Urizen VS Spectre

Started by newjak864 pages

The problem here you are trying to present an arguement not truely known and not accepting or even taking into account you could be wrong. Unforuntally that is what a theory is something that can be wrong.

Your arguement is based on the notion that God must have stepped in because it said all of heaven and hell. While there is a point there that can be true there also a point that does work against you. If Image's God himself had to step in and could not simply blink Urizen out of existence then that would mean that Image's god is not all powerful.

The biggest point you made is that Urizen was based off a phisophical arguement that god is not a good God but a mad man. This though also presents danger to your arguement in that if he an equal to God then why could he not defeat all of Heaven and Hell and devour them with no effort at all. This also raises the question of how he could be weskened because if he is an all-powerful being then he can not be weakened because as soon as he becomes un imprisioned he should instantly regain all his strength because he could immediatly feed upon the life energies of the Universe.

Next Junati was not giveing his personal view what god is but saying that in DC the notion of God id that he is Supreme and has no equal that no matter what he is and will always be and nothing can challenge that. Which via your own arguements God in Image is not such a being.

A full powered Spectre is one given all the power to do any job required and thus is basically all-powerful as well. That is where your arguements falls to pieces in that you yourself have presented Urizen as being fallauble while DC's Supreme Being is not.

This also makes your other points moot because he can not be killed by a falluable God but he can be beat and therefore seems to be subject to notions that are beyond DC's Supreme Being and therefore may be subject to other notions such as being erased from reality all together.

The problem here you are trying to present an arguement not truely known and not accepting or even taking into account you could be wrong. Unforuntally that is what a theory is something that can be wrong.

50% true, 50% untrue.

I am always open to the belief that I may be wrong, so please do not shove those words down my mouth. So far no one has convinced me that Spectre can beat Urizen....not from everything I know and understand about Urizen.

I patiently await someone's argument which can prove me wrong.

Your arguement is based on the notion that God must have stepped in because it said all of heaven and hell. While there is a point there that can be true there also a point that does work against you. If Image's God himself had to step in and could not simply blink Urizen out of existence then that would mean that Image's god is not all powerful.

Not quite. It could simply mean that full power Urizen is almost on par with Image's god. Image's god created the Image Universe, but from everything I know about the Spawn mythos, I feel I can safely imagine that Urizen was not born in Spawn's Universe. What's my biggest clue?

Urizen is a timeless being. That is fact...He can never die, but he was also never born. He always existed. Therefore, he came before Spawn's Universe did.

The biggest point you made is that Urizen was based off a phisophical arguement that god is not a good God but a mad man. This though also presents danger to your arguement in that if he an equal to God then why could he not defeat all of Heaven and Hell and devour them with no effort at all. This also raises the question of how he could be weskened because if he is an all-powerful being then he can not be weakened because as soon as he becomes un imprisioned he should instantly regain all his strength because he could immediatly feed upon the life energies of the Universe.

Urizen doesn't feed on all the energies in the Universe. Atleast not from what was said about him in the comic books. He only devous spiritual energy. Hellish of Heavenly, or universe based, he eats souls...negates them...kills imagination and free will.

God being a flawed being is not merely MY philosophy. It's already been said numerous times in the Spawn series. Not to mention that God abandoned his post in Heaven in the series. Let me assure you i never involved any personal religious bias into my comic book arguments, i am only going by the facts that the Spawn comics have revealed.

He was severely weakened from being in the Void and not having any access to spiritual energy for eons. Spectre is powered by the Presense no? What is there WAS no Presense to back up Spectre's power? Spectre would be weak as hell too, probably end up vanishing out of existance.

The same way Spectre needs his power to be backed by the Presence, Urizen needs to consume spiritual energy to regain his full strength.

However he was weakened the first time, is unsure however. That has no yet been revealed.

Next Junati was not giveing his personal view what god is but saying that in DC the notion of God id that he is Supreme and has no equal that no matter what he is and will always be and nothing can challenge that. Which via your own arguements God in Image is not such a being.

You're probably right. Image's God is a flawed being entirely, but there is nothing to prove that Image's God does not have limitless power. Nothing has proved this so far, and the argument that Image is one universe while DC is a multiverse will not convince me of anything. In Image, Spawn's prime Universe, Heaven, and Hell is all that matters. It encompasses Image's "infiniti".

