Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I enjoy overinterpreting things. I also enjoy the positive correlation between sarcasm and insecurity in some people.
I wonder, how you developed the idea, that I was being sarcastic. The internet is serious business...
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
And where to begin with you, Nai? mmmI'm not quite sure why you continue to accuse me of confirmation bias when you seem to ignore evidence to the contrary (to say nothing of the many threads in which I've defended the placement of the likes of Ragnos, Caedus, Kun, etc.).
Oh. Trying to be smart again, Gideon? We both know, that you didn't waste two seconds thinking about that quote before dismissing it. If I may remind you of our e-mail discussion: You dismissed that very same quote, by simple mentioning that Sidious has more feats. Here in this very forum, when confronted with the same quote, your reaction has been this. To quote yourself:
Originally posted by Gideon
That's just it: they aren't. To my knowledge, no one has asserted that a quote or statement from any source is automatically correct;
In short: When something entitled "The Official Star Wars Fact File" contradicts Gideons opinion, it can easily be questioned. Any quote supporting Gideons opinion is automatically valid. In fact so valid, that statements dealing with the thoughts and hopes of fictional characters are suddenly turned into "out of universe statements" (rofl), that are...
Originally posted by Gideon
...thoroughly and utterly binding.
...unlike the "Official Star Wars Fact File" of course. In fact, when a quote supports Gideon's opinion, it can't be questioned, so the desired result - according to Gideon - should be this:
Originally posted by Gideon
From the perspective of most with any sort of regard for the Lucasfilm canon policy, one would naturally conclude that the debate would be over.
Hypocrisy, thy name is Gideon. Now that we have clarified that you are completely inable to accept anything that contradicts your opinion, we can go on with your pointless rant.
Rather, if anyone has suffered from confirmation bias it was Janus and company from day one. I find it mildly perplexing that they somehow were spared your obsessive wrath, but then they had to deal with me and my wrath is much worse, if not more obsessive. sneer
From day one? Yes. Janus once was a very deluded individual, as one can see here. Is that him arguing in Sidious favor? Man.
And of course, I never got into vast arguments with the other Antedeluvians, which is, why this here does clearly not exist, which certainly isn't me arguing the supremacy of the PT Jedi over the likes of Qel-Droma, Kun and Revan.
I like the passage about your wrath, though. How about taking it up with reality for once? The reaction to your "wrath" (which can be translated with repeating defeated arguments ad nauseam), was that the Antedeluvians turned away, bored of having the same debate in any thread and let you dwell here. Great victory that was for you, which is, why you did follow us to EoD, starting the very same debate once again, before Illustrious removed you. 😉
I'm familiar with the principle of the devil's advocate and no I didn't assume that it was an opponent of dogma, simply that you've apparently fancied yourself as both from time to time.
Apparently, you really lack the mental faculties to understand my motivation in certain cases. Yes. I'm not a great fan of dogma. Find me one other person in this forum, who did put as much effort into selling his own opinion as god given fact, as you did. Go and find me one person, that constantly ignored LFL officials, sources and reason, to defend his own views the way you did. Until you've found such a person, stop the attempts to question my motivations.
That you defended Yoda is not a surprise to me; if I recall, that subject (if not thread) was one of the few arguments that pitted you and Janus against one another. That you acknowledged the possibility of Ragnos dying at Yoda's hands also is unsurprising, as is your tentative recognition of Palpatine's "possible" status. (Likewise, I can go and find you threads in which I have acknowledged [repeatedly] the possibilities and probabilities of Palpatine dying in combat against another opponent.)
Spare us that mummery. In a seldom moment of honesty, you have formulated your agenda for this very forum rather clearly, if I may remind you:
Originally posted by RagingBoner
The essay itself isn't concerned with why Palpatine's the best character ever, but why he's the best Sith.
and
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Because that is directly relevant to his standing here, in this forum, which concerns itself with fights to the death.
These two quotes make two things obviously cleary: You believe that Sidious is the best Sith ever, and you believe that this should directly affect his standing in this forum. In short: You did never truely believe that any other Sith could rival Sidious and have argued on multiple occassions, that Luke Skywalker - the most powerful Jedi so far - would also be no match for DE Sidious. So please, spare us further attempts to worm out of the dead end you've placed yourself in, by proclaiming you have honestly argued against Sidious absolute superiority anywhere. According to you, there is not a single character capable of rivaling Sidious, and this is exactly the base for every argument you've made when your wrinkled loverboy was involved.
That you believe this somehow undermines your predilection for arguing in Ragnos's favor is the only real surprise. Perhaps if you presented evidence rather than a mild acknowledgement (as I did with Kun), I'd be impressed. I mean, I can find threads such as these, in which you blindly make assertions that Ragnos is somehow a better lightsaber duelist than Palpatine or whatnot, so the idea that you were a steadfast opponent of that bullshit is simply false.
Removing five minute postings out of context is certainly great, Gideon. The context being: Endless debates that always went the same way, with the same arguments being handed in again and again. And I'm still convinced that Ragnos would be rather formidable in terms of duels and there are enough reasons to believe this. That you don't see them, because of your inability to pay attention to details is not my fault, is it?
