The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

(taken from the Order of the Phoenix, page: 519)

Snape: "Occulumency, Potter. The magical defense of the mind against penetration. An obscure branch of magic , but a highly useful one."

Here, we have Snape, an extremely proficient Legilimens and Occulumens, saying that Legilimency and Occulumency are both magical abilities. Hence why Muggles (non-magic peoples) and - therein - Force users themselves would be unable to counter Legilimency.

I think by describing it as a magical defence, it doesn't necessarily mean that it requires magical ability, just that it is a defence used by magicians. Kind of like how potion making would be described as a magical art, doesn't mean that it would require magical ability.

Sidious, despite his natural affinity for deception and secrecy and his immense will, wouldn't be able to counter Legilimency - especially from Voldemort. He was able to fool the Jedi Council because he was a master of a Force based technique that shielded his presence from them - as well as simply being cleverer and smarter than they were.

However he was described as 'an embodiment of hate and anger', so clearly he had such strong emotions, yet was able to control them on a day to day basis as chancellor for the Republic, so this to me suggests that he was great at controlling his emotions.

Snape: "Time and space matter in magic, Potter. Eye contact is often essential to Legilimency."

The keyword, of course, being "often".

Oh yes, I know. It is still seemingly an added advantage.

Voldemort, who, again, is the most proficient Legilimens that the world has ever seen, may not be bound by the same limits and dictates that affect other wizards.

Well I wasn't just talking about Voldemort in particular, more just Legilimency in general.

Voldemort could simply possess any evil Force user and force he or she to do his bidding. Or walk them off a cliff. Or impale themselves on their own weapons.

Well that would be if non HP magic users couldn't defend against Legilimency, imo they can.

However I definitely agree with you about Sidious and Vader, they have many similarities.

Originally posted by Escape81
As I said, I haven't read anything from the Wheel of Time series in a long, long, long time.

I believe Voldemort's disapparation and apparition would come in handy, as would the Killing Curse itself. But, from what you've said, Rand is as every bit as destructive and as dangerous - and I'd say he could hold his own by evading the Killing Curse.

Killing Voldemort would be difficult due to the apparition and disapparation, though.

I'd say it'd probably last for a long, long time.

Rand is incredibly powerful simply because of his arsenal, and the fact that his attacks are instant or near instant. He is the strongest channeler in existence equaled only by Ishamael and considering less powerful male channelers were able to level mountain ranges in the AoL.

Now physically he's a normal human (with the added beneifts of being bonded), but is all but immune to pain. In KoD he gets his hand blown off and he doesn't care. The pain of getting his hand blown off by Semrihage doesn't even effect him and he then precedes to **** her over. So that one curse that causes pain (what was it called?) is out. The killing curse will be useful for Voldemort since well, Rand won't even know what it is although if it can be blocked by a physical object then Rand could create a shield of air to deflect it (which he can do instantly).

Now on apparition that is the most dangerous. Voldemort could just apparate behind Rand and fling the Killing Curse at him.

It depends on who fires first IMO... since Balefire is an unblockable insta-kill and so is the Killing Curse (unless Rand throws up a shield of air).

I think by describing it as a magical defence, it doesn't necessarily mean that it requires magical ability, just that it is a defence used by magicians. Kind of like how potion making would be described as a magical art, doesn't mean that it would require magical ability.

While I can understand some of your points, Kas'Im, it seems to me that you are arguing semantics. Snape addressed Legilimency as a magical art. Considering how you don't see Muggles in the books making potions or utilizing Legilimency, I'd have to say that they do require magical ability.

In the case of potions, one has to have all of the magical ingredients - hence "the magical art".

However he was described as 'an embodiment of hate and anger', so clearly he had such strong emotions, yet was able to control them on a day to day basis as chancellor for the Republic, so this to me suggests that he was great at controlling his emotions.

That is true. But what does that factor in on? Sidious possesses zero magical ability - he would still fall victim to Legilimency.

Oh yes, I know. It is still seemingly an added advantage.

Not against Voldemort. Remember, I'm talking about him in particular. I didn't say that "any Magic user" could beat "any Force user". I said Voldemort could.

Well I wasn't just talking about Voldemort in particular, more just Legilimency in general.

Please see the above.

Well that would be if non HP magic users couldn't defend against Legilimency, imo they can.

I hope that I've made it clear that they can't.

And, Legilimency isn't possession. Even if they could defend themselves from Legilimency, Sidious and people like him would still be able to fall victim to Voldemort's possession.

Considering how you don't see Muggles in the books making potions or utilizing Legilimency, I'd have to say that they do require magical ability.

