The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Deus Venèficus
I depends on what world you have.

Like Rand al'Thor could pretty much waste any SW character because all he needs to do is wave his hand and caused them to explode, or erase them from existance, or fry them with insta-kill lightning, or freez them into ice, or boil their blood, or squeez them apart with air, or...

It really all depends on what world and setting.

I don't know. I disagree. I haven't read anything from the Wheel of Time series in a long, long time - but assuming that Rand possesses that lexicon of power, he'd waste any SW character - yes - but it's due to the sheer arsenal he has.

Traya's instakill wouldn't work because neither Voldemort nor Rand possess any Force power. A lightsaber would still cut through them, but I think any duelist would be dead before they could attack them. Jedi Mind Tricks won't work because Rand and Voldemort both possess extremely powerful wills - making them immune.

On the other hand, Voldemort's the foremost Legilimens in the world - and the only way to stop Legilimency is Occulumency, meaning every Star Wars character would be victim to it; Voldemort can teleport at will (Star Wars characters can't do that); and he simply possesses magic on his side - which is too vast to compete with.

But, say, if Vader somehow got close enough and took a swing at Voldemort or Rand, I believe it would still amputate their limbs or behead them like anybody else.

Force attacks and lightsabers would still have the same effect, but it all comes down to: "could they pull it off in time"? Which I doubt.

Originally posted by San'Doria
all the force user needs to do is get out of sight, easy and fast since alot of jedis and sith have force speed, and remember force rage? it slows down everything around you, ding again

I have yet to see a Force user dodge Balefire, or block something they would never see.

Rand's attacks are unblockable unless you're a channeler who is equal to him in power (which is unheard of unless your Ishamael) and he has an incredibly wide range of things he could do.

Like I said it depends on the world.

Originally posted by Escape81
I don't know. I disagree. I haven't read anything from the Wheel of Time series in a long, long time - but assuming that Rand possesses that lexicon of power, he'd waste any SW character - yes - but it's due to the sheer arsenal he has.

Traya's instakill wouldn't work because neither Voldemort nor Rand possess any Force power. A lightsaber would still cut through them, but I think any duelist would be dead before they could attack them. Jedi Mind Tricks won't work because Rand and Voldemort both possess extremely powerful wills - making them immune.

On the other hand, Voldemort's the foremost Legilimens in the world - and the only way to stop Legilimency is Occulumency, meaning every Star Wars character would be victim to it; Voldemort can teleport at will (Star Wars characters can't do that); and he simply possesses magic on his side - which is too vast to compete with.

But, say, if Vader somehow got close enough and took a swing at Voldemort or Rand, I believe it would still amputate their limbs or behead them like anybody else.

Force attacks and lightsabers would still have the same effect, but it all comes down to: "could they pull it off in time"? Which I doubt.

Sorry DP

Yea I suppose it would be sortav like a who fires first thing, but I don't see Vader getting to Rand before he's been fried like a *****. Rand in KoD was killing Trollocs by the hundreds (perhaps thousands) with ease.

Originally posted by Deus Venèficus
I have yet to see a Force user dodge Balefire, or block something they would never see.

Rand's attacks are unblockable unless you're a channeler who is equal to him in power (which is unheard of unless your Ishamael) and he has an incredibly wide range of things he could do.

Like I said it depends on the world.

Originally posted by San'Doria
like i said iv played the ff games and i know how magic can be blocked, elemental magic strikes you from the air, for gods sake luke can just create his shield to block it, the force users can tap into the magicians mind predicting his next move, vader does that often, to tark, to exploit his weakness, sidious problably does this to see hi opponents next move and quickly come up with a plan, also there is force rage which slows everything around you giving you time to plan

Please learn to type correctly damnit... now on to destroy your argument.

[list]
[*]Blocking Attacks: No Force user is going to block Rand's attacks because quite simply they won't even be able to see it. Unless they suddenly become channelers on par with Rand (which so far only Ishamael has proved to be this powerful) and they are male then they will be dead without even knowing what killed them. Rand could simply wave his hand and cause them to explode, or make fire burst from beneath their skin, or fry them with lighting from the sky. One does not block channeling unless you are a channeler of equal power who knows the correct weave, and since no Force user has the channeling power of Ishamael there will be no blocking here. They could throw up a shield, but it would be useless against Saidin. Oh and did I mention that Rand's attacks are almost all instant?
[*]Mental Intrusion: Rand's will is nothing short of incredible. No Force user is going to mentally effect him.
[*]Rand's Attacks: Rand has an incredibly diverse vista of attacks that range from calling down hundreds of lightning bolts at once to waving his hand and pulling a Darkseid Omega beam effect (Balefire)
[*]Force Rage: I think this was your funniest point... now, I mean really. If a Force user is in Force Rage do you think he/she is going to be thinking clearly? Sure it slows things down, but it turns the user into a blood-lusting, mindless killing machine. So no... no Force Rage is going to help here.
[/list]

Oh and as a reference, I am not talking about the FF games...

