Urizen VS Spectre

Originally posted by Takion
.The Spectre is a Heaven or Hell being remember? It is attached onto The Word who commands it. The Word(Logos) is God/The Presence/Yahweh in the flesh. If The Word wants Urizen to die he will die.

No he won't. Urizen cannot die, its totally impossible. If Image's God can't kill him, then how would DC's ?

[QUOTE=6498160]Originally posted by Juntai
. How about.. create Urizen a new reality and trap him in it?
Erase him from existance.
Meld his being into the fabric of the universe.
Turn him into something else, like a log, and then chop the log in two, 100 times per second, for the rest of eternity.

You don't really seem to be debating about anything other than a hypothesis of what this character is capable of, to say he can beat one of the comics nigh omnipotent characters with no real facts to present is very difficult to pose an a serious debate against. [/QUOTE}

First off thanks for actually answering the question Juntai.

Now....my response

Erase him from Existance.....Impossible. Such a thing cannot happen to Urizen.

Meld his being into the fabric of the Universe....which is actually what Urizen was almost going to do...he FEEDS on spiritual energy, and grows stronger by the amount. There is NO ENERGY that he cannot devour, whether it be Hellish, Heavenly, or Cosmic. This wouldn't hurt Urizen, it would probably only strengthen him.

Turn him into something else like a log, then chop the log in two: I'm not sure this would even work. Whose to say Full Power Spectre can do this to a full power Urizen ? Even if he COULD do this, Urizen wouldn't be dead. I'm not certain if REALITY ALTERING abilities would work on him, otherwise the GOD of IMAGE would have done this easily, instead of having Heaven to make an alliance with Hell to engage in a battle which could have destroyed the Universe that he created.

Create a new reality and trap him in it:.....seems like the only possible solution in my opinion. However, ur right about one thing: Urizen's full capablities are uncertain, but I imagine that Urizen himself at full strength must have been God's equivelent or higher for two reasons:

1) Like I said before, instead of finishing the problem of Urizen by himself, it was absolutely necessary to have Heaven and Hell fight against Urizen together. ALL OF HEAVEN and HELL as COG said....I know the DEVILS of Hell got involved, so why would God himself have not ?

And if God did get involved in this war, what's the point if he could have easily defeated Urizen? What's the point to all the bloodshed, this war would have been like an ARMAGEDDON in itself.

COG even sed that URIZEN is the end of everything.

2) Todd McFarlane got the idea of Urizen from William Blake. According to William Blake's personal mythos AND philosophy, Urizen WAS GOD....he beleived God to be no loving father or savior. He beleived God was a creul tormenter and is the reason why human beings suffer and animals eat each other.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No he won't. Urizen cannot die, its totally impossible. If Image's God can't kill him, then how would DC's ?

[QUOTE=6498160]Originally posted by Juntai
[B]. How about.. create Urizen a new reality and trap him in it?
Erase him from existance.
Meld his being into the fabric of the universe.
Turn him into something else, like a log, and then chop the log in two, 100 times per second, for the rest of eternity.

You don't really seem to be debating about anything other than a hypothesis of what this character is capable of, to say he can beat one of the comics nigh omnipotent characters with no real facts to present is very difficult to pose an a serious debate against. [/QUOTE}

First off thanks for actually answering the question Juntai.

Now....my response

Erase him from Existance.....Impossible. Such a thing cannot happen to Urizen.

Meld his being into the fabric of the Universe....which is actually what Urizen was almost going to do...he FEEDS on spiritual energy, and grows stronger by the amount. There is NO ENERGY that he cannot devour, whether it be Hellish, Heavenly, or Cosmic. This wouldn't hurt Urizen, it would probably only strengthen him.

Turn him into something else like a log, then chop the log in two: I'm not sure this would even work. Whose to say Full Power Spectre can do this to a full power Urizen ? Even if he COULD do this, Urizen wouldn't be dead. I'm not certain if REALITY ALTERING abilities would work on him, otherwise the GOD of IMAGE would have done this easily, instead of having Heaven to make an alliance with Hell to engage in a battle which could have destroyed the Universe that he created.

Create a new reality and trap him in it:.....seems like the only possible solution in my opinion. However, ur right about one thing: Urizen's full capablities are uncertain, but I imagine that Urizen himself at full strength must have been God's equivelent or higher for two reasons:

1) Like I said before, instead of finishing the problem of Urizen by himself, it was absolutely necessary to have Heaven and Hell fight against Urizen together. ALL OF HEAVEN and HELL as COG said....I know the DEVILS of Hell got involved, so why would God himself have not ?