Not magical ability, just knowledge and magical ingredients.

In the case of potions, one has to have all of the magical ingredients - hence "the magical art".

Well the same can be done with Occulumency. It us employed by magicians, hence the choice of word 'magical'.

Not against Voldemort. Remember, I'm talking about him in particular. I didn't say that "any Magic user" could beat "any Force user". I said Voldemort could.

Oh I know, when I posted that, it was more in general terms, not directly in response to you.

Please see the above.

Please see the above. 😛

And, Legilimency isn't possession.

Occulumency is still used to defend against possesion, as well as legilemency.

Originally posted by Deus Venèficus
Rand is incredibly powerful simply because of his arsenal, and the fact that his attacks are instant or near instant. He is the strongest channeler in existence equaled only by Ishamael and considering less powerful male channelers were able to level mountain ranges in the AoL.

Now physically he's a normal human (with the added beneifts of being bonded), but is all but immune to pain. In KoD he gets his hand blown off and he doesn't care. The pain of getting his hand blown off by Semrihage doesn't even effect him and he then precedes to **** her over. So that one curse that causes pain (what was it called?) is out. The killing curse will be useful for Voldemort since well, Rand won't even know what it is although if it can be blocked by a physical object then Rand could create a shield of air to deflect it (which he can do instantly).

Now on apparition that is the most dangerous. Voldemort could just apparate behind Rand and fling the Killing Curse at him.

It depends on who fires first IMO... since Balefire is an unblockable insta-kill and so is the Killing Curse (unless Rand throws up a shield of air).

The Killing Curse doesn't seem to be able to repelled by air. It destroys anything it hits. And the Cruciatus Curse (the pain one) doesn't cause physical damage. It just inflicts pain on anybody. Assuming he can feel the slightest amount of pain (unless he doesn't have pain censors), no matter how minute, how small, or how difficult it takes to bring him there, I am under the understanding that it would still affect him.

Still, I would suspect that a throwdown between Rand and Voldemort would last an extremely long time.

Not magical ability, just knowledge and magical ingredients.

Which non-magical folk don't possess. And that is just in the case of Potion-making. Legilimency and Occulumency are each a "magical art". People without magic would be unable to utilize it.

Force users aren't magical. They can't use them.

Well the same can be done with Occulumency. It us employed by magicians, hence the choice of word 'magical'.

You are assuming. Without basis, I might add.

It is employed by magicians because in potion-making, only they possess the ingredients and knowledge. In Legilimency and Occulumency, only they possess the magical power required to let it function.

Oh I know, when I posted that, it was more in general terms, not directly in response to you.

Again, I understand it. But I am talking about Voldemort. Meaning it wouldn't have any bearing on the fight.

Please see the above. 😛

I did.

Occulumency is still used to defend against possesion, as well as legilemency.[/B]

Where is this said?

Originally posted by Escape81
The Killing Curse doesn't seem to be able to repelled by air. It destroys anything it hits. And the Cruciatus Curse (the pain one) doesn't cause physical damage. It just inflicts pain on anybody. Assuming he can feel the slightest amount of pain (unless he doesn't have pain censors), no matter how minute, how small, or how difficult it takes to bring him there, I am under the understanding that it would still affect him.

Still, I would suspect that a throwdown between Rand and Voldemort would last an extremely long time.

Well than, I suppose the Cruciatus Curse would effect him, but I am curious to if it can be resisted. Like if the person effected had a high threshold for pain could still function. Rand's ability to work through pain is inhuman. I mean it is outright stated that he is in perpetual agony yet is uneffected. I was just curious on that.

As for the shield of air, Rand can make air solid and channel shields hard enough to defect massive pillars and buildings. The Killing Curse could destroy the shield, I suppose, but would it get all the way through?

But like, I said Rand doesn't know what the Killing Curse is, and Voldemort could just apparate behind him and fling one against his back.

But depending on what happens it could be a very long and destructive battle.

Which non-magical folk don't possess.

Possesion =X ability. Let's say, hypothetically, Hermione brought some magical ingredients and her potion book back home after the holidays, she decides to do a bit of practice with her muggle parents. Now they would have the capabilities to make a magical potion using the notes and ingredients, they would have the ability to do so.

It is employed by magicians because in potion-making, only they possess the ingredients and knowledge. In Legilimency and Occulumency, only they possess the magical power required to let it function.

There are more ways at looking at the sentence than your way, my way is just as valid as your's.
Now when you consider that we pretty much get to know exactly what Occulumency entails, none of the requirements are only magic-related (emptying their mind - not magic, controlling their emotions - not magic), and the fact that Snape labels it as a 'magical defence' clearly doesn't necessarily mean that it requires magical ability, your point that only HP magic users would be able to defend against it fails.