A full powered Spectre is one given all the power to do any job required and thus is basically all-powerful as well. That is where your arguements falls to pieces in that you yourself have presented Urizen as being fallauble while DC's Supreme Being is not.

There is no proof that DC's being is infallible, in FACT from Vertigo's Lucifer series, Yahweh seems to have many many flaws. But who cares...that's not the point.

I am talking about mere "power", not moral perfection.

Ofcourse Urizen is fallible, but so what ? That has nothing to do with his ability to survive. It was made clear by Cogliostro himself, that not even God can kill him. Urizen was said to be "the end of everything".

Besides.....Spectre gets his power directly from the Presence. HE still needs someone else to back him up, even if he does have access to nearly infinite strength.

Urizen's full strength is unclear, and it is not yet revealed how he was defeated and weakened the first time.

His negation of the spiritual energy around him was making him stronger, and if he would have been allowed to corrupt other worlds he may have had his full strength eventually.

This also makes your other points moot because he can not be killed by a falluable God but he can be beat and therefore seems to be subject to notions that are beyond DC's Supreme Being and therefore may be subject to other notions such as being erased from reality all together.

Urizen cannot die...period.

He was never born, so he can never die. He is a being above such concepts.

He cannot be killed by a fallible God....no one ever said that Image's God isn't all powerful, however. Just because you are infallible does not make you all powerful. You CAN be one without the other.

Being erased from reality...hmmm...is a possibility.

However, you see that is what Heaven's weapons actually DO to the demons in Hell. Those weapons erase demons from existance, they become nullified. However, Spawn is immune to this.

Spawn got his ass kicked by Urizen the first time.

Urizen cannot be deleted by Heaven's weapons or any of their attempts, so how would Spectre do such a thing is all i am asking?

And one more thing: Spectre is STILL a spirit. He still consists of spiritual energy. There is no proof you can give that Spectre cannot have his soul negated or devoured or totally eliminated by a full powered Urizen.

I invite you to try though. 😉

[/B][/i]The biggest point you made is that Urizen was based off a phisophical arguement that god is not a good God but a mad man. This though also presents danger to your arguement in that if he an equal to God then why could he not defeat all of Heaven and Hell and devour them with no effort at all. This also raises the question of how he could be weskened because if he is an all-powerful being then he can not be weakened because as soon as he becomes un imprisioned he should instantly regain all his strength because he could immediatly feed upon the life energies of the Universe.[/i][/B]

One more thing I forgot to mention.

Urizen was imprisoned within an ABSOLUTE VOID.....there was no spiritual or cosmic energy for Urizen to feed on while in his imprisonment.

why the hella r the posts so hella long.

Hella Hella Hella STFU MAN.

50% true, 50% untrue.

I am always open to the belief that I may be wrong, so please do not shove those words down my mouth. So far no one has convinced me that Spectre can beat Urizen....not from everything I know and understand about Urizen.

I patiently await someone's argument which can prove me wrong.

What you just said is yes you understand you can be wrong and if you are wrong then Urizen looses no matter what and that 50% of the time you are wrong.

Not quite. It could simply mean that full power Urizen is almost on par with Image's god. Image's god created the Image Universe, but from everything I know about the Spawn mythos, I feel I can safely imagine that Urizen was not born in Spawn's Universe. What's my biggest clue?

Urizen is a timeless being. That is fact...He can never die, but he was also never born. He always existed. Therefore, he came before Spawn's Universe did.

This no way pertains to the arguement because it very well could be that Urizen is a equal to Image's God and that he wasn't created it still doesn't mean God in Image is all powerful.

Urizen doesn't feed on all the energies in the Universe. Atleast not from what was said about him in the comic books. He only devous spiritual energy. Hellish of Heavenly, or universe based, he eats souls...negates them...kills imagination and free will.

God being a flawed being is not merely MY philosophy. It's already been said numerous times in the Spawn series. Not to mention that God abandoned his post in Heaven in the series. Let me assure you i never involved any personal religious bias into my comic book arguments, i am only going by the facts that the Spawn comics have revealed.

I have not stated you have put your personal bias in but it is true that in Iamge God is falluable.

He was severely weakened from being in the Void and not having any access to spiritual energy for eons. Spectre is powered by the Presense no? What is there WAS no Presense to back up Spectre's power? Spectre would be weak as hell too, probably end up vanishing out of existance.