And if God did get involved in this war, what's the point if he could have easily defeated Urizen? What's the point to all the bloodshed, this war would have been like an ARMAGEDDON in itself.

COG even sed that URIZEN is the end of everything.

2) Todd McFarlane got the idea of Urizen from William Blake. According to William Blake's personal mythos AND philosophy, Urizen WAS GOD....he beleived God to be no loving father or savior. He beleived God was a creul tormenter and is the reason why human beings suffer and animals eat each other. [/B]

And if he WERE strong enough to fight God, The Devil, Heaven and Hell, and the universe itself, then it only shows a faulty God not as powerful as the one portrayed in DC, who no matter how mighty, simply IS. It is not a being or a force that can be challenged.
The Presence created creation, it created Heaven AND Hell, and everything in between, material or otherwise, it created the entire POSSIBILITY of creation.

Urizen is a character, DC's Presence, is not.

Unless it specified he took on God, we can't simply assume he did just because Heaven and Hell got involved. God does simply get involved in every incident just because it's on high stakes like that. Because if it were all to be destroyed . . .that would be how God planned it to be. If they stopped him... that's how God planned it to be.

Again just YOUR opinion and intepretation of God. "God works in mysterious ways" "What is meant to be will be" "God does not get personally involved" are ALL CLICHES, not which are proven true, all are just religously accepted. Who can speak for GOD? That's if he even truly exists.

This is not attended for offense, at all ok Juntai? But I think you and many other debators here already have a personal and religious bias about who and what God is, and not every single Comic book version of GOD has to follow that STANDARD.

Also your idea of how "That's how God planned it would be" is a DESTINY based idea, and goes against the concept of FREE WILL which both the Christian and Judaic religions teach. HUGE contradiction.

Sorry but when it comes to PERSONAL intepretations of God, I do find interest in them, but I do not recognize them as valid for argument here. Only if you can gather info from the GOD that was portrayed in the ACTUAL comic books, NOT THE GOD that you BELEIVE to be real.

And if he WERE strong enough to fight God, The Devil, Heaven and Hell, and the universe itself, then it only shows a faulty God not as powerful as the one portrayed in DC, who no matter how mighty, simply IS. It is not a being or a force that can be challenged.
The Presence created creation, it created Heaven AND Hell, and everything in between, material or otherwise, it created the entire POSSIBILITY of creation.

HOW SO? Urizen was originally created by WILLIAM BLAKE, a painter and writer. Todd McFarlane only borrowed that idea to make Spawn more interesting. The original Urizen, according the William Blake, IS GOD..like i said a million times.

If Todd adapted a similiar intepretation of Urizen, THEN YES, WE CAN SAY that a full power URIZEN is strong enough to take on IMAGE's GOD.

Like I already said in another thread, IMAGE'S GOD IS FAULTY...not in terms of POWER, but in terms of personality and maturity. GOD in IMAGE ABANDONED HIS POST IN HEAVEN...did you know that ???

So yes, for me to assume that God got involved in the fight against Urizen is justifyable. I'm not saying its FACT, im saying its severely possible.

Urizen is a character, DC's Presence, is not.

Urizen is a TIMELESS being according to Spawn/Cog, he never had a birth, so he'll never have a DEATH. HE CANNOT DIE.

Secondly, so what if DC's Presence just IS? Spiritual ENERGY JUST IS, and Urizen eats that for breakfast.

He EATS ALL KINDS OF spiritual energy, whether it be HELLISH, COSMIC or HEAVENLY.

Whose to say that Urizen at full power cannot simply ABSORB Spectre ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[B]And if he WERE strong enough to fight God, The Devil, Heaven and Hell, and the universe itself, then it only shows a faulty God not as powerful as the one portrayed in DC, who no matter how mighty, simply IS. It is not a being or a force that can be challenged.
The Presence created creation, it created Heaven AND Hell, and everything in between, material or otherwise, it created the entire POSSIBILITY of creation.

HOW SO? Urizen was originally created by WILLIAM BLAKE, a painter and writer. Todd McFarlane only borrowed that idea to make Spawn more interesting. The original Urizen, according the William Blake, IS GOD..like i said a million times.

If Todd adapted a similiar intepretation of Urizen, THEN YES, WE CAN SAY that a full power URIZEN is strong enough to take on IMAGE's GOD.

Like I already said in another thread, IMAGE'S GOD IS FAULTY...not in terms of POWER, but in terms of personality and maturity. GOD in IMAGE ABANDONED HIS POST IN HEAVEN...did you know that ???