Both of you, stfu, this isn't a debate topic, It's a social one.

again as i said the damm force user taps into his opponents mind, all jedi do that to predict their next attack, and they come up with a defense, would the magician expect that? no, and can magicians defend against emrald lightning? no, force storm? no, and can they know whats coming up? like vader or luke using their sorroundings to crush the magician? once the magician gets attacked they are dead.

again a force shield is created when luke expects an attack when he taps in the mind of his opponents, point moot

did i not say get out of sight? a defence to elemental magic, did i not say it takes time to cast magic, a few seconds while the force is instant? and will life drain not kill the magic user? keyword is life

Originally posted by calvs
Both of you, stfu, this isn't a debate topic, It's a social one.

Originally posted by Calvs
Both of you, stfu, this isn't a debate topic, It's a social one.

Also, join Blax X's forum hes workign on, http://z10.invisi0nfree.com/Blaxican/index.php

Replace the 0 in invision with a o

and the only way to stop Legilimency is Occulumency

Well I'm a bit rusty on my HP knowledge so forgive me if I missed something, but doesn't Occlumency not reqire any magical power at all, just strengthening your will and clearing your mind. If so, surely you wouldn't just have to know Occlumency to stop Leglimency.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Well I'm a bit rusty on my HP knowledge so forgive me if I missed something, but doesn't Occlumency not reqire any magical power at all, just strengthening your will and clearing your mind. If so, surely you wouldn't just have to know Occlumency to stop Leglimency.

I'm afraid that you're incorrect.

Legilimency isn't like a Force mind trick. With a mind trick, anyone with a strong will can repel it. So, in a hypothetical situation, Vader or Ragnos or any force user would be unable to manipulate or use a mind trick on Voldemort.

The only defense for Legilimency is Occulumency, according to Snape, hence why Harry was supposed to learn it, to repel off mental invasiosn from Voldemort - who is the most proficient Legilimens "the world has ever seen" (making him quite a bit better than Dumbledore himself).

Also, consider:

If it were based on will - then Harry should have mastered it quite easily. Consider that in the Goblet of Fire, he was able to fully resist the Imperius curse from Voldemort himself, due to the sheer strength of his will and "strength of character" (which Moody says are two things required to do so).

Ragnos would be fully victim to Legilimency, as would any Force user.

Originally posted by calvs
Both of you, stfu, this isn't a debate topic, It's a social one.

I'm afraid that you're incorrect.

Legilimency isn't like a Force mind trick. With a mind trick, anyone with a strong will can repel it. So, in a hypothetical situation, Vader or Ragnos or any force user would be unable to manipulate or use a mind trick on Voldemort.

The only defense for Legilimency is Occulumency, according to Snape, hence why Harry was supposed to learn it, to repel off mental invasiosn from Voldemort - who is the most proficient Legilimens "the world has ever seen" (making him quite a bit better than Dumbledore himself).

Well I am a bit rusty on HP, so I'll read up on that chapter in the fifth book, and see if I still have a point there.

If it were based on will - then Harry should have mastered it quite easily. Consider that in the Goblet of Fire, he was able to fully resist the Imperius curse from Voldemort himself, due to the sheer strength of his will and "strength of character" (which Moody says are two things required to do so).

I don't think it was so much that Harry couldn't, it was more because he was naturally uneasy around Snape, and after a while was actually going against what Snape was teaching him because he wanted to know what happened in his dream.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Originally posted by calvs
Both of you, stfu, this isn't a debate topic, It's a social one.

We're having a discussion, Janus, and the debate is off and on, that even Rex himself has participated in. Feel free to change the subject if you want, but unless Rex demands that we stop - I see no reason to end it.

It's nice, debating with people without open hostility.

Anyways I just read up on Occulumency, and it seems most force users would be able to counter it.

