Originally posted by Tzeentch._
yah, I don't know what the Sith equivalent of it is.KOTOR2's story is so dull. There's no sensible macguffin to keep you moving from plot point to plot point, like there was in KOTOR1. The "nihilistic" vibe that Kreia is constantly emanating seems to be a major theme throughout the entire game, because too many times I've found myself thinking "Why the **** am I on this planet?"
Yup, the Sith equivalent of it is Sith Lord.
KotoR II had a story with elementalism rarely seen in Star Wars.
KotoR was light, with a dark core - and KotoR II was darkness, with a light core.
The game was a mystery which contained an enigma - and where the first game utilized the simple "Light and Dark" concept, it's sequel introduced a universe with Light, Dark and Shades of grey - and had the player sift through those shades to find the true core of both extremes.
KotoR II contained many real-life truths - such as "Apathy is death" - which is true. Apathy being the seed of destruction itself.
Kreia's idea that one must stand by ones own power and help themselves in the place of others, reiterated an obvious truth about the wickedness of such a mindset, which was spoken of by Atton at one point.
In other words - KotoR II's stories had many truths to it, and was far more complex than most Star Wars games and stories you usually see - which are normally built on childishly-simple dynamics.
And although Malak was a decent villain in the first game - the Sith Triumvirate of KotoR II was ingenious.
An interesting collection of unique villains, with different drives, and a different reason for existing in contrast to each other.
Overall, Obsidian really outdid itself.
Bioware could take a lesson, though, then again, judging from the pile of shit that is TOR - that isn't really their style.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Recognizing something as being a fantastic work of art does not make you biased. Being butthurt over having been schooled half a dozen times over the game does though.
I see you've regressed back to the hilarious notion that your opinions are objective and infallible. First Nolan, now KotOR II. 😂
It's really sad how pathetic you are when it comes to the exchange of opinions. 😬
Gee, way to totally not put words in my mouth. I might accidentally spit them right over your head.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Yup, the Sith equivalent of it is Sith Lord.KotoR II had a story with elementalism rarely seen in Star Wars.
KotoR was light, with a dark core - and KotoR II was darkness, with a light core.
The game was a mystery which contained an enigma - and where the first game utilized the simple "Light and Dark" concept, it's sequel introduced a universe with Light, Dark and Shades of grey - and had the player sift through those shades to find the true core of both extremes.
KotoR II contained many real-life truths - such as "Apathy is death" - which is true. Apathy being the seed of destruction itself.
Kreia's idea that one must stand by ones own power and help themselves in the place of others, reiterated an obvious truth about the wickedness of such a mindset, which was spoken of by Atton at one point.
In other words - KotoR II's stories had many truths to it, and was far more complex than most Star Wars games and stories you usually see - which are normally built on childishly-simple dynamics.
And although Malak was a decent villain in the first game - the Sith Triumvirate of KotoR II was ingenious.
An interesting collection of unique villains, with different drives, and a different reason for existing in contrast to each other.
Overall, Obsidian really outdid itself.
Bioware could take a lesson, though, then again, judging from the pile of shit that is TOR - that isn't really their style.
👆
Originally posted by Nephthys
Gee, way to totally not put words in my mouth. I might accidentally spit them right over your head.
That's not all I'm putting in your mouth, b1tch.
I've went round and round on this underlying issue with you before. You rabidly defend the incredibly stupid idea that your taste and artistic judgment is somehow beyond reproach. Not only is it indicative of an absurdly fragile ego, it's also flat-out wrong: artistic criticism is a subjective enterprise.
Maybe when you've progressed further in your cognitive and psychological development, you'll be able to understand that bias works both ways and you're a moron if you think your opinion on this subject is somehow factual.
But I have faith in you.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's not all I'm putting in your mouth, b1tch.I've went round and round on this underlying issue with you before. You rabidly defend the incredibly stupid idea that your taste and artistic judgment is somehow beyond reproach. Not only is it indicative of an absurdly fragile ego, it's also flat-out wrong: artistic criticism is a subjective enterprise.
Maybe when you've progressed further in your cognitive and psychological development, you'll be able to understand that bias works both ways and you're a moron if you think your opinion on this subject is somehow factual.
But I have faith in you.
Maybe you shouldn't assume my position on things before I actually say anything about it? Because I never said that I was factually, objectively right? Maybe you should take your own advice? Do you think?
I object only to your accusations of bias. Nothing more or less.
Originally posted by RookwoodSymbolism, whether it's valid or not, does not equate to competent story-telling mechanics, which is the problem that KOTOR 2 suffers from. Yes yes, the moral subjectivity and "mature themes" within the game are well and good, but it means nothing if it isn't executed in a mechanically excellent way.
Yup, the Sith equivalent of it is Sith Lord.KotoR II had a story with elementalism rarely seen in Star Wars.
KotoR was light, with a dark core - and KotoR II was darkness, with a light core.