So yes, for me to assume that God got involved in the fight against Urizen is justifyable. I'm not saying its FACT, im saying its severely possible. [/B]

In DC The Presence doesn't have a post in Heaven, The Presence is unseen, he's not a character, he cannot be challenged.

Todd McFarlane based all the original characters in Spawn off of people he knows, but obviously they're written differently. Whoever he imagined into Spawn obviously gained vast amounts of power, as did Violator, etc.. What William Blake wrote is irrelivent, because Todd didn't write it as part of Image contiuum,

Thats your problem then, you're debating what 'may be possible' and what 'could have happened' rather than what did, which is the facts. Facts are what we use when debating.

Dude, I have out in facts, and any "may be possible" opinion I write is BASED on the facts that I know. so they shouldn't be disregarded.

Secondly, you gave in your own intepretation of God. Is that not just opinion ?

In DC The Presence doesn't have a post in Heaven, The Presence is unseen, he's not a character, he cannot be challenged.

Yes, but Yahweh does. And he's made very familiar to the readers. So is Spectre, so we can gather what we know from these two characters, and see how they could/can't defeat Urizen.

Todd McFarlane based all the original characters in Spawn off of people he knows, but obviously they're written differently. Whoever he imagined into Spawn obviously gained vast amounts of power, as did Violator, etc.. What William Blake wrote is irrelivent, because Todd didn't write it as part of Image contiuum

He didn't completely disregard William Blake's mythos either, he only adapted it into his own mythos. COGLIOSTRO HIMSELF referred to William Blake for reference, so how is William Blake's mythos totally irrelevent?

Dude, I have out in facts, and any "may be possible" opinion I write is BASED on the facts that I know. so they shouldn't be disregarded.

Secondly, you gave in your own intepretation of God. Is that not just opinion ?

----I gave the actual interpretation of The Presence for DC. Your opinion based off facts thus far been shown to me nothing but extrapolation. You've gone above and beyond what was written.

Yes, but Yahweh does. And he's made very familiar to the readers. So is Spectre, so we can gather what we know from these two characters, and see how they could/can't defeat Urizen.

-----Yahweh is a Vertigo character, I don't recall ever seeing him in DCU.

He didn't completely disregard William Blake's mythos either, he only adapted it into his own mythos. COGLIOSTRO HIMSELF referred to William Blake for reference, so how is William Blake's mythos totally irrelevent?

------ What's written in the comics is what counts, citing non canon sources doesn't help your debate in the slighest.

I gave the actual interpretation of The Presence for DC. Your opinion based off facts thus far been shown to me nothing but extrapolation. You've gone above and beyond what was written.

I hope so. I'm just going to trust that you know enough about DC God to make those claims, I can't argue against you if you're sincerely referring to DC God, since i probly know less about him.

However, I know for a fact that DC uses the Christian/Judeo God as thier Supreme Being, which is the only reason I'm accepting your intepretation, but, not every other Supreme Being in other comic books go by that.

*If you check out my other thread "Battle of Gods" you'll see that I made descriptions for FIVE different Comic Book GODS in one of my posts, and you should feel free to add or subtract whatever info i already displayed there. : )

[Yahweh is a Vertigo character, I don't recall ever seeing him in DCU.]

Yes, but Vertigo and DC are linked, and Lucifer and Micheal have interacted with Spectre. Someone has stated that Yahweh CREATED the Prescense....if all this is true, then I will refer to Yahweh and Presence together. And Yahweh is ubbber powerful btw.

[B][What's written in the comics is what counts, citing non canon sources doesn't help your debate in the slighest][B]

You're exxagerating here I beleive. Mentioning in William's Blake's mythos is not COMPLETELY irrelevent since COGLIOSTRO mentioned Blake HIMSELF for reference, so how and why should i totally disregard Blake's theory, and who are you to claim that Todd disregarded Blak'es mythos ????? He only integrated it into his own.

Just like in the recent Spawn issues, he used the Goddess Kali, and kept her in her entirely referred Hindu mythos, he just used her to hype the Armaggeddon story.

He still stayed true to Kali's representation and power, so whose to say he disregarded Urizen's original being if he never claimed he did ?

There's really not a lot more I need to say on the subject, all your post did to me, was prove exactly what I had said about your extrapolation and non canon sources. Both of them are useless in a debate on what happens IN the comics.

Vertigo has had tie ins with DCUniverse, but it's stated by DC themselves to be not part of DC continuity. In Vertigo, Yahweh created The Presence, The Word and such as pieces of himself inside of his creation [as he's far beyond Heaven and Hell and creation as a whole in there as well.]. Yahweh has never been shown in a DCUniverse comic. In Vertigo, Yahweh isn't even God anymore, Elaine is...and Elaine destroyed Hell altogether, it's entire concept actually.... but we still see Etrigan as a Demon of Hell in the DCU.

