Originally posted by Tzeentch._Star Wars is finally back in the hands of a competent director after 30 years. I just hope they let Abrams do it his way, in his own style. No trying to recapture the style of the OT.
So, now that Neph has been crushed utterly,What's you guys' opinions on J.J. Abrams being the confirmed director for Episode 7?
Originally posted by Nephthys[fable]Do hurry. My hacking arm is getting twitchy.[/fable]
Dude, I'm totally gonna reply. I'm just relaxing on a weekend, easy-style.
Before I start this, I've just got to ask: Did you actually finish the game? And get through all the characters dialogue. Because man, it sure doesn't sound like it from what you've written. Kreia 'one-note', lol.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
She already is a weak character, in her delivery, if not her depth. But yeah, it would make her even weaker. That this is all that stands in the way of that is pretty unfulfilling.
Don't be ridiculous, Sara Kestelman does an incredible job voicing her, some of the best voice-acting I've ever heard and her dialogue is top-notch. Weak delivery? What on Earth are you talking about? Kreia is an amazing character. You don't even have to believe me, People have written essays about her for christs sake. Her strength as a character is well-recognised. She is in no way a weak character.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Then we ask ourselves "Should she have been taken over?" I don't know about you but I can just meet HK or Jolee right before I use them to escape the Leviathon. I don't need characters to have character merely to use them for a combat-only scenario.
But the effect is much worse off. It would be very jarring for the player to suddenly be in control of a character they know nothing about. Why is Mira trying to save the Exile? Who is she? If we don't establish these things, the game suffers for it. It would be like if you entered the academy on Korriban in the first game and got captured then need to have Yuthura Ban rescue you. You'd be like what the ****, right? With HK and Jolee, you actually do need to use and talk to them before you can get to the Leviathon.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That said, I think the Mira/Hanarr sub-plot was terribly underwritten and underdeveloped. Again with the likeability factor--neither of them are likeable, so sacrificing time and cutscenes in order to give them a fraction of "meh" storyline that went nowhere and meant nothing, is a waste.
And think about how much worse they would be if we had nothing. Remember how much of a non-entity T3 was in Kotor I?
Also their sub-plot is an ingenious deconstruction of Wookiee's and the lame 'life-debt' thing from Kotor I.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I've been trying to stress how important I feel the correlation of character knowledge and player knowledge is. The majority of the game is dialogue and character-building, and deciding just what's going to happen in those regards. So when my character can't react or respond to something important that the game has gone out of its way to tell me about, I get pissed off.
The separation of character knowledge and player knowledge is something that's in practically every game. You know Calo Nord survives Taris but the game doesn't exactly allow you to shoot him in the head after that rubble falls on him. Does that piss you off? You learn that Malak's planning to bombard the planet way before he actually does so in the game. Did not being able to warn everyone about it piss you off? You learn that Malaks sending bounty-hunters against you. Did not being able to track them down yourself really grind your gears?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This wouldn't be so bad if the structure of the game didn't revolve around this one character whom I build and control and decide what they say and do and how they do it. So when I know something but can't respond because my character doesn't know it, the immersion's broken, and I get frustrated. And if the excuse is that these things need to happen for the sake of the plot, then... that's a problem best saved for the Prequels.
But thats the thing, it isn't. Theres far more to the story beyond the Exile, it's your fault for assuming that everything in the game has to revolves around her. It doesn't, the characters have interests separate from the Exile, interactions outside of the Exile's presence. This isn't a failing of the game, to myself and many others its a huge strength. It's your own fault for being so self-centered and in assuming that the game should indulge that feeling. Tempest has been right all these years about how Kotor I strokes the players ego. It isn't a failing that Kotor II does not stoop to that level.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If they're talking about you,
I don't see how this is negative to the game. Would you rather the characters only ever profess their feelings to you personally? You can't be frustrated that the characters actually talk about you to the other characters on the ship.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
and planning to kill you,
Would you rather these people just show up unannounced and then you kill them? Kotor I introduced people planning to kill you, so you can't hold it against Kotor II to do the same.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
and pining over you,
Only after you've expressed interest in them and they've reciprocated. In which case you aren't learning anything new to respond to.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
and reminiscing about you,
Atris. This is important to her story arc, and you'd just got done with having a huge conversation with her were you can chew her out for being hung up over you.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
and protecting you, and wondering about you, and you are told from the start of the game how important and awesome and worthwhile and valuable and pre-destined for Saviorship you are, and how everything that's happening now is all because of you and is going to be resolved by you, then yeah...
