The greatest review of anything, ever.
The method they chose for some of the plot and character advancement bugged me too. You get scenes where Kreia or someone else is discussing the plot, making plans, or revealing information about the Exile's backstory... and the Exile isn't there to hear it. That threw me a lot, since we the player now know this new information, but our character doesn't. So instead of roleplaying as the Exile, we break the immersion to consider what the other characters are doing behind the Exile's back, and have to respond despite the Exile not knowing any of it.
With Revan, everything that happened or was revealed was to him and thus to us. We get a couple of cut scenes that fill in a few blanks, but nothing really important in terms of character growth or knowledge. If KotOR I did what the sequel did, we'd get a un-skippable cutscene before we left Dantooine of Bastila discussing Revan's identity. And Revan wouldn't know about it---but we would. I have no idea why they thought that was an effective storytelling device for II, it's use baffles me.
Originally posted by NephthysYou can take this kind of "it's all relative" rationalization and apply it to any story.
It isn't even rushed development. Its just that these guys obviously didn't connect with the story. That doesn't make the game bad, it just makes their tastes different. Theres nothing wrong with a simple heartfelt story like Kotors, just like theres nothing bad about a complex, mature story like Kotor IIs. The only problem is with all these imagined flaws in Kotor II's story telling. Which I disagree exist.You do, you just don't seem to have connected with it/ haven't been paying much attention. You motivation is to stop the Sith that are trying to kill you and take over the galaxy (and later become a threat to all life and the Force itself) and to discover what happened to you at Malachor/why you were cut off from the Force. Both of which requires you to find the scattered Jedi Masters. The reason you want to do this is pretty clear, if you're lightside then you want their help in fighting the Sith and if you're darkside you want revenge for them cutting you off from the Force (as you think they did at that point). And they can tell you what happened to do with Malachor and other info. That's plenty of motivation.
When does it tell you what you should be feeling? You are still offered a wide range of responses in dialogue in Kotor II. Not that you are strictly wrong, the Exile is definitely a more clearly defined character than Revan ever was. I don't see why this is a negative though.
You could..... roleplay? As in, iirc when Atris asks you why you went to war you can just tell her that the Mandalorians needed to be stopped. There, you just created your own motivations. Its not rocket science.
A part of Kotor II is a mystery plot. You have to piece together what happened and why it happened throughout the game. Thats partially why you're looking for the Jedi Masters after all. This is not a failing of the game, merely a different kind of story than what you seemed to have expected. As Tempest is so wont to lecture about, its subjective. When I played the game for the first time I was fascinated by the complex backstory for the game and eager to figure out the mystery.
Because Kotor is a simpler game. It does not require you to think like Kotor II does. And its very effective because of that.
I utterly fail to see why. There is nothing wrong with the plot of Kotor II, other than your own personal dislike.
Theres nothing wrong with having a darker cast of characters. Obviously, Kotor II is a darker game in general, so it only fits the tone.
Also Kreia does that in one scene only and it serves purely to illlustrate a point about binary moral choices. Personally I've always suspected that people who take offense with that scene are likely insecure whiners with an ego-problem who dislike not being able to 'win' a conversation. No offense, it just always comes up and strikes me as terribly immature.
This part actually does have a revelation that explains it, lol.
And neither does it a bad game make. If you want a happy game, go play Mario-cart. But you can't hold it against the game that you came in expecting something different than what it was.
Actually it's Sir B*tch-nigga. I was knighted. Peasant.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The method they chose for some of the plot and character advancement bugged me too. You get scenes where Kreia or someone else is discussing the plot, making plans, or revealing information about the Exile's backstory... and the Exile isn't there to hear it. That threw me a lot, since we the player now know this new information, but our character doesn't. So instead of roleplaying as the Exile, we break the immersion to consider what the other characters are doing behind the Exile's back, and have to respond despite the Exile not knowing any of it.With Revan, everything that happened or was revealed was to him and thus to us. We get a couple of cut scenes that fill in a few blanks, but nothing really important in terms of character growth or knowledge. If KotOR I did what the sequel did, we'd get a un-skippable cutscene before we left Dantooine of Bastila discussing Revan's identity. And Revan wouldn't know about it---but we would. I have no idea why they thought that was an effective storytelling device for II, it's use baffles me.
Actually, you're wrong. Do you not remember how the game kept showing all those cutscenes about Malak or Bastila being tortured? And then theres the whole section where you play as someone else.
Anyway, I don't agree that thats a negative part of the game, or if it is, its relatively insignificant. I like that the characters have lives outside of the main characters presence.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
You can take this kind of "it's all relative" rationalization and apply it to any story.
Indeed you can, its just that the majority of your post was not actual criticism but complaining about things you don't like.
Originally posted by NephthysThat's why I said "nothing really important in terms of character growth or knowledge".
Actually it's Sir B*tch-nigga. I was knighted. Peasant.Actually, you're wrong. Do you not remember how the game kept showing all those cutscenes about Malak or Bastila being tortured? And then theres the whole section where you play as someone else.
Anyway, I don't agree that thats a negative part of the game, or if it is, its relatively insignificant. I like that the characters have lives outside of the main characters presence.