The game was a mystery which contained an enigma - and where the first game utilized the simple "Light and Dark" concept, it's sequel introduced a universe with Light, Dark and Shades of grey - and had the player sift through those shades to find the true core of both extremes.
KotoR II contained many real-life truths - such as "Apathy is death" - which is true. Apathy being the seed of destruction itself.
Kreia's idea that one must stand by ones own power and help themselves in the place of others, reiterated an obvious truth about the wickedness of such a mindset, which was spoken of by Atton at one point.
In other words - KotoR II's stories had many truths to it, and was far more complex than most Star Wars games and stories you usually see - which are normally built on childishly-simple dynamics.
And although Malak was a decent villain in the first game - the Sith Triumvirate of KotoR II was ingenious.
An interesting collection of unique villains, with different drives, and a different reason for existing in contrast to each other.
Overall, Obsidian really outdid itself.
Bioware could take a lesson, though, then again, judging from the pile of shit that is TOR - that isn't really their style.
Lol, yes that's all one needs to be biased. To enjoy the characters from a game.
Besides which I prefer Persona's characters to Kotor II's.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Symbolism, whether it's valid or not, does not equate to competent story-telling mechanics, which is the problem that KOTOR 2 suffers from. Yes yes, the moral subjectivity and "mature themes" within the game are well and good, but it means nothing if it isn't executed in a mechanically excellent way.
Whats wrong with Kotor II's story-telling mechanics? It's the same as Kotor I's. Your only problem seems to be that instead of Star Maps its Jedi Masters. IMO that works better as a mcguffin since the Exile actually has a personal interest in finding and questioning them.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Symbolism, whether it's valid or not, does not equate to competent story-telling mechanics, which is the problem that KOTOR 2 suffers from. Yes yes, the moral subjectivity and "mature themes" within the game are well and good, but it means nothing if it isn't executed in a mechanically excellent way.
Development of the game in many ways was actually rushed.
The finished product would have actually been far better - but as it stands, they did really good; far better than TOR, in any case.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And defend it rabidly across a span of 5+ years. But like I said, try harder. 👆
Perhaps I've defended it because I honestly believe the arguments against it to be wrong and the product of a twisted small-penised hatred.
All my arguments for Kotor II or its characters come from my logical beliefs and understanding of the game, not bias.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps I've defended it because I honestly believe the arguments against it to be wrong and the product of a twisted small-penised hatred.
Yes, because bias requires an inherent sense of deception on part of the defender. You can honestly believe whatever you want; doesn't mean you're not biased.
For a guy who throws that word around a lot, Neph, you have a poor understanding of it.
try harder bro
From wikipedia:
'Bias is an inclination of temperament or outlook to present or hold a partial perspective at the expense of (possibly equally valid) alternatives in reference to objects, people, or groups. Anything biased generally is one-sided and therefore lacks a neutral point of view. Bias can come in many forms and is often considered to be synonymous with prejudice or bigotry'
I'm well aware of what bias is, and I don't think it applies to my arguments for Kotor II over the years. Naturally my completely objective outlook on that matter doesn't color that judgement at all.
Originally posted by Nephthys
From wikipedia:'Bias is an inclination of temperament or outlook to present or hold a partial perspective at the expense of (possibly equally valid) alternatives in reference to objects, people, or groups. Anything biased generally is one-sided and therefore lacks a neutral point of view. Bias can come in many forms and is often considered to be synonymous with prejudice or bigotry'
I'm well aware of what bias is,
Your established understanding of it heretofore extends only to the ability to type a four letter word in Google and click its Wikipedia article. 😬
Originally posted by Nephthys
and I don't think it applies to my arguments for Kotor II over the years. Naturally my completely objective outlook on that matter doesn't color that judgement at all.
That you are able to assemble an argument to espouse your biased views doesn't make your views less biased.
KOTOR II's core theme is deconstructing and playing with/tongue-in-cheek RP elements. Sulik gets more powerful as she kills people. The PC gets more powerful as they kill monsters. Sulik has a bizarre ability to make people follow her. The PC has a bizarre ability to make people follow them.
It's pretty standard Avellone.
Anyways...
KOTOR I has an excellent story and great characters.
KOTOR II has an excellent story and great characters.
They simply do things in different ways and communicate different kinds of stories. Really, it depends on what you prefer.
The difference between Kotors I and II imo is that Kotor II is way more intelligent in terms of story, themes and characters. Its a much deeper story than Kotor I which is pretty standard SW/Bioware fare. IMO, Kotor II goes beyond that into truely stellar story-telling.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your established understanding of it heretofore extends only to the ability to type a four letter word in Google and click its Wikipedia article. 😬
Lol. I provided that extract to show whats actually needed for bias. While I've argued in favor of Kotor II's characters, I do not hold a limited perspective on the matter at the expense of others. I know the arguments against Kotor II and against the abilities of certain of its characters. I just do not agree with your conclusions about them nor put much stock in their validity.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That you are able to assemble an argument to espouse your biased views doesn't make your views less biased.
I'm still waiting for any evidence of bias.