Again again again, I don't see where you can feel frustrated for not being able to respond to things. You want to hunt people trying to kill down before they get the chance? You want to talk to people about how they feel about you (which would be incredibly lame btw)? You want to be able to go beat up G0-T0 and Kreia for pulling shit behind your back? Well too bad, you just missed the point of all these scenes. Especially that last one. They're supposed to be ominous and make you paranoid about what those characters are planning or whats going to happen. Do you think the Matrix is weaker because they reveal Cypher is evil half way through? Or Romeo and Juliet because it says plain as day that they die on the first goddamn page? Of course not, pulling this kind of thing is a legitimate narrative device.
And there is nothing wrong with it.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
it has everything to do with the freaking plot.
Again, not really. Only the Kriea and G0-T0 stuff actually.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So much is said about you, and revealed about the people closest to you, and decided what ought to be happening with you, that when you aren't there to hear it, it starts to matter to the player. I'm role playing as this character, so being privy to special information that matters to this character, while the character isn't, defeats the purpose for me. It's right about when those ex-Exile scenes start piling on that the weight of the game's faults break me and I give up.
Wow. No offense, but this seems to me to be such a small problem with the game that I'm not even sure if it is a problem. I really don't understand how this is a deal-breaker for you.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Fair enough, if that's your criteria.On those characters' characterizations though... I can't agree. The KotOR II characters come off to me as the most pretentious, wannabe mysterious, faux-deep annoying roster of secondaries outside of the Matrix sequels that I can think of.
Well, you have bad taste then I guess. 😬
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I make an exception for HK and Mical.At least he feels like an OK guy who just cares a little too much, but even still, he's boring.
You mean, the worst character in the game? 😬
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Everyone else is all edgy, and dark, with a tragic past, and by God do they want you know it.
No, they don't. 😐
Thats why you need to gather influence to get them to talk about it, remember? Because they're either lying about it or putting up a facade to hide it from you.
And about the dark, tragic past stuff? Um, yes? That's one of the main themes of the game, the ide of being Wounded. Most of the characters are wounded in some way. The fact that the characters are built around an actual theme is an undeniable strength. Does... does Kotor I even have a single theme? Just a little one?
But no, I can see why that games story is so much superior to Kotor II's. 🙄
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
They don't feel real. I know I know, it's Star Wars with aliens, but that's a cop-out excuse that's built on imaginary sand.snip
Urgh, bullshit. Anakin does not have as much depth as Kotor II's characters. Hanharr alone has more than him, go look up all those things I said about him the last time we argued about this.
And you're really ragging on the dialogue and voice acting. Jesus Christ man, how is the dialogue (written by Drew freaking Karpyshan) and voice acting worse than Kotor I's? It's way superior!
Also, Kreia isn't supposed to be likable, she's the main ****ing villain!
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Atton: mysterious, sarcastic, prick.
Mira: myserious, edgy.
Visas: mysterious... nothing else.
Mical: calm.
Brianna: shy? I can't remember, she was forgettable.
Mandalore: mysterious, tough, manly, violent (go KotOR I for establishing this character!)
HK: (ditto)
G0-t0: mysterious, prick.I'm not trying to be flippant or unfair here, I've just sat for 1/4 hour trying to think of these guys' personality traits. I'm actually worried I forgot someone.
I don't really know how to respond to this because its just so wrong and yet because liking a character is subjective you're not really wrong.
But, man. You sure did miss a shit-ton of the characters. 😬 Calling Kreia 'one-note' is just mind-bogglingly disingenuous. I'm not going to go through all the characters though, that would be stupid.
Oh and you did forget Hanharr and T3 btw.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The first game's emotional roster ranged from sarcastic to bitter, angry to humorous, hateful to remorseful, determined to resigned. And I'm just talking about Carth. The second game plays the few notes of "dark" and "mysterious" to death, and it gets old, fast.
That's funny, because I thought you were talking about Atton there for a second. Or Kreia. If you're going to just ignore the characters depth then don't blame the game when you end up hating them.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
To an extent...I was hoping for a reveal not because I think it ought to have one, but because I wanted my character to actually have a proper motivation for everything they go through. Yeah I know, they mention "revenge" or "healing" or "answers", but its not really focused on and explored. Every time I saw it as an option in the dialogue I was like "Oh yeah, that's right, that is a plot thread. I almost forgot."