Again, I understand it. But I am talking about Voldemort. Meaning it wouldn't have any bearing on the fight.

Again, you miss my point. You seemed to think I missed your point and thought that you were talking about all HP magic users, this was not the case, when I was discussing leglimency in general, it wasn't directed towards you, more to everyone. Read back to where this point began and you'll see.

I did.

Please see the above. 😄

Where is this said?

The Harry Potter books. 😛

Well than, I suppose the Cruciatus Curse would effect him, but I am curious to if it can be resisted. Like if the person effected had a high threshold for pain could still function. Rand's ability to work through pain is inhuman. I mean it is outright stated that he is in perpetual agony yet is uneffected. I was just curious on that.

The Cruciatus Curse is complex.

The one performing the Curse must possess an intense amount of hatred. Harry performed the curse a single time on Bellatrix Lestrange after she killed Harry's godfather, Sirius. She was knocked to the floor, and screamed in agony - but she got up seconds later.

The reason being: Harry's hatred was "self-righteous", and it wasn't true hatred - so it didn't have the same effect.

When Voldemort or his Death Eaters have used it, the victim has been thrown to the floor, completely immobilized by pain, and screaming ensues. The only time they have recovered is when Voldemort releases them.

However, the intensity of the Cruciatus Curse can fluctuate. Voldemort, exceedingly arrogant and powerful, often uses the curse to simply toy with people. He uses it to punish Death Eaters when they fail, and he used it on Harry - before attempting to kill him.

Also, Voldemort and his men have tortured people to the point where it has caused irreperable brain damage and insanity.

As for the shield of air, Rand can make air solid and channel shields hard enough to defect massive pillars and buildings. The Killing Curse could destroy the shield, I suppose, but would it get all the way through?

It would likely just destroy the shield and not cause any damage to Rand until he fires it off again.

But like, I said Rand doesn't know what the Killing Curse is, and Voldemort could just apparate behind him and fling one against his back.

True. But the Killing Curse can be dodged. And it can be blocked (though the thing that blocks it - whether it is living or unanimated - will die/explode in the process).

But depending on what happens it could be a very long and destructive battle.

Yes. Wormtail, who was described as "a poor wizard and incompetent" blew up a street and killed dozens of Muggles.

Voldemort himself collapsed a massive bridge, killing several Muggles.

I'd say that their "arena" would be in shambles by the time the fight was over.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Possesion =X ability. Let's say, hypothetically, Hermione brought some magical ingredients and her potion book back home after the holidays, she decides to do a bit of practice with her muggle parents. Now they would have the capabilities to make a magical potion using the notes and ingredients, they would have the ability to do so.

You seem to operate under the assumption that potion-making operates on a similar basis as Legilimency and Occulumency - as well as magic in general. Are you going to tell me that Sidious could pick up Voldemort's wand, shout "Avada Kedavra!", and expect it to have the same results?

In the potion-making context, Hermione could perhaps teach her parents to create potions - due to her expertise. They would not possess the same level of it, however.

However, due to the fact that her parents are Muggles, they don't possess any innate magical ability. Meaning that they could not perform spells, incantations, or magical performances such as Legilimency and Occulumency.

There are more ways at looking at the sentence than your way, my way is just as valid as your's.
Now when you consider that we pretty much get to know exactly what Occulumency entails, none of the requirements are only magic-related (emptying their mind - not magic, controlling their emotions - not magic), and the fact that Snape labels it as a 'magical defence' clearly doesn't necessarily mean that it requires magical ability, your point that only HP magic users would be able to defend against it fails.

Not to be rude, but as with the Kit Fisto vs. Qui-Gon thread, you seem to take a direct quote and try to twist it in a different manner.

Snape labeled it as a magical defense. An obscure branch of magic. We have not been privy to any Muggle who has exhibited any signs of Occulumency.

Voldemort, in fact, used it on a clever war veteran who worked as his father's garderner in the Goblet of Fire.

My point doesn't fail, because, as I told you, most wizards don't even exhibit any skill with Legilimency or Occulumency. Therefore, the requirements for it must be considerable - which is why I don't see how any non-magic user would be able to utilize Occulumency.

Again, you miss my point. You seemed to think I missed your point and thought that you were talking about all HP magic users, this was not the case, when I was discussing leglimency in general, it wasn't directed towards you, more to everyone. Read back to where this point began and you'll see.

