactus to cause a conflagration in which 616 would be consumed.
Now while its true that we dont know the exact specifics of how the explosion would come about we do know the Galactus' energy was the most crucial aspect of the equation. Further regardless of how he would cause it to explode, we know that it would be galactus' energy exploding. Its like how there are different ways of detonating TNT which vary in effectiveness but in the end the but come explosion time, the TNT itself is the most crucial factor. This isnt to say that galactus can replicate such an event in this scenario or but just to give an example of the kind of energy he contains. Also the success of Annihilus' plan was confirmed by thanos who has very high credibility. Further the rest of the entire annihilation arc was geared towards freeing galactus from his entrapment which further suggests that it certainly would have worked. Therefore, though it didnt actually happen, there is a lot more to support the plans success than its failure.
ALso in my other post i explained that while Galactus hunger was continuous (even after having jst eaten), the levels of his hunger vary greatly. And most of his low showings come from points of extreme hunger. (which had been induced by the plot). Therefore the combination of the fact that he was suffering from plot induced weakness and the fact that the rules refer to him fighting at "optimum" condition, means that galactus wont be fighting at such high hunger levels in a forum fight (though he might still be hungry since as u said he is always hungry) . A majority of his low showings come from those periods of extreme hunger and thus automatically become irrelevant.
Originally posted by tru-marvell
So then u guys are saying that Odin is not even worthy to clean Galactus's boots and helmet horns? I strongly disagree...and as soon as my boss leaves I'm sure I can find proof that a celestial is at least equal to normal Galactus 📖
This.
The team of Skyfathers that mounted an attack should certainly be capable of fighting Galactus at normal levels. And IMO, the Asgard inhabited Asgardian Destroyer should defeat Galactus at regular levels..
Full power Galactus is another story, but he's also more of a hypthetical since we'll probably never see a truly full power G. Not if we want to keep seeing the 611-verse...
Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
you only look on 1 side of the coin. The celestials don't have Galactus' high showings either. And every time they act, the Celestials always act as a group. I'm hard-pressed to find any scans of any 1 Celestial holding it's own against anyone higher than Odin, and possibly a watcher if you count exitar prepping to take down "the One." If you've got them, please put them up to support your argument.You can't focus on the low showings alone.
And if we go by statements such as "odin has been said to be near g in the past" well that was some 40 years ago.
There's literally multiple statements from modern times:
1. Galactus is "the universe's most powerful creature" (annihilation #2)
2. Galactus is "the metamorphosed embodiment of a cosmos" (FF 522 or 523, i forget) and just to clear away any misunderstanding, "cosmos" is defined to be synonymous with "universe" vs. Celestials being birthed from just a galaxy
3. Current Thor with the odinforce refuses to face Galactus (BRB Godhunter #1)And the way people are throwing around Galactus "fearing" tiamut is questionable at best. IMO it's indicative of what Tiamut actually did to Galactus, in terms of altering Galactus' hunger, not so much Tiamut's powers. G is afraid of ever being in that state of uncontrollable hunger.
There's two logic reasons that back up my interpretation
1. Tiamut's personal power was insufficient to achieve his goals in the black celestial arc. He had to use Galactus as the weapon. Because he used Galactus, and not his own power, this implicitly means Tiamut didn't have the means to achieve his goals without acquiring a greater power to actualize his desires (which was basically to be master of reality)
2. Galactus was preparing to directly confront
Pre-Retcon Beyonder
Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet
Thanos with the HOTIYet somehow he's afraid of 1 celestial's power? 😬 More likely, he's reminded of the uncontrollable hunger when Tiamut awoke, and that made him feel fear.
In an possible future, 616 Galactus destroyed the Omniverse battling Ecce,
then Galactus opened his chest plate and out poured the next Marvel Universe.