Already dealt with this, you did have plenty of motivations. The freaking Republic and Jedi Order was on the brink of obliteration for Christs sakes.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's what worked about the first game. It didn't try to weigh the world down with messages and deep meanings. It was a straight-forward story with a clear, desirable goal that the main character(s) were invested and interested in. We (and they) all knew what the prize was, how they had to obtain it, and what was at stake if they failed. People call it simple? Sure. But it worked beautifully. Flowed smoothly. Resolved satisfactorily. The sequel felt like a bumpy, lost, clusterbomb of aimless plot threads and ideas shoved in for the sake of an unchanging tone of "dark depth."
Yes, there is nothing wrong about a simple story told well. I don't actually have anything against Kotor I despite my scorn. Your words about Kotor II though make me 🙄. I've written tons over the years about how the plot-threads of Kotor II seemlessly flow into each other. You just didn't notice it because you seem to have been dead-set against the game from before you even played it.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
-Taris' Sith blockade and bombardment? Paragus Tommyknockers-esque emptiness mystery and Sith hunt with exploding asteroid field/planet.
Yeah, Paragus was a genuinely good mystery level (the first time around). Putting everything together when you talk to that HK-50 is a great moment.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
-Dantooine Jedi training? Quest-riddled Citadel station, romp through mercenary/beast-infested Telos plains and crash-landing on to massive plateau of secret Jedi snow temple.
I agree, Telos is kind of lame.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
-Tatooine's cave search? Korriban's journey in to Force-induced hypnosis in a Sith Tomb that imparts a confused moral.
Again a great level. The ESB-esque force vision quest was great and really makes the Exile much more of a character than another boring silent protagonist coughRevancough.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
-Kashyyyk's Wookiee slave trade? Dantooine's establishment of a stable government and the defense of the capital establishment from (Sith-backed? I don't remember) mercenaries.
What was wrong with Dantooine? The whole seceding from the Republic thing was neat imo.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
-Manaan's Kolto trade and neutrality violation? Nar Shadaa's bounty hunter war and the infiltration and explosive ending of a crime lord's space yacht.
Also awesome.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
-Leviathon escape and plot twist with first big boss fight? Ravager sabotage, twin twi'lek ambush, undead Sith Lord's praise splashed all over our face by Tobin, and said undead Sith Lord promptly dropping dead in the biggest anti-climax since Onderon. Speaking of...
Yeah, the Nihilus fight is utter crap. Other than that though the Ravager section is great.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
-Korriban's... detour through Sithville? Rampage through Dxun's gargantuan Sith temple with Mandalorian allies [b]followed later by a coup d'etat/defence of a planetary government via storming the royal palace and slaughtering everything. [/b]
Onderon's rampage up to the throne-room scene was amazing and you sir are a fool for not being as jazzed about it as I was.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The side quests came off as more important and more interesting (to every single character except Kreia) than the actual plot of Force death, Sith resurgence, and Life-eating undead demon spawn. Occasionally the game would remind us that that was a thing too, as well as the other plot about reconnecting with the Force and severing fatal bonds. But really, those were kind of brushed pass as a cursory reminder, rather than the driving heart of the game. I know it was supposed to be, but it didn't come off that way until the final act, when it was far to late to suddenly start giving a shit.
Nah. The reason the other stuff feels important is because its all tied in to some of the main points and themes of the game. Wounds, remember. 😉 These sections really serve to establish just how wounded and broken the Republic is. Do you not recall how often the state of the Republic is brought up and treated like a main plot point. Because it is, reinforced throughout these sections. It really underlines the tone of the game and establishes a rich setting and atmosphere. The Sith plot is also an element of this. Your quest to stop the Sith is fundamentally tied into to the state of the galaxy. What you do on these planets determines how the game plays out up to the culmination with your fight with the Sith.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The main character(s) don't seem all too invested and inspired, like they're phoning it in somehow, just reacting to the shit that happens around them. No real driving motivation (other than "You're a leader and I'm enthralled"😉, just going through motions because "Hey, we're supposed to do this now, right?"