I understand it. I acknowledge it. I've said it twice. However, the main topic is regarding "Voldemort vs. Force users". I'm saying that it would have no bearing on the fight itself.

Please see the above. 😄

I did.

The Harry Potter books. 😛

I deal in specifics.

STFU.

Before I ask Rex to delete the topic.

Originally posted by Captain REX
I actually think this debate is quite interesting...however, if the thread-starter truly thinks we should stop, then I will make it stop.

Thing is, nobody has been flamed to death like the arguments that killed the original Battle Bar. ermm

Giving the final word then, Calvs?

You seem to operate under the assumption that potion-making operates on a similar basis as Legilimency and Occulumency - as well as magic in general. Are you going to tell me that Sidious could pick up Voldemort's wand, shout "Avada Kedavra!", and expect it to have the same results?

You seem to have missed my point, completely I might add.
I'm just discussing how the choice of labelling Occulumency as a magical art does not necessarily mean that it requires magical ability to do, and was using potion making as an example.

In the potion-making context, Hermione could perhaps teach her parents to create potions - due to her expertise. They would not possess the same level of it, however.

If they were more intelligent than Hermione, and used the same books, they could possibly possess a higher level, however this is irrelevant, that's not the point.
You were saying that the choice of labelling the arts of Occulumency and potion making as magical was because only magicians had the capabilities to carry them out. I proved this assertion wrong with my analogy, so you'll just have to accept that.

However, due to the fact that her parents are Muggles, they don't possess any innate magical ability. Meaning that they could not perform spells, incantations, or magical performances such as Legilimency and Occulumency

No innate magical ability is required to make potions, neither is it to employ Occulumency.

I understand it. I acknowledge it. I've said it twice. However, the main topic is regarding "Voldemort vs. Force users". I'm saying that it would have no bearing on the fight itself.

If you really understood that my point regarding leglimency was not directly to you but in general, why bring it up in our debate, and treating it as if it was directed towards you? 😉

I deal in specifics.

Order of the Phoenix. 😛

Originally posted by calvs
I say there is a thread made specifically for the topic.

There is?

@Kas'Im:

Unfortunately, Snape labeled it a "magical art". It requires magic to operate. Unless you can cite an example or two of a Muggle who has used Occulumency... you're arguing against the canon, and therefore, your point is moot.

Furthermore, find me the page number of where it says possession is the same as Occulumency.

Overall though, it was a good discussion, Veneficus. 😛

Originally posted by calvs
STFU.

Before I ask Rex to delete the topic.

Why do you care so much, it's not like this thread has that much activity in it anyway.

Originally posted by calvs
STFU.

Before I ask Rex to delete the topic.

Way to start a problem when there is none...

Unfortunately, Snape labeled it a "magical art".

Describing it as a magical art isn't sufficient enough evidence to say that magical ability is needed to employ it. It could be described as a magical art because only magicians employ it for instance, or simply because it was a subject taught to magicians. The word 'magical' alone isn't enough evidence, you'll need to come up with more.

It requires magic to operate.

Nope, just a strong will, so as to control your emotions and empty your mind.

Unless you can cite an example or two of a Muggle who has used Occulumency... you're arguing against the canon, and therefore, your point is moot.

I would be arguing against canon if absence of proof =d proof of absence, however it doesn't.

Furthermore, find me the page number of where it says possession is the same as Occulumency.

I was actually saying that Occlumency defends against possesion as well as leglimency, not that Occlumency and possesion are the same thing.

page 458: 'Occlumency, Potter. The magical defence of the mind against external penetration'

Possesion is external penetration, judging by Harry's response (Defence against external penetration? But he was not being possessed, they had all agreed on that), it is clear that external penetration includes possesion.

Overall though, it was a good discussion, Veneficus.

And our's wasn't? ( 😂 jk, you don't need to respond to that)

I wouldn't be able to make a separate thread outside of this one; I would just end up deleting it as it breaks the rules.

This is a social thread, and therefore anything goes here; before you suggest it, Raz has specified one social thread per section that is not a social section.

In any case, I will obey Calvs' wishes. Carry on the debate in PMs, if you wish.

Originally posted by Deus Venèficus
Way to start a problem when there is none...

Originally posted by Captain REX
I wouldn't be able to make a separate thread outside of this one; I would just end up deleting it as it breaks the rules.

This is a social thread, and therefore anything goes here; before you suggest it, Raz has specified one social thread per section that is not a social section.

In any case, I will obey Calvs' wishes. Carry on the debate in PMs, if you wish.

Calves I broke up with your mother a few hours ago, sorry. Seems like I won't be your daddy after all 🙁