The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Two of my exes wanted me to die horribly in a plane wreck. Then I started dating one of them again. Which doesn't mean she feels differently, I suppose. haermm

It's a rarity, I think, unless the couple in question weren't dating for very long.

Originally posted by Zampanó
So here's a question: Are any of you friends with your exes? Most of my friends have had really unpleasant breakups that leave no room for reconciliation.

But we're not that old, so maybe it's just a statistical anomaly of youth?

Edit: and KotOR 2 was cool.

Well... My ex became my ****buddy when we broke up until I started going out with my current woman... And now wey don't really talk.

Well, I try but you don't answer my calls. uhuh

http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/jj-abrams-set-direct-next-star-wars-film-exclusive-74596

^ Not Joss Whedon, but acceptable. mmm

Originally posted by Rookwood
But the second game, and it's group, was realistic, and so deep, that you actually have to play the game over and explore all the dialog just to understand what I'm really saying.

Play it enough, and the complexities will start to make sense to you - and you will see it, even in it's unfinished-state, as an equal, if not superior, to the first game.

We all get it, but some of us don't think the mere presence of ideas is enough to compensate for the shoddy delivery of those ideas. Read all our posts enough times, and it'll eventually make sense to you.

🙄

For those who had a bad day.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-who-are-having-a-worse-day-than-you

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, I try but you don't answer my calls. uhuh

Shhhhh!!

I told you nobody could know...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

We all get it, but some of us don't think the mere presence of ideas is enough to compensate for the shoddy delivery of those ideas.

Originally posted by Rookwood
You can blame the rushed-development for that.

Some may not know - but the time-frame for fleshing the game out was cut short, so it could be released by the holiday season, at the time.

The finished product, while incomplete, still rivals the original.

You must have missed that part. 😛

Use the Force, Lucien. Focus - Think. 😎

I keep getting Lucien and Lucius mixed up when I type responses

And then I get concerned that Faunus is going to snap up the next big milestone again

It isn't even rushed development. Its just that these guys obviously didn't connect with the story. That doesn't make the game bad, it just makes their tastes different. Theres nothing wrong with a simple heartfelt story like Kotors, just like theres nothing bad about a complex, mature story like Kotor IIs. The only problem is with all these imagined flaws in Kotor II's story telling. Which I disagree exist.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
The problem is that I, the player, have no motivation for doing what I'm doing.

You do, you just don't seem to have connected with it/ haven't been paying much attention. You motivation is to stop the Sith that are trying to kill you and take over the galaxy (and later become a threat to all life and the Force itself) and to discover what happened to you at Malachor/why you were cut off from the Force. Both of which requires you to find the scattered Jedi Masters. The reason you want to do this is pretty clear, if you're lightside then you want their help in fighting the Sith and if you're darkside you want revenge for them cutting you off from the Force (as you think they did at that point). And they can tell you what happened to do with Malachor and other info. That's plenty of motivation.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
The starmaps are a better McGuffin than the jedi masters because I experienced the events that resulted in me going after them. KOTOR1's storyline worked because everything that formed your character's motivations were experienced by you, the player, therefore your reaction to all the subsequent were genuine, as opposed to what you get in KOTOR2, where the game is basically telling you what you should be feeling.

When does it tell you what you should be feeling? You are still offered a wide range of responses in dialogue in Kotor II. Not that you are strictly wrong, the Exile is definitely a more clearly defined character than Revan ever was. I don't see why this is a negative though.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
For example, I've been asked twice now "why" I did what I did at Malachor. ...I don't why I did it. How can I?

You could..... roleplay? As in, iirc when Atris asks you why you went to war you can just tell her that the Mandalorians needed to be stopped. There, you just created your own motivations. Its not rocket science.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
At this point in the game I don't even know what the **** I did at Malachor. All I know is that it involved some sort of superweapon, it made me lose my powers and the Jedi Council exile'd me. How am I supposed to genuinely answer that question? How am I supposed to genuinely give a shit about what the jedi master's did to me if I never even performed the act that they punished me for?

A part of Kotor II is a mystery plot. You have to piece together what happened and why it happened throughout the game. Thats partially why you're looking for the Jedi Masters after all. This is not a failing of the game, merely a different kind of story than what you seemed to have expected. As Tempest is so wont to lecture about, its subjective. When I played the game for the first time I was fascinated by the complex backstory for the game and eager to figure out the mystery.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
This is a failing of the game that wasn't present in KOTOR1- no one was asking you "So Revan, why did you decide to betray the Republic?" halfway through the ****ing game. By the time you reach Malak, your hatred for him isn't based off of some implied slight that's apart of the character's backstory that you never actually experienced, you hate Malak because you got actually experience him torturing Ballista, trying over and over to kill you, etc.

Because Kotor is a simpler game. It does not require you to think like Kotor II does. And its very effective because of that.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
KOTOR2's primary plot is, "okay, soooo way before this game takes place, these jedi did something messed up to you, oh and also there are some sith who want to kill you so, you're going to spend the rest of the game hunting them down, kay?" That's bad story-telling.

I utterly fail to see why. There is nothing wrong with the plot of Kotor II, other than your own personal dislike.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
As far as the characters are concerned, Obisidian's ploy to make them "deep" just ended up turning them into a bunch of brooding, nihilistic assholes. There's no sense of camaraderie among the crew, like there was in KOTOR1. Half the crew hates the other half, either because of romance reasons, or because Kreia's a douche who threatens everyone, or because they're just "gritty". You have to constantly worry about your actions because if you're too evil you're going to alienate the morally good characters, and vice versa. Kreia bitches no matter what you do because apparently her role is to be the contrarian "everything is relative" person. It's really no fun at all to me.

Theres nothing wrong with having a darker cast of characters. Obviously, Kotor II is a darker game in general, so it only fits the tone.

Also Kreia does that in one scene only and it serves purely to illlustrate a point about binary moral choices. Personally I've always suspected that people who take offense with that scene are likely insecure whiners with an ego-problem who dislike not being able to 'win' a conversation. No offense, it just always comes up and strikes me as terribly immature.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Most of the cast doesn't even have a good reason for following you. In KOTOR 1, most of the people in the party had legit reasons for sticking around. Mission had been on Taris her entire life and had nowhere else to go, Zaalbar had a life-debt to Revan, Bastila obviously is on the same mission as him, etc. Meanwhile, half the cast's reasons for staying with the Exile on his mission that literally has nothing to do with them, comes down to "Kreia threatened to kill me if I didn't." So boring.

I'm only halfway through the game, so maybe there'll be some revelations later that make up for all these short-comings, but at this point it's basically too late. Obsidian made a game that's very "artsy" and "gritty", but that does not a good game make.

This part actually does have a revelation that explains it, lol.

And neither does it a bad game make. If you want a happy game, go play Mario-cart. But you can't hold it against the game that you came in expecting something different than what it was.

Originally posted by Zampanó
I keep getting Lucien and Lucius mixed up when I type responses

While I thought that KotOR 2 was good, I do think that some of these criticisms land.

For example, I didn't really understand what happened at Malachor besides some kind of superweapon until year 2 at KMC. And yet, I was expected to have strong opinions about its necessity/morality.

Nephthys
It isn't even rushed development. Its just that these guys obviously didn't connect with the story. That doesn't make the game bad, it just makes their tastes different.

Nephthys
As Tempest is so wont to lecture about, its subjective.

Nephthys
I utterly fail

Nephthys
There is nothing wrong with the plot of Kotor II, other than your own personal dislike.

jack black is virulently anti-catholic

Do

you

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how far