The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Spoilers for Berserk:

Spoiler:
As an example of what I was talking about, I have to say I honestly found the final scene in the Eclipse saga one of the most horrifying and powerful moments in fiction that I've ever come across. To see how everyone had looked up to, admired, loved and worshipped Griffith (especially Gatts and Caska), to see all the developments in Gatt's and Caska's relationship and how they clearly did actually fall in love with eachother, and then to see Griffith brutally raping her, all the while Gatts is left watching it, powerless to stop it, with that demon digging into his eye, after cutting his own arm off in one of the most graphically badass but horrifying ways you could ever imagine, but onky to be put on his ass again. Then seeing the effect it has on Caska afterwards an dhow it basically makes her go insane, and I honestly feel that Gatt's quest for revenge on Griffith and the other God Hands is one of the best and most justified/plausible revenge motivations ever.

And while not exactly every single scene in Berserk is like that it is kind of reflective of just exactly what Berserk is like. It isn't just dark for the sake of being dark, it creates that dark atmosphere and these incredibly dark things happen, but if anything they are made all the more dark because you come to really care about their characters and their relationships with one another, and it really helps fuel the storyline.

Originally posted by Mangafan
Hmm definitely disagree there. I'd say something like Death Note would better meet that description which while really good isn't anywhere near as clever as people make it out to be. But Berserk is freaking AWESOME! Gatts is the most badass character ever created imo and the story has such an amazing atmosphere with so many dark, terrible moments and it really tells that kind of story better than anything else I've come across.

The issue with Berserk...I find the extensive 'GRIDMRK RAAARGH' distasteful, and the manga is hideously and brutally sexist. Furthermore, the pacing is abysmal. The characters later on...the Golden Age was great, but it has yet to recapture that. I don't particularly consider being 'badass' a substitute of good characterization.

Likewise. 😄

Have you tried Monter? Berserk is my favorite manga for sure but I think that overall best story has to go to Monster. Check it out if you haven't for sure it's well worth it.

Yep, I love Urasawa

I'll check these out. I tried to get into the Sandman once but I honestly couldn't get past the first issue, the art I just found a real big eyesawe and I just couldn't get into it, though I plan on giving it a better chance in the future.

That's fair. It does improve enormously, though.

The issue with Berserk...I find the extensive 'GRIDMRK RAAARGH' distasteful,

I can probably agree with that to a small extent though I mostly just skim through those sound descriptions.

and the manga is hideously and brutally sexist.

Are you referring to all the times Caska for example is seen as an object of rape for the enemy soldiers? Because tbh I think that's actually kind of realistic given that these soldiers would obviously be without any female company for a very long time, would view her as an enemy to be killed or worse anyway, and thus it makes sense that they would use the opportunity against someone they consider a war enemy. If anything the fact that Caska is portrayed to be a strong and powerful soldier/woman goes against it being particularly sexist imo.

Furthermore, the pacing is abysmal.

Again, agreed. It takes the artist freaking ages to release new chapters.

The characters later on...the Golden Age was great, but it has yet to recapture that.

It was definitely at its best during the Golden Age but I still think there are moments of brilliance afterwards as well.

Yep, I love Urasawa

Nice. 👆 Check out 20th Century Boys as well if you haven't (currently reading through it myself, around volume 10).

Originally posted by Mangafan
I can probably agree with that to a small extent though I mostly just skim through those sound descriptions.

Nice. 👆 Check out 20th Century Boys as well if you haven't (currently reading through it myself, around volume 10).

Yep, read that, too. I've read all of what Urasawa has in English

...and then she's raped and becomes a crazed vegetable husk of a woman.

Well it would have been an incredibly traumatic experience from anyone, let alone someone she had really admired and looked up to, amidst all the other stuff happening at the time like all her friends and comrades getting brutally killed. It's not complely unreasonable that she might go insane from that kind of trauma.

Not just Caska, but the female demons are almost all sexual and vampy (especially Slan, the opening PAGES are Guts screwing a girl who turns into a demon)...

I think that has a bit to do with the fact that their sexuality can be used as a weapon in a sense as it's something that a lot of men could be weak towards or could make them drop their guard. In the opening scene, while Gatts is banging the demon she then says something like "now I've got you" or "now you're mine" or somethign indivating that she wa susing it to put him in a weak position.