Oh really? And how about the characters from Kotor I? Bastila and Carth are the only ones who actually seem driven to beat the Sith. Zaalbar, Mission and Canderous don't care and are just following you. The droids are bound to you. Juhani and Jolee are again, just following you, they have no personal stake in beating the Sith. And Revan? Is just on a mission from the Council. you have no real reason to be going after Malak other than that you're bound to Bastila and they ordered you to.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
G0-T0 is a playable character and someone the Exile trusted enough to let hang around the ship unsupervised. A character who would pull that stunt he pulled at the end of the game for no good reason other than to have more drama.Calo Nord was a guy who KO'd you if he counted to three and who wore really good armor. In fact, he provided exposition to Malak, off camera. And Bandon died.
No, it's much worse.
Not exactly, you don't trust him, you just can't get kick G0-T0 off or kill him or he'll activate the bomb inside himself.
Either way, I fail to see why seeing him order Bounty Hunters to kill the Exile outside of her presence is a bad thing. The Exile learns about it pretty damn quickly anyway.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Abrams Star Trek was an incredible Star Wars movie already. He just needs to do that again imo.
It was a really good remake of Star Trek. The character backgrounds, portrayals and interactions were all done fantastic.
I just didn't like the whole changing history and alternate timeline crap. Either make it a Prequel, or make it a Reboot Imo. But he tried to mix and match those two things which I didn't like.
None of that time travel nonesense for the new Star Wars please.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Um, in no way was it a prequel. It was a Alternate Universe ("reboot"😉 with a time-travel origin story ("point of departure"😉.That is literally the best thing they could've done, save making Seven-of-Nine-Quest.
It was a partial prequel. Showing Kirk taking and cheating that test(forgot what it's called), Kirk and Mcoy meeting for the first time and we see the line Mcoy gives Kirk for him to use as his nickname (Bones).
I would have preferred an actual reboot, not a changing history alternate timeline from this point, reboot.
The dates from the original Trek are outdated now anyway. Khan being a genetically enhanced human from the late 20th century and all this Star Trekking and meeting aliens only being 50 years away.
Kotor I started with action intensive plot and cool enemies. II started in a dull quiet place and literally nothing impressive. Part, where you control droid was especially boring.
Revan story was straight forward. You start as regular soldier and follow your duty. For exile it was very confusing. No idea who you are and why you are there at all, I at first assumed that character lost memory as well. Characters in Kotor I are indeed much more likeble. Second game didn't bring much new, you mostly wander in the same places as in first game and do the same things. On finding star maps you go into a new world and then into starforge - another epic place. In second one you return to Academy, where you've been already. Then you go onto an asteroid, where the part with drone was the most silly part in the game. Then, you do pretty much the same thing as in Sith Academy, go through pile of random Sith, nothing new.
At that point I didn't read any of SW books, so character's depth wasn't something I would pay much attention but I certainly didn't like them as much as in I.
Goddammit Neph... you're spaghettifying this.
Originally posted by NephthysFinished it twice, once on each ending. Another time got about 3/4 through. And about another dozen times I got 1/2 way through.
Before I start this, I've just got to ask: Did you actually finish the game? And get through all the characters dialogue. Because man, it sure doesn't sound like it from what you've written. Kreia 'one-note', lol.
Originally posted by NephthysShe annoys the piss out of me. Good for the voice actor, but the character is annoying. So. Goddamn. Annoying. I don't mind her backstory, her goals, or motivations--they were kinda unique, nothing wrong with them. But the character's character... sucks. She's the mean, derisive b*tch who's clearly evil. She doesn't stray too far from that. And you know what? That'd be fine. I'm okay with that personality. In moderation. But she's always around. You could fill a book with the amount of dialogue she has, and the sheer volume of that personality grates on me. "One-note" is an exaggeration, but she's not some super complex, awe-inspiring presence. She's 100% evil from the word go, she's overtly manipulating everything, and the character's character is unable to hide it. She plays the same notes on the same fiddle from start to end. And she's ubiquitous. Acchh.
Don't be ridiculous, Sara Kestelman does an incredible job voicing her, some of the best voice-acting I've ever heard and her dialogue is top-notch. Weak delivery? What on Earth are you talking about? Kreia is an amazing character. You don't even have to believe me, People have written essays about her for christs sake. Her strength as a character is well-recognised. She is in no way a weak character.