[There's really not a lot more I need to say on the subject, all your post did to me, was prove exactly what I had said about your extrapolation and non canon sources. Both of them are useless in a debate on what happens IN the comics.]

Sorry you feel that way. However, I disagree with you. I think you are completely overlooking what I'm saying. Just because you obviously cannot find my "Conclusions" in any canon comic book, doesn't mean the FACTS I've used to back up my point can't be found in the comic books themselves.

I always use facts to BACK UP and serve as BASE for my conclusive points, if you still feel my conclusive point is worthless, then feel free to just not answer it.

Vertigo has had tie ins with DCUniverse, but it's stated by DC themselves to be not part of DC continuity. In Vertigo, Yahweh created The Presence, The Word and such as pieces of himself inside of his creation [as he's far beyond Heaven and Hell and creation as a whole in there as well.]. Yahweh has never been shown in a DCUniverse comic. In Vertigo, Yahweh isn't even God anymore, Elaine is...and Elaine destroyed Hell altogether, it's entire concept actually.... but we still see Etrigan as a Demon of Hell in the DCU.

Vertigo has had tie ins with DCUniverse, but it's stated by DC themselves to be not part of DC continuity. In Vertigo, Yahweh created The Presence, The Word and such as pieces of himself inside of his creation [as he's far beyond Heaven and Hell and creation as a whole in there as well.]. Yahweh has never been shown in a DCUniverse comic. In Vertigo, Yahweh isn't even God anymore, Elaine is...and Elaine destroyed Hell altogether, it's entire concept actually.... but we still see Etrigan as a Demon of Hell in the DCU

Okay i stand corrected. Thanks for informing me on that topic, I have to admit that I know very little about DC and Vertigo mythos, so I appreciate when someone informs me on the subjects.

BUMP

i heard swamp thing once fought the presence when constantine unlocked his full potential anyway, the green and greenworld are similar, swampthing has total controll of the green and spawn has total controll of the green world thats how spawn defeated urizen by using nature against him.

Originally posted by Mider
i heard swamp thing once fought the presence when constantine unlocked his full potential anyway, the green and greenworld are similar, swampthing has total controll of the green and spawn has total controll of the green world thats how spawn defeated urizen by using nature against him.

Yes a Severely weakened Urizen, Mider.

I do not doubt that Spectre can beat the Urizen presented from issues #95-99.

I am asking if Urizen were at full power, and from what we KNOW of his full power:

1) He cannot die

2) It took Heaven and Hell combined to imprison him

3) His mere arrival got Heaven and Hell in a panicky frenzy

4) Greenworld wanted to stop him before he could become too strong

5) He devours spiritual energy

6) He kills free will, he kills imagination, he kills the spirit

7) Good and Evil are of no consequence to him, he need no allies, nor cares to have any

8) Even after he was imprisoned, the imprisonment within the void that both Heaven and Hell's combined forces set up, as strong as they TRIED To make it, was not strong enough. A simple spell from two minor demons was enough to allow Urizen to escape his heavenly and hellish confines, even in his most severely depowered form.

9) He can turn the purest of good souls to evil then to indifferent then to non existant

10) He can render even the most logical of minds to pure insanity.

Can Spectre still beat him from what we know, and how ?

If anyone else knows more about Urizen, that i failed to include, please let me know. Thanks.

Originally posted by Milkie
DC's Heaven and Hell got a massive beat down by Lobo... LOBO...

there both hella cheap, but im going with urizen because he looks hella cooler.

Originally posted by branhole
there both hella cheap, but im going with urizen because he looks hella cooler.

he looks like a kid at haloween, which is hella scary.

Spectre's look and feel is alright, but guys consider this:

Someone said a while back that Spectre did not want to enter the Joker's mind, because there was so much sadism and insanity that even the Spectre couldn't take it.

JUST IMAGINE the amount of sadism and insanity that exists with URIZEN's mind, when Spawn looked into Urizen's eye, Spawn screamed in fear and anguish, and swore he could NOW allow Urizen to ruin this world.

If Spectre tries to enter Urizen's mind, he'd probably be swallowed up or eliminated. Urizen's base power is the ability to devour and kill spirits...to kill FREE WILL..and to kill the imagination.

What is Spectre at heart than a spirit ? The "Spirit of Vengeance" he is still a spirit and therefore if Urizen were at his prime power, i would bet 100% that Urizen would kick Spectre's ass.

probably, he seems hela powerful.