With the rest, I think it's similar to how it is in something like Game of Thrones. Obviously it is going for a very dark atmosphere and exploring very depraved characters and locations, and as such we will be seeing that kind of stuff. Obviously rape in general is viewed as one of the worst things you could probably do to someone, maybe even the worst, so you could say it works in helong establish the villains as these really vile, deplorable creatures, and naturally it's almost always woman who are the object of it. Prostitutes fit in with the depraved nature of the setting.

Yep, read that, too. I've read all of what Urasawa has in English

Would you say any of his other stuff is on the level of Monster? I'm really liking 20th Century Boys, but I definitely don't think it's on the same level as Monster personally, though still really good. Haven't read any of his other stuff.

Ah, Lightsnake. We meet again.

The Ancients are morally better than the Hylden. BAITBAITBAIT.

Originally posted by Mangafan
Well it would have been an incredibly traumatic experience from anyone, let alone someone she had really admired and looked up to, amidst all the other stuff happening at the time like all her friends and comrades getting brutally killed. It's not complely unreasonable that she might go insane from that kind of trauma.

But why did the author arrange it as such? He COULD have had Caska survive it with her mind intact, or avoided it...instead, Caska is a prop for Guts to be hurt and to be motivated

I think that has a bit to do with the fact that their sexuality can be used as a weapon in a sense as it's something that a lot of men could be weak towards or could make them drop their guard. In the opening scene, while Gatts is banging the demon she then says something like "now I've got you" or "now you're mine" or somethign indivating that she wa susing it to put him in a weak position.

Again, though...this is author choice. There's no reason it has to happen when him cutting her head off fully clothed would have the same effect

With the rest, I think it's similar to how it is in something like Game of Thrones. Obviously it is going for a very dark atmosphere and exploring very depraved characters and locations, and as such we will be seeing that kind of stuff. Obviously rape in general is viewed as one of the worst things you could probably do to someone, maybe even the worst, so you could say it works in helong establish the villains as these really vile, deplorable creatures, and naturally it's almost always woman who are the object of it. Prostitutes fit in with the depraved nature of the setting.

This goes FAR further than GoT. The thing is, there aren't many strong women. All of them are threatened with sexual violence or debased no matter what. Rape is overused, even by random trolls

Would you say any of his other stuff is on the level of Monster? I'm really liking 20th Century Boys, but I definitely don't think it's on the same level as Monster personally, though still really good. Haven't read any of his other stuff.

Mmmm...I'd say those are his best, but Pluto is great

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ah, Lightsnake. We meet again.

The Ancients are morally better than the Hylden. BAITBAITBAIT.

Did you have to remind me that series'll never have another entry...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
[B]But why did the author arrange it as such? He COULD have had Caska survive it with her mind intact, or avoided it...instead, Caska is a prop for Guts to be hurt and to be motivated

Hmm I;m not sure you're being entirely fair here... That was the story the artist wanted to convey and well, you can refer to anything as a plot device if it directly drives the story forward but I still think in this case the reason Gatts is seeking revenge against Griffith is just as important as the quest for revenge itself, and the impact the ordeal ahd on Caska was a big part of that.

The thing is, there aren't many strong women.

I kind of see your point, but I do think that it is also to do with the fact that in a sort of mercenary/military environment, you generally will not see many strong woman. I know there are characters outside of that but still, I think that's partly why. Women in general don;t have much of a place or important role on the battlefield and there's little room for them in Gatt's exploits period. The female villains at least have certainly been strong (well, they're evil) and cunning.

Rape is overused, even by random trolls

Perhaps. I still think its used pretty effectively at times as well though.

Mmmm...I'd say those are his best, but Pluto is great

Nice will probably check it out after I finish 20th century boys and its sequel.

Originally posted by Mangafan
[B]Hmm I;m not sure you're being entirely fair here... That was the story the artist wanted to convey and well, you can refer to anything as a plot device if it directly drives the story forward but I still think in this case the reason Gatts is seeking revenge against Griffith is just as important as the quest for revenge itself, and the impact the ordeal ahd on Caska was a big part of that.

I kind of see your point, but I do think that it is also to do with the fact that in a sort of mercenary/military environment, you generally will not see many strong woman. I know there are characters outside of that but still, I think that's partly why. Women in general don;t have much of a place or important role on the battlefield and there's little room for them in Gatt's exploits period. The female villains at least have certainly been strong (well, they're evil) and cunning.