Originally posted by NephthysThe Hanharr/Mira cutaway doesn't bug me, as it concerns only their characters, and their characters don't mean much. You think they do, when Kreia blackmails him, but that subplot did nothing and went nowhere, so it was just a waste of time, really.
But the effect is much worse off. It would be very jarring for the player to suddenly be in control of a character they know nothing about. Why is Mira trying to save the Exile? Who is she? If we don't establish these things, the game suffers for it. It would be like if you entered the academy on Korriban in the first game and got captured then need to have Yuthura Ban rescue you. You'd be like what the ****, right? With HK and Jolee, you actually do need to use and talk to them before you can get to the Leviathon.
Originally posted by NephthysSee above. And I wouldn't say it was ingenious, but it could have been kind of neat. But again, the characters themselves? Meh. I always forget to use or talk to them--they and their story never held much interest.
And think about how much worse they would be if we had [b]nothing. Remember how much of a non-entity T3 was in Kotor I?Also their sub-plot is an ingenious deconstruction of Wookiee's and the lame 'life-debt' thing from Kotor I.[/B]
Originally posted by NephthysYou're not following me.
The separation of character knowledge and player knowledge is something that's in practically every game. You know Calo Nord survives Taris but the game doesn't exactly allow you to shoot him in the head after that rubble falls on him. Does that piss you off? You learn that Malak's planning to bombard the planet way before he actually does so in the game. Did not being able to warn everyone about it piss you off? You learn that Malaks sending bounty-hunters against you. Did not being able to track them down yourself really grind your gears?
Malak's scenes served only to further the plot. And there weren't many of them:
-Attack Taris, be evil.
-Keep attacking Taris, keep being evil.
-Re-introduce minor obstacle in Calo Nord, learn stuff off-camera.
-Introduce minor obstacle in Darth Bandon, still evil.
-Torture Bastila, relish in evil.
-Prepare Star Forge defenses, make sure everyone remembers you're evil. Laugh heartily.
Not much. And unlike KotOR II, the Main Character and Friends aren't in a position to do anything, one way or the other. We're already trying to stop Malak. We're told in the opening scrawl that he's evil. We already know Calo Nord is an enemy. Any idiot with the ability keep up already knows
Malak will try to convert Bastila. Beyond filling in some self-evident blanks in the plot and establish the villain, Malak's scenes didn't do much.
Many of the cutaways in the KotOR II explicitly show the player Kreia scheming and plotting behind the Exile's back. She and the others are constantly discussing your character and revealing damning/important traits/information about themselves. And the character you control is none the wiser, despite the player having heard every bit of it. Being unable to confront/react/do anything about this information is very frustrating. I would have appreciated Atton's confession as a former Sith assassin if I didn't already know he was keeping a huge secret and was outed as a murderer, by Kreia, in a cutscene back on Telos. I would have liked to discover the reason behind Mandalore's dedication in due time, except I was already told he was bribed/threatened in to protective services, by Kreia, in a cutscene back on Dxun.
And they're right there! On the ship! I can stop that "witch" (Atton's word, even he knew) right then and there. I should. She's clearly up to something. She clearly has a plan. She's clearly suspicious, and untrustworthy, and evil. And an admitted Sith Lord. And I can walk up to her and everyone's she been manipulating and confront them about it.
But I can't. Because my character doesn't know, so the option isn't available. That or she's functionally brain dead.
F*cking irksome.
Originally posted by NephthysA pox on your tea-swilling island for splicing all these up. I added numbers. Alright:
1.) But thats the thing, it isn't. Theres far more to the story beyond the Exile, it's your fault for assuming that everything in the game has to revolves around her. It doesn't, the characters have interests separate from the Exile, interactions outside of the Exile's presence. This isn't a failing of the game, to myself and many others its a huge strength. It's your own fault for being so self-centered and in assuming that the game should indulge that feeling. Tempest has been right all these years about how Kotor I strokes the players ego. It isn't a failing that Kotor II does not stoop to that level.2.) I don't see how this is negative to the game. Would you rather the characters only ever profess their feelings to you personally? You can't be frustrated that the characters actually talk about you to the other characters on the ship.
3.) Would you rather these people just show up unannounced and then you kill them? Kotor I introduced people planning to kill you, so you can't hold it against Kotor II to do the same.