That aside: I've always peceived it as a intellectual challenge to attempt and make a case for characters not being supported by entire books filled with quotes above them. This is just another point, suiting my role as "advocatus diaboli" rather fine. So thanks for topeding your own point once more.
As far as our discourse via email, you sought me after I said I was willing to discuss the issue. When you couldn't maintain your civilty, I blocked you from KMC and you continued to stalk and harass my posts long after I refused to speak with you. That is the very embodiment of obsession and something I simply don't share.
Oh, really?
So it wasn't you who did invite me to that discussion via e-mail? I suppose I stumbled across your mail adress somewhere then. *shrug*
That somebody who was used to calling me "Nazi" complains about my lack of civilty is one of the biggest jokes I've seen so far. 😉 And yeah...my obsession. Was it me that put you on ignore while keeping up the attempts to mock you with some "clever" japes? No? Then it must have been you who ran from a discussion, tail between his legs, in a futile attempt to keep his face after being owned. Nevermind.
And lastly, the idea that you somehow left my essay on Palpatine untouched defies the very principle you claim to obey. If it is such a nexus of dogma and confirmation bias, one would think that you would have already ripped it to shreds. (Since you've apparently posted on the thread a few times for just that purpose, only to stop short of actually engaging.) But then I guess intimidation is a pretty tight leash, isn't it?
Yay. I'm intimidated. I fear, that I could suffer from serious brain damage having to deal with nonsense of that calibre:
Originally posted by Gideon
However, as the sole instructor of his three Sith apprentices, we can conclude with reasonable logic that he possessed many of the physical skills that they have demonstrated.
Gideons idea of "reasonable logic": Because Yoda trained Mace and Dooku, he must be a 2 metre high human male with black skin in his physical prime, because he must possess many of the physical skills his students have demonstrated. 👆
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Meh, most of us had different opinions back then. (I myself believed erroneously that the ancient Sith reigned supreme.) But only some of us had the balls to admit when we were wrong, which includes DS.
Good god.
Such things as "wrong" or "right" don't exist when it comes to that old debate again. Leland Chee told you, that it will always be up for debate. Chris Cherasi told you, that it will always be up for debate. Kevin J. Anderson proclaimed, that there can't be a definite answer, unless certain characters do have a duel in some source, which has never happened. Yet, you still believe, that you have found the truth, inable to see that you weren't wrong back then and aren't right now - or the other way around.
Nai
Oh. Trying to be smart again, Gideon?
Yeah, it's something you should try sometime. 😬
Nai
We both know, that you didn't waste two seconds thinking about that quote before dismissing it.
That was a demonstration of Xavier-class telepathy right there.
facepalm
One wonders why you, the embodiment of omniscience and omnipotence, waste your time, energy, and intellect arguing with us poor deluded fools on the internet when you could be out solving singlehandedly the mysteries of the universe.
Spoiler:
That I ultimately argue against the quote doesn't mean I dismissed it out of hand. Way to indulge in that patented antediluvian process: dumbass deduction.
Nai
In short: When something entitled "The Official Star Wars Fact File" contradicts Gideons opinion, it can easily be questioned.
facepalm
Gideon, that thread
That's just it: they aren't. To my knowledge, no one has asserted that a quote or statement from any source is automatically correct; particularly if there is direct contradiction from another source. Consider the publisher's summary on the paperback version of Specter of the Past, volume one in the Hand of Thrawn duology:
Funny how the example I use isn't from the Official Star Wars Fact File. haermm
Nai
Any quote supporting Gideons opinion is automatically valid. In fact so valid, that statements dealing with the thoughts and hopes of fictional characters are suddenly turned into "out of universe statements" (rofl), that are...
facepalm
If that were the case, why would I argue against certain quotes that support Palpatine's primacy?
Nai
Apparently, you really lack the mental faculties to understand my motivation in certain cases. Yes. I'm not a great fan of dogma. Find me one other person in this forum, who did put as much effort into selling his own opinion as god given fact, as you did. Go and find me one person, that constantly ignored LFL officials, sources and reason, to defend his own views the way you did. Until you've found such a person, stop the attempts to question my motivations.
How about this guy. You should read some of his posts: the constant reference to infallible intellect, interpretive skills, his penchant for making absolute statements without a modicum of support, his characteristic backpedaling, natural obsessive nature, and his tendency to lie in order to achieve his ends.
Nai
These two quotes make two things obviously cleary: You believe that Sidious is the best Sith ever, and you believe that this should directly affect his standing in this forum. In short: You did never truely believe that any other Sith could rival Sidious and have argued on multiple occassions, that Luke Skywalker - the most powerful Jedi so far - would also be no match for DE Sidious. So please, spare us further attempts to worm out of the dead end you've placed yourself in, by proclaiming you have honestly argued against Sidious absolute superiority anywhere.
facepalm
So because I've argued that Palpatine is supreme, that means he's unrivaled?
Spoiler:
Interesting how you declare Luke Skywalker the most powerful Jedi of all time and then argue in this same response that no one can possibly be right about this sort of issue, that LFL has no established hierarchy, so on and so forth. Pathological lying looks great on you, Nai.