YOu don't need to be soldiers to be 'strong' women...Charlotte could be, Luca is...but you have so many women who are just raped and killed, or just evil. But almost all of them have a man at their core (even the Queen wanted to kill Griffith solely for killing her man).
Plus, this IS a fantasy setting...George RR Martin explores a lot of this in GoT...berserk just fetishizes it

Perhaps. I still think its used pretty effectively at times as well though.

Antediluvian: Stop the Flood!

fdog
Not much we can do; these are elder evils beyond the ken of our time.

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Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes but the problem is...it isn't about Caska. She's a tool to be raped and discarded solely to hurt Guts. The deaths of the Hawk is horrifying enough as is, but Caska going insane and losing everything is a bit...uncomfortable

Lol? The consequences the Eclipse had on Casca were thoroughly explored, I don't know how you could imply they weren't.

Was her rape and torment used as a device to further the story? Why yes. Just like how Guts being raped as a child was used as a plot device to further the story and his characterization. Yet oddly enough you aren't complaining about that...

YOu don't need to be soldiers to be 'strong' women...

True.

Charlotte could be

And shouldn't be. It would completely invalidate the point of her character, which is to deconstruct the fairy tale princess archetype. Charlotte is a character totally devoted in everything to Griffith... And as such, is a static satellite of a character, and a shallow love interest (More of a meal ticket really). Which is entirely the point.

Not every female character should be strong, the notion that all should be is inherently unrealistic and frankly, it would be bad writing to make it such.

That said... Making her father lust after her was a bit much for me, albeit mostly because I thought the king was a pretty cool guy before.

, Luca is...

As is Schierke, Schierke's old mistress, Farnese after her character development, and Casca before the Eclipse. And yes, Casca is devoted to Griffith as you said, but then... Who the hell isn't? Everyone in the Band followed Griffith for Griffith, Guts arguably was even more devoted to him, yet you don't criticise Guts for being weak at all.

Oh, and one thing you missed is that Casca isn't reliant on either. After Griffith was jailed, Casca kept and lead the Band of the Hawk on her own, being unanimously accepted as leader, and even before that won many victories for the Band. She's not as good a leader as Griffith (No one is) and doesn't have Guts's superhuman prowess as a warrior (No one human does), but she's by no means weak.

but you have so many women who are just raped and killed,

And you have far more men indiscriminately slaughtered.

or just evil.

There are far more evil men. 😄

And the men of the series tend to be much more depraved than the women. No female character has reached the level of cruelty as Emperor Ganishka.

But almost all of them have a man at their core (even the Queen wanted to kill Griffith solely for killing her man).

Schierke doesn't (No, having a crush on Guts doesn't equate to that being the core of her character). Casca did, but she actually addressed this herself and it is in fact portrayed as an inherently unhealthy and immature thing, much like Griffith's childhood dream of owning a castle.

Plus, this IS a fantasy setting...George RR Martin explores a lot of this in GoT...berserk just fetishizes it

Not very many people find the rape in Berserk particularly sexy. Miura intended those scenes, yes, even the Casca scene, to invoke revulsion, not BOOOOONERZ.

... And really, Martin? The same guy who thought it was important to talk about a pubescant girl's **** bouncing in her jerkin while she walked? What about all of Gregor Clegane's victims? Most of his rape victims are just plot devices used to demonstrate what a vicious animal of a man he is, and his rape and murder of Elia of Dorne was in fact more relevant a facet of Oberyn's personality, than Elia, due to Elia being kind of dead. And really, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. George RR Martin is, to me, the Miura of prose Fantasy and vice versa, I have a great respect for both men as writers, but I feel you are being really hard on Miura for whatever reason.

I disagree. Rape is a heavy subject. If you ue it, you better do it right...in Berserk, it's NEVER about the women. It's just a cheap "man, this is AWFUL"

Naw.

No one cares.

🙁

Originally posted by NemeBro
George RR Martin is, to me, the Miura of prose Fantasy and vice versa

Agreed. Though if anything I think Berserk is a lot better than GoT. My opinion anyway.

[quote]
That's of course even granting there is inconsistent. For the clearest example here: Palps big force-storms. They wouldn't help in any case presented in the movies.

I've seen that used a surprisingly large amount of times.