It doesn't require any magical power or anything, just a strong will and someone who can control their emotions well. All it is staying calm, and emptying your mind. That's it. Someone like Sidious would most likely be able to counter even Voldemort's Legilimency, considering how well he can control his emotions, and how strong his will is. And Snape stated when teaching Harry that eye contact was often essential, so any force user without eyes, such as Visas Marr would most likely have an added advantage in defending against it.

However a force user would probably need prep time if they were to go in a battle against a Legilimency user, as it's not like they would naturally enter the battle with an empty mind if they didn't know that it would help in their battle.

I actually think this debate is quite interesting...however, if the thread-starter truly thinks we should stop, then I will make it stop.

Thing is, nobody has been flamed to death like the arguments that killed the original Battle Bar. ermm

Giving the final word then, Calvs?

Well I didn't mean to stir things up... I figured as long as it didn't come to bashing things would be cool.

Oh, come now, I think the debate should continue - so long as it remains calm, rational, and devoid of hostility. The EoD version of this discussion didn't do as smoothly.

Perhaps we should make some other thread where "The Force vs. Magic" can continue, then?

In any case, let me address Kas'Im's representation of Legilimency and Occulumency:

Anyways I just read up on Occulumency, and it seems most force users would be able to counter it.

I quite disagree, Kas'Im. I'll try to address each of your points.

It doesn't require any magical power or anything, just a strong will and someone who can control their emotions well. All it is staying calm, and emptying your mind. That's it.

(taken from the Order of the Phoenix, page: 519)

Snape: "Occulumency, Potter. The magical defense of the mind against penetration. An obscure branch of magic , but a highly useful one."

Here, we have Snape, an extremely proficient Legilimens and Occulumens, saying that Legilimency and Occulumency are both magical abilities. Hence why Muggles (non-magic peoples) and - therein - Force users themselves would be unable to counter Legilimency.

Someone like Sidious would most likely be able to counter even Voldemort's Legilimency, considering how well he can control his emotions, and how strong his will is.

Sidious, despite his natural affinity for deception and secrecy and his immense will, wouldn't be able to counter Legilimency - especially from Voldemort. He was able to fool the Jedi Council because he was a master of a Force based technique that shielded his presence from them - as well as simply being cleverer and smarter than they were.

And Snape stated when teaching Harry that eye contact was often essential, so any force user without eyes, such as Visas Marr would most likely have an added advantage in defending against it.

Snape: "Time and space matter in magic, Potter. Eye contact is often essential to Legilimency."

The keyword, of course, being "often". Voldemort, who, again, is the most proficient Legilimens that the world has ever seen, may not be bound by the same limits and dictates that affect other wizards.

For example, Illustrious - in our debate - brought up how disapparation and apparation "is difficult" and "requires intense concentration", and yet - in this very book - we have Dumbledore and Voldemort dueling, and both of them disapparate and apparate extremely easily.

You have to factor in that Voldemort and Dumbledore are the two most powerful wizards in the world, and are not bound by the limitations of the average wizard. They are quite a bit better than every other character in the series.

Voldemort simply has too great of an arsenal for any Force user to compete with.

You brought up Sidious, of course, correct?

Voldemort and Sidious share many similarities: great power, great potential, great intellect, ambition - as well as both being the most evil and ruthless of their respective universes. They also share a similarity that would spell doom for Palpatine if he ever dueled Voldemort.

He's devoid of love and positive human emotion.

Voldemort is capable of possessing people who do not hold intense amounts of love. He was able to possess Harry, who retains intense emotions of love - only for a few seconds - due to his intolerability of love.

Voldemort could simply possess any evil Force user and force he or she to do his bidding. Or walk them off a cliff. Or impale themselves on their own weapons.

Hence why I say, Voldemort could comfortably defeat any Force user in Star Wars.

I wonder how Rand would do against Voldemort... that would be a "who fires first" battle.

Of course I wonder if you could consider Rand's powers to magical in nature.

As I said, I haven't read anything from the Wheel of Time series in a long, long, long time.

I believe Voldemort's disapparation and apparation would come in handy, as would the Killing Curse itself. But, from what you've said, Rand is as every bit as destructive and as dangerous - and I'd say he could hold his own by evading the Killing Curse.

Killing Voldemort would be difficult due to the apparation and disapparation, though.

I'd say it'd probably last for a long, long time.