4.) Only after you've expressed interest in them and they've reciprocated. In which case you aren't learning anything new to respond to.
5.) Atris. This is important to her story arc, and you'd just got done with having a huge conversation with her were you can chew her out for being hung up over you.
6.) Again again again, I don't see where you can feel frustrated for not being able to respond to things. You want to hunt people trying to kill down before they get the chance? You want to talk to people about how they feel about you (which would be incredibly lame btw)? You want to be able to go beat up G0-T0 and Kreia for pulling shit behind your back? Well too bad, you just missed the point of all these scenes. Especially that last one. They're supposed to be ominous and make you paranoid about what those characters are planning or whats going to happen. Do you think the Matrix is weaker because they reveal Cypher is evil half way through? Or Romeo and Juliet because it says plain as day that they die on the first goddamn page? Of course not, pulling this kind of thing is a legitimate narrative device.
And there is nothing wrong with it.
7.) Again, not really. Only the Kriea and G0-T0 stuff actually.
1.) I honestly don't know how you came to this conclusion. The entire story, from beginning to end, revolves around the Exile and her beautiful Wound. Nihilus wants to eat her, Scion wants to murder/rape her, and Kreia wants her to save the universe. The Jedi Masters view her as a terrible threat, Atris has an envy/hate girl-boner for her, all the PCs either want to f*ck her or use her for something, and the entire prologue revolves around her sale to a galactic crime lord. The game is more about her than the first was ever about Revan...
And he's right, the first game did stroke your ego. By making you the guy who single handedly won a war and caused another one. But you're not given the Divine Right of Awesomeness that the Exile is. In #1, the focus is actually more on acquiring Bastila. The Vulkars want to sell her, the Sith want to capture her, and Carth wants to rescue her. Taris dies because of Malak's desire for Bastila. Revan didn't enter in anyone's equation for a while. And even when he did, only Bastila (not even the player) knew about it. Then the focus switches to the Star Forge and stopping Malak, via both Revan and Bastila. He's not the be all-end-all.
And the characters actually treat Revan... appropriately, I want to say. To Bastila he's important as a means of victory, identity (as a worthy Jedi), and as a love interest. Everyone else treats you not as a god to be worshiped and protected and fawned over (like the Exile), but as a comrade (Carth, albeit suspiciously), a buddy (Mission), and debtor (Big Z), a leader/"employer" (Canderous), an inspiration (Juhani), an object of destiny (Jolee), and an owner/maker (the droids). They stick around for clear and varied reasons, not "because you're a natural leader who magnets people in to service via Force bonds"/who kicks so much ass and whom everybody needs. What a cop out way of not giving your character roster proper motivation.
2.) See second-last point. I'm role playing as one character (who is apparently pre-Anakin space Jesus). I don't want the spectator camera to substitute as a conduit of character growth and insight.
3.) See previous relevant point.
4.) Irrelevant to the point I was making. See #3.
5.) See #4.
6.) You're still missing the point (or maybe not by now, if you read that^ up there, but I'll recap).
First, the Matrix and Romeo + Juliet aren't interactive (yet), so the ability to influence what direction the story/protagonists take is non-existent. Unlike video-games.
Second, ominousness only works when there's something at stake. By creating fuzzy, confused motivations for the main character, I don't feel what's at stake, other than simply finishing the game. And literally showing us that the person closest to you is evil, deceitful, prone to machinations and scheming, take away all suspense and tension, and depletes the Ominous Tanks even more. The dark and sinister atmosphere the game tries to sow may have worked, had they not allowed Kreia to eliminate any sense of angst or purpose.
Originally posted by NephthysIt's not, it's just a final straw. On top of the unclear motivations, tedious Telos stage, spoiled villain, unconvincing atmosphere, unlikeable secondary characters, and technical peeves (Xbox version tends to lag in places, and the plethora of items and massive cash flow slows the pace of the game to a halt), that by the time the unnatural feeling expositions starts coming in via the cutscenes, I usually call it quits.
Wow. No offense, but this seems to me to be such a small problem with the game that I'm not even sure if it is a problem. I really don't understand how this is a deal-breaker for you.
Originally posted by NephthysDitto?
Well, you have bad taste then I guess. 😬
Originally posted by NephthysMore like the most boring character in the game. But unlike the other PCs, he's the only one not radiating dark-mystery-edgy-toughness. So it's a welcome change.