The same way Spectre needs his power to be backed by the Presence, Urizen needs to consume spiritual energy to regain his full strength.

However he was weakened the first time, is unsure however. That has no yet been revealed.

That there tells you he is not all powerful in that an all powerful being can not become weakened because it should always be able to possess its power it should never have to gain its power from something else.

Spectre without the backing of the presence would be powerless but there is a bit of a problem in that the spectre is a part of the Supreme being. Its all abit long and complicated but it goes like this there is the host which is a spirit and then the force or logoz if I'm not mistaken and that is an actual part of the presence. The other thing you need to understand is that the presence doesn't need anything to power it. while Urizen does.

You're probably right. Image's God is a flawed being entirely, but there is nothing to prove that Image's God does not have limitless power. Nothing has proved this so far, and the argument that Image is one universe while DC is a multiverse will not convince me of anything. In Image, Spawn's prime Universe, Heaven, and Hell is all that matters. It encompasses Image's "infiniti".
I wasn't attacking that Image is one universe and DC is multiversal that has nothing to do with my arguement. The point I was trying to say if Image's god is all powerful then why could it not simply blink Urizen out of existence an all powerful being should be able to do this. If your arguement is that Urizen is all powerful then he could not exist in a depowered form because he would be his own power source and not need the creation of God to sustain him.

There is no proof that DC's being is infallible, in FACT from Vertigo's Lucifer series, Yahweh seems to have many many flaws. But who cares...that's not the point.

I am talking about mere "power", not moral perfection.

Vertigo is not cannon in DC. The point is simple in that DC's being is supreme to all others in that no one can challenge it. It always is and always was you can never overcome. It is all powerful that is how DC portrays it's supreme being

Ofcourse Urizen is fallible, but so what ? That has nothing to do with his ability to survive. It was made clear by Cogliostro himself, that not even God can kill him. Urizen was said to be "the end of everything".

Besides.....Spectre gets his power directly from the Presence. HE still needs someone else to back him up, even if he does have access to nearly infinite strength.

Urizen's full strength is unclear, and it is not yet revealed how he was defeated and weakened the first time.

His negation of the spiritual energy around him was making him stronger, and if he would have been allowed to corrupt other worlds he may have had his full strength eventually.

If an all powerful being can not defeat an opponent that must survive off of its creation then it is not all powerful.

Urizen just by the fact his power flucuates means that he can not be all powerful because an all powerful being could never have different levels of power. Just by the fact he must drain the energies from something he had no hand in making shows that he is not all powerful because no matter what there is a limited about energy to consume and therefore his power will always reach a certain max before declining and since all powerful means literealy power without end Urizen just by his nature of power can not be it.

while you are right in that the Spectre as a host is nothing without the backing of the presence you said full-powered Spectre from the begining which means the presence will give as much power as needed to defeat ab opponent.

Urizen cannot die...period.

He was never born, so he can never die. He is a being above such concepts.

He cannot be killed by a fallible God....no one ever said that Image's God isn't all powerful, however. Just because you are infallible does not make you all powerful. You CAN be one without the other.

Being erased from reality...hmmm...is a possibility.

However, you see that is what Heaven's weapons actually DO to the demons in Hell. Those weapons erase demons from existance, they become nullified. However, Spawn is immune to this.

Spawn got his ass kicked by Urizen the first time.

Urizen cannot be deleted by Heaven's weapons or any of their attempts, so how would Spectre do such a thing is all i am asking?

By your own information given Image's god is not all powerfull because if he was he would have been able to absolutly defeat Urizen and erase from his realms but you admitted he couldn't do this so therefore he isn't all pwoerful. If he isn't all pwoerful and can't do it then naturally any of his creations and their powers won't work as well.

And one more thing: Spectre is STILL a spirit. He still consists of spiritual energy. There is no proof you can give that Spectre cannot have his soul negated or devoured or totally eliminated by a full powered Urizen.
If it wasn't being protected by the presence then at best he would devour the host spirit not the Spectre or wrath itself and that only means that the Spectre is hostless and this only means that now it doesn't have a moral bone and it will likely torture Urizen before destroying him. I mean when you do have an all powerful being backing you up it doesn't matter what the other person can do. 😉