None of the cutscenes with Malak, or the brief Leviathon escape, added anything to Revan's character. It revealed nothing about him, or the other playable characters. It was all about Malak. They gave us a means to know the villain. That's fine. What KotOR II did was pile on the expository cutscenes without our main character (and thus our input in to this world) being any the wiser as to what was said. But we the player now have to juggle that knowledge with an input character who lacks it. That's bothersome.
The point is to role play as that character, to learn what they learn, and make their responses for them based on that. By having an amnesiac as a main character who defines their own new personality, the first game allowed for a malleable protagonist whose importance and power had a backstory and explanation--it was pulled off wonderfully. The second game... not so much.
I think I know what people is getting at and imo the problem with KotOR is not with the main storyline. The main storyline, imo, is the best out of all those Bioware games, better than Kotor 1, better than mass effect, better than dragon age, and I agree with everything Nephtys and Rookwood said, as well as the characters and some of the dialogue.
The problem imo, whih I felt when I replayed it recently, is that in these games oyu always have loits of "filler". Like in Mass Effect and Kotor, you have the main storyline, but visiting all the different planets, and all the stuff that takes place on them, is usually not important to the main story, but it takes up most of the length of time of the game. and IMO the problem with KOTOR 2 is that the "filler", the secondary planets that you spend most of your time on, are for the most part really, really boring, and they just have less of an epic feeling than those in Bioware's other games. My personal opinion but I think that is why most dislike it.
So overall imo when you look at main story/quest, as well as all the filler stuff, Kotor 1 is the best out of all those games, and Kotor 2 the worst.
Originally posted by NephthysOn Taris, between Kreia and Atton. On the Ravager between Visas and her master (whoever he is, because no one actually speaks his name). On Dxun, between Kreia and Mandalore. On Nar Shadaa between Kreia and Hanharr. On Nar Shadaa between Hanharr and Mira. Many times when cutscenes are activated by leaving or entering the ship. Even some tertiary characters do it; Chodo and his buddy on Citadel. Atris and one of the albino clones clone on Telos. The bounty hunters and G0-T0 on his ship (especially irksome since that one involves two potential crew members). The feud between G0-T0 and T3 (which apparently affects the main story by the end). And I know there's a few between the Jedi masters and other people--like the Onderon queen.
At what point does that actually happen?
These aren't minor characters or nameless henchman talking about something dismissive (maybe it's another drill), it's the main cast and villains discussing the main topics of the main story. Mainly. When you have only the one character acting as your avatar and input, you limit the amount of interaction. The Exile is the primary instrument, so being unable to respond to dialogue or actions that you (the player) understand and know about, is very bothersome, and breaks the flow.
It also doesn't help that a lot of it involves Kreia, the most annoying person in either game. When she's supposed to be the Big Bad, and you get to hear her machinating and scheming behind your (character's) back, but you the player can't do anything about it (and shouldn't, unless you want to break the fourth wall and tell immersion to "go f*ck itself"😉, it really depreciates the value of her deception and "betrayal"---cuz we already knew it was coming. Imagine Bastila and Vrook discussing in secret that Revan didn't actually die--not flat out giving away the reveal, but something to that effect. The audience (the true receptacle of information) can't respond to that, but our character is still expected to be shocked by it. Kinda ruins the effect.
This was a huge problem in the game for me. The unlikable characters, poorly paced story, lifeless personal journey, annoying dialogue and voice acting, technical failings (I've b*tched before about the bottomless pit of items available) and the retrospective fellatio of the One Called Revan---I could have put aside and still be immersed in the world they designed (expect for maybe the items--GOD that aspect pissed me off). But that method of expository reveal sealed it for me; the game is not fun, and never redeems itself. Rookwood can go on about why there are problems, but that doesn't excuse that there are problems.
BTW Nephtys I started playing Persona and Zero Escape on your recommendation and I have to say both games are absolutely amazing, the social links and combat in Persona are really addictive, the story feels like its taken straight out of a seinen anime, really nice atrwork and the music is weirdly awesome, and it just has so much style to it, and zero escape has such a good story, only unlocked one of the endings so far but I can tell the true ending is going to be made of some awesome and epic plot twists (making early prediction that it is Alice in the coffin). Any other good anime-like videogames that you can think of (already played catherine)?
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Wow people, I just asked you to recommend me a good build...
Jedi Sentinel/Watchman
Spend as many attribute points on intelligence as you can, balancing out the rest among all attributes.
Divide skill points equally among all skills.
Make sure you get the class skill feats that you need as soon as possible.
This is because having high skill levels gives you more options in both dialogue and gameplay, and makes the game more fresh and fun.
So that combat does not become too hard:
Play game on lowest difficulty setting.
Ensure you are always high level and have good gear.
Make all party members combat specialists.
When developing party members that become Jedi, do not waste feats/points on non-Jedi stuff (e.g. blaster skills). Also do not level up party members until they become Jedi.
Do not waste feats/powers. For example, think about getting just one offensive power, just one of the flurry/powerattack/critical strike feats, and then focus on the other stuff that provides umiversal benefits.
Also, make all characters dual wield specialists, unless they are preqecuiiped with dueling feat skill, or Traya.
Also, make sure to play the game with the telos restoration mod installed.