You mean, the worst character in the game? 😬
Originally posted by NephthysNope, and good thing too, because as far as I can remember, Star Wars doesn't do "themes". You know, beyond good vs. evil.
No, they don't. 😐Thats why you need to gather influence to get them to talk about it, remember? Because they're either lying about it or putting up a facade to hide it from you.
And about the dark, tragic past stuff? Um, yes? That's one of the main themes of the game, the ide of being [b]Wounded
. Most of the characters are wounded in some way. The fact that the characters are built around an actual theme is an undeniable strength. Does... does Kotor I even have a single theme? Just a little one?But no, I can see why that games story is so much superior to Kotor II's. 🙄 [/B]
Okay, here's where that "one-note" line isn't an exaggeration--you just identified it for me. The game plays the "wounded" tune to the nth degree, and it's stifling and boring. Hell, the first game had "wounded" PCs whose problems you fixed too, and that game pulled it off without the overwhelming cryptic bleakness of Dark Mystery Edgy Tough. The game's atmosphere wears out its welcome for me. Everything is just so f*cking dark, and it doesn't make it better. See: Revenge of the Sith.
Not done, gimme a... second (or 1000).
Cont'd
Originally posted by NephthysSo... is she not supposed to be likeable right away because she's the main villain? Or is she not supposed to be likeable later because she's the main villain. If the latter, then they failed--she's never likeable. If the former then they really failed--by having the main villain a part of the hero's crew and no one, not even the main hero, doing shit all about it. And the voice acting is done well, but the voice actors themselves speak in voices that irk me. See last part of last post about atmosphere and etc.
Urgh, bullshit. Anakin does not have as much depth as Kotor II's characters. Hanharr alone has more than him, go look up all those things I said about him the last time we argued about this.And you're really ragging on the dialogue and voice acting. Jesus Christ man, how is the dialogue (written by Drew freaking Karpyshan) and voice acting [b]worse
than Kotor I's? It's way superior!Also, Kreia isn't supposed to be likable, she's the main ****ing villain![/B]
Originally posted by NephthysAlso Bao-Dur, whom even you apparently missed. Huh...
I don't really know how to respond to this because its just so wrong and yet because liking a character is subjective you're not really wrong.But, man. You sure did miss a shit-ton of the characters. 😬 Calling Kreia 'one-note' is just mind-bogglingly disingenuous. I'm not going to go through all the characters though, that would be stupid.
Oh and you did forget Hanharr and T3 btw.
Exaggeration and all; see first post. But the rest definitely come closer than she does--she's the just the focus of my ire, being so important and all, yet so detestable in every way she shouldn't be.
Originally posted by NephthysYeah, I know they have depth, but they don't portray depth. Their voices don't emit these things, and I'm convinced it's because the developers insisted upon a dark and dangerous feeling tone for the whole game, so the PCs were relegated as conduits for that one and only tone. For that, they lack convincing humanity. They don't feel real.
That's funny, because I thought you were talking about Atton there for a second. Or Kreia. If you're going to just ignore the characters depth then don't blame the game when you end up hating them.
Originally posted by NephthysSee above and yesterday's post. They feel like cursory concerns. Things that are brought up on a check list of issues. The characters don't feel like they care--and considering the amount of sub-plot and villains and resolutions that need to be addressed, I'm not surprised that the game lacks any genuine sense of urgency or angst. Everyone and everything at stake feels passive.
Already dealt with this, you did have plenty of motivations. The freaking Republic and Jedi Order was on the brink of obliteration for Christs sakes.
Originally posted by NephthysI was dead-set for the game, no doubt in part because of all the praise. I was extremely disappointed by it and couldn't even finish it on my first playthrough. It took two additional tries before I finally trudged through it. The second time was no less arduous.
Yes, there is nothing wrong about a simple story told well. I don't actually have anything against Kotor I despite my scorn. Your words about Kotor II though make me 🙄. I've written tons over the years about how the plot-threads of Kotor II seemlessly flow into each other. You just didn't notice it because you seem to have been dead-set against the game from before you even played it.
Originally posted by NephthysI loved Peragus! Whenever I get the urge to try the game out again, that level is what I'm thinking of. The sense of mystery and foreboding was excellent. And it didn't carry over to the rest.