Nai
That somebody who was used to calling me "Nazi" complains about my lack of civilty is one of the biggest jokes I've seen so far. And yeah...my obsession. Was it me that put you on ignore while keeping up the attempts to mock you with some "clever" japes? No? Then it must have been you who ran from a discussion, tail between his legs, in a futile attempt to keep his face after being owned. Nevermind.
😐
I've always tried to keep our debates civil, Nai. That I've called you a Nazi either in jest or after you indulge in your House masturbatory sessions doesn't change the fact that you feel the need to belligerently assert your "dominant" (lolololol) intellect.
Nai
Gideons idea of "reasonable logic": Because Yoda trained Mace and Dooku, he must be a 2 metre high human male with black skin in his physical prime, because he must possess many of the physical skills his students have demonstrated.
Spoiler:
Someone seems to have forgotten how he used to try to assert Ragnos's dominance based on the skills and powers of his inferiors.
Nai
You did never truely believe that any other Sith could rival Sidious
Nai
According to you, there is not a single character capable of rivaling Sidious, and this is exactly the base for every argument you've made when your wrinkled loverboy was involved.
facepalm
Gideon's essay
His knowledge has exceeded that of any other source, including the likes of Yoda, Odan-Urr, and Traya. His expertise in lightsaber combat has placed him on par with the veritable giants such as Luke Skywalker, Mace Windu, and Yoda. His command of the Force in terms of feats and combat prowess is, overall, in excess of any character; only in certain aspects does he have rivals; such as Luke Skywalker and Darth Nihilus. The conclusion of this piece is that an objective, proper accounting of the evidence yields only one result: Darth Sidious is the most powerful and accomplished Force user within the entire mythos.
Gideon vs. Slash
[quote]Gideon
[quote]Slash
He may not be more powerful than Sidious, but that's a good thing because I strongly dislike villains who are the most powerful in their universe.
But that's the brilliant thing, you see: Palpatine has rivals and peers in terms of power and his goals require traits and assets distinct from his strength in the Force.[/quote][/quote]
Project Holocron
Though some might disagree or think I am affording Marka Ragnos too much generosity, I would agree with you, Lieutenant. Ragnos was held in unabashed awe by his society and a post-Palpatine Sithian cult, millennia later. Though, if we wanted to argue strict feats, he is unremarkable, the purpose of this thread is to not ignore statements, strong implications, or inferences. Based on what is said of him, I would say that he rivals the likes of Luke Skywalker, Emperor Palpatine, Yoda, Mace Windu, Exar Kun, Gethzerion, Darth Vader, Starkiller, and other members of the absolute upper tier.
haermm
Blick Winkel
Hmm well it's hard to pinpoint any one thing exactly but I guess I would say you were a lot more polite and harmonious back then (where you usually only reserved your cutting words to my foolhardy antics), where about a year later you became a lot more mean spirited and made a habit of bringing members like SW Legend to the verge of tears on a weekly basis etc. lol.
I admit, I was... at times... a little... blunt?
DS
Everyone disregards sources when they don't like them and consider them gospel when it suits their argument.
I see where you're coming from, but I don't believe everyone dismisses a source entirely out of hand.
Despite what was insinuated through bullshit claims that required some serious ESP, I introduced the quote regarding Exar Kun because it came from a credible canon source and I could not, in good faith, just disregard it as hyperbole or non-canon because it didn't fit with my views regarding Sidious or other Sith. The reason I would later oppose the quote is simply because it not only flies in the face of a mountain of compiled evidence.
Advent staunchly defended the pro-Kun argument and she and I had a great discussion elsewhere in which we hammered out what we believed was a reasonable interpretation of the statement that didn't reject so much evidence to the contrary.
A responsible debater here will try to make canon fit together like pieces of a puzzle unless there's an irretrievable contradiction.
All of you here know my feelings on religion (I fucking hate it,) and so I find myself in the amusing position of developing book covers for a Christian publisher. In fact, I just spent two weeks living with a fundamentalist Evangelical Christian family, while I was receiving training on site. These are the kind of people that think the universe is 6000 years old, Rick Perry is God's right hand, and liberals aren't much better than “rag headed terrorists.” I didn't ask them what they thought of atheists, but then I didn't really see the point . . .
Anyway, so I spent two weeks developing covers for Christian books, working on advertisements for World magazine, listening to Rush Limbaugh, and contributing to dinner conversations about how Evolution is bad science.
Somewhere, if God exists, he's laughing his fucking ass off.
Neph
The time when you all argued that he could have used a ship to tractor beam it off. Becuase you know, using a perfectly good ship to tractor beam a broken one off a planet and then taking the broken one for keeps makes sense.
[list=1]
[*]Nihilus, as one of two reigning Sith Lords leading a galaxy-spanning military faction, isn't exactly wisdom incarnate. The guy fielded a lot of ships that weren't damaged from Malachor, right? Yet he kept it just the same.
[*]I was being a tremendous jerk and having loads of fun with it. Then I abandoned it for better ideas to diminish the feat, such as the fact that his powers were boosted by Malachor's dark side nexus. 13
[/list=1]