Yeah, Paragus was a genuinely good mystery level (the first time around). Putting everything together when you talk to that HK-50 is a great moment.
Originally posted by NephthysOutside of peragus, Korriban was my favorite part. It wasn't too long, had good tension, and was well executed. I just don't get what the ultimate point of it was. I don't recall it being mentioned again, or adding anything to anyone's character. Kinda like a Big Lipped Alligator Moment that was still fun to have around.
Again a great level. The ESB-esque force vision quest was great and really makes the Exile much more of a character than another boring silent protagonist coughRevancough.
Originally posted by NephthysSure was. And the NPCs helped make the stakes feel high.
What was wrong with Dantooine? The whole seceding from the Republic thing was neat imo.
Originally posted by NephthysEeeh... it was alright. Felt like a bit of a letdown to the whole bounty setup at Peragus (a world exploded because of it). It was a great way to kickstart events--murder mystery, Telos in jeopardy, the Republic's stability at risk--a lot of shit started with that bounty. But it just kind of... fizzled. Nothing of consequence really came of it.
Also awesome.
Originally posted by NephthysHere's where I think the plot got confused of itself. Nihilus was an imperceptible, eldritch entity that was built up as a force of pure dread and destruction. He should not have been the antepenultimate boss. All roads should have led to him on that haunted ship (and more character for the guy, and answers as well).
Yeah, the Nihilus fight is utter crap. Other than that though the Ravager section is great.
Originally posted by NephthysI always leave it last, and by then, I'm burnt out. I just wanted it to be over. And it was. In a very anti-climactic, why did this place matter (nothing seems to have changed) kind of way.
Onderon's rampage up to the throne-room scene was amazing and you sir are a fool for not being as jazzed about it as I was.
Originally posted by NephthysLumping these two together.
Nah. The reason the other stuff feels important is because its all tied in to some of the main points and themes of the game. Wounds, remember. 😉 These sections really serve to establish just how wounded and broken the Republic is. Do you not recall how often the state of the Republic is brought up and treated like a main plot point. Because it is, reinforced throughout these sections. It really underlines the tone of the game and establishes a rich setting and atmosphere. The Sith plot is also an element of this. Your quest to stop the Sith is fundamentally tied into to the state of the galaxy. What you do on these planets determines how the game plays out up to the culmination with your fight with the Sith.Oh really? And how about the characters from Kotor I? Bastila and Carth are the only ones who actually seem driven to beat the Sith. Zaalbar, Mission and Canderous don't care and are just following you. The droids are bound to you. Juhani and Jolee are again, just following you, they have no personal stake in beating the Sith. And Revan? Is just on a mission from the Council. you have no real reason to be going after Malak other than that you're bound to Bastila and they ordered you to.
I know what's stated to be important and relevant, but it doesn't feel it. I laud BioWare for their decision to stick with Star Wars' traditional singular theme of good vs. evil because it makes the plot less disjointed and more focused--stop Malak. The sequel has: heal yourself, get answers, get revenge(?), stop the bounty, rebuild the Order, save the Republic, save the Force, save Telos, stop Kreia. By trying to put in so many goals and threads for the main character they wound up sapping them all of urgency and focus. It really feels like you're just going along with the motions. There's just too much that needs to be resolved, and both the game and myself seem to lose interest in all of them eventually.
The first game's PCs are with Revan and his singular goal of stopping Malak. They feel invested. The second game's PCs feel blase and indifferent to most laundry list of issues and problems that need taking care of. I know this sounds counter-intuitive, but trying to make a game more cerebral does not guarantee that it's going to illicit passion and excitement, especially when many of its own characters feel to be lacking in such.
Originally posted by NephthysI'll be honest, I forgot about the bomb thing. Still a flimsy excuse considering how often he's away from the ship and engaged in combat. Shoot him then. Doesn't matter anyway. Like Mira and Hanharr, his ultimate purpose just seemed to be to create pointless drama with the drone. Like the whole bounty sub-plot (and most of the sub-plots) he just kind of fizzled out.
Not exactly, you don't trust him, you just can't get kick G0-T0 off or kill him or he'll activate the bomb inside himself.Either way, I fail to see why seeing him order Bounty Hunters to kill the Exile outside of her presence is a bad thing. The Exile learns about it pretty damn quickly anyway.
/fin
EDIT: Oh chocolate Jesus, look at all that.