Perhaps you need to go back to school and relearn what a concession is. My refusing to play along with said idiocy is no less a concession than when you refused to keep arguing with LeGenD.
So hey, what do you think of that feat of the Barsen'thors? While weakened they defeated an opponent possessed by an Ancient Sith Lord who's drawing power off of hundreds of Jedi Masters.
Thats some crazy shit imo.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps you need to go back to school and relearn what a concession is.
¿qué
You conceded that Sidious's potency is a Lucas-element, did you not? (You did.) You mistakenly concluded that his supremacy over all other Sith is a separate issue entirely. But if his supremacy is a result of his potency, then it is ultimately a Lucas-element and the statement is binding.
It was an easily coaxed concession that your opponent would then use to club you repeatedly into the head until you were buried neck-deep in the shit with which you surrounded yourself.
Granted, not all of your opponents are like myself: master strategists who can effortlessly manipulate you into such blunders, but there are others out there I'm sure.
Originally posted by Nephthys
My refusing to play along with said idiocy is no less a concession than when you refused to keep arguing with LeGenD.
Not remotely similar.
You openly initiate that sort of idiocy; you just don't like it when people stoop to that level and beat you at your own game.
It is for that reason that we make better lovers than enemies.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So hey, what do you think of that feat of the Barsen'thors? While weakened they defeated an opponent possessed by an Ancient Sith Lord who's drawing power off of hundreds of Jedi Masters.Thats some crazy shit imo.
Not familiar with this. Link?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
¿quéYou conceded that Sidious's potency is a Lucas-element, did you not? (You did.) You mistakenly concluded that his supremacy over all other Sith is a separate issue entirely. But if his supremacy is a result of his potency, then it is ultimately a Lucas-element and the statement is binding.
It was an easily coaxed concession that your opponent would then use to club you repeatedly into the head until you were buried neck-deep in the shit with which you surrounded yourself.
Granted, not all of your opponents are like myself: master strategists who can effortlessly manipulate you into such blunders, but there are others out there I'm sure.
Lolwut? His potency may be the cause that creates the effect of his supremacy, yet for all they are linked cause and effect are two separate things. A result is separate from the inciting incident. You being a douche and me blocking you are two separate things. You cannot claim that you performed both actions. Obviously.
Furthermore, Sidious' potency as Lucas has shown it is far below that of other Sith. The best thing Lucas' Sidious does is thrown some pods around. Compare this to say, Tulak Hord, who pulls starships from the sky. His 'potency' is spectacularly impotent in Lucas's work.
Duh.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not remotely similar.You openly initiate that sort of idiocy; you just don't like it when people stoop to that level and beat you at your own game.
It is for that reason that we make better lovers than enemies.
You don't listen very well do you? As I've said repeatedly the thing that irks me is self-righteous sanctimony and being talked down to, not your failed attempts at copying me.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not familiar with this. Link?
Vivicar mentions that his plague siphons power from its victims, all of which are Jedi Masters. Prior to this its believed that he only infected 6 people, yet after you defeat him he warns that if you kill him then those infected with the plague, which he claims to be hundreds of Jedi Masters, will also die. You can claim that he's lying but sure enough if you do kill him you're informed seconds later that theres been reports of dozens, perhaps hundreds of Masters that have indeed died, confirming Vivicars story. Thus he was siphoning power from up to hundreds of Jedi Masters at the time the Barsen'thor defeats him.
The Barsen'thor is weakened because to save those he's infected with the plague you need to use a shielding technique which saps your strength. Which you've already done 6 times at that point. Each time is draining to the point where you almost collapse afterwards.
Nephthys
Lolwut? His potency may be the cause that creates the effect of his supremacy, yet for all they are linked cause and effect are two separate things. A result is separate from the inciting incident. You being a douche and me blocking you are two separate things. You cannot claim that you performed both actions. Obviously.
Cause and effect pertain to actions and events, Neph. Sidious's power qualifies as neither: it is a status, a characteristic, a trait.
You have clumsily attempted to conflate Sidious's power and Sidious's power compared to other Sith as being two separate phenomena. But in fact they are the same: it isn't a separate power that elevates Sidious above his predecessors and apprentices, it is the same power inherent to the character. Since that power originated with Lucas, reflections and descriptions of that power are clearly G-canon elements.
If you intend to distinguish Sidious's power and Sidious's power over other Sith, you need to prove that each is a separate, distinct phenomenon. Otherwise, it is simply the same power compared to the abilities to other Sith.
Unless your next post carries such proof, I will take this as a concession on your part.
Nephthys
Furthermore, Sidious' potency as Lucas has shown it is far below that of other Sith. The best thing Lucas' Sidious does is thrown some pods around. Compare this to say, Tulak Hord, who pulls starships from the sky. His 'potency' is spectacularly impotent in Lucas's work.Duh.
Even if we were to consider such stylistic differences as genuine interpretation of power: they are incongruous with the Force and its users as depicted in higher canon. Ergo, they are N-canon. 😬
And kindly prove that Tulak Horde pulled ships from orbit?
Nephthys
You don't listen very well do you? As I've said repeatedly the thing that irks me is self-righteous sanctimony and being talked down to, not your failed attempts at copying me.
Since I'm reading your words rather than hearing them, my listening really has no bearing on this discussion.
Anyway, all we've established is that I can provoke you with comical ease and corral you into any location, position, or state of mind that I so please. That I can do so by either lecturing you or successfully undermining every position you've ever held is simply testament to how complete my victory over you is. excellent
As for the feat, I'll check it out later. It sounds pretty beastly, but one can never rely on your interpretation.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And kindly prove that Tulak Horde pulled ships from orbit?
In SWTOR if you walk past the crashed Endar Spire with Khem Val, he'll remark 'the great Tulak Hord once pulled a ship this size from the sky.'
LeGeND's even shown that its a better feat than Yoda smacking those transports together, based on the Endar Spires size.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cause and effect pertain to actions and events, Neph. Sidious's power qualifies as neither: it is a status, a characteristic, a trait.You have clumsily attempted to conflate Sidious's power and Sidious's power compared to other Sith as being two separate phenomena. But in fact they are the same: it isn't a separate power that elevates Sidious above his predecessors and apprentices, it is the same power inherent to the character. Since that power originated with Lucas, reflections and descriptions of that power are clearly G-canon elements.
If you intend to distinguish Sidious's power and Sidious's power over other Sith, you need to prove that each is a separate, distinct phenomenon. Otherwise, it is simply the same power compared to the abilities to other Sith.
It was a metaphor you asschin. I was demonstrating the way in which Sidious' power and the fact (question mark) that Sidious' power is superior to other Sith Lords are two separate things. Your own definition defeats your point. Sidious' trait of his power and his status as being the Most Powerful are two different things.
Lucas never established such a thing though. He never established Sidious' power level relative to other Sith. As such your point is completely ludicrous.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Unless your next post carries such proof, I will take this as a concession on your part.
You mean, do the very thing you're trying to demonstrate to me makes you lose? Wow, nice job of repeating your argument there.
Go ahead, concede to me by not responding. I double dare you. 😉
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even if we were to consider such stylistic differences as genuine interpretation of power: they are incongruous with the Force and its users as depicted in higher canon. Ergo, they are N-canon. 😬
No they're not. Why would they be incongrous?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Since I'm reading your words rather than hearing them, my listening really has no bearing on this discussion.Anyway, all we've established is that I can provoke you with comical ease and corral you into any location, position, or state of mind that I so please. That I can do so by either lecturing you or successfully undermining every position you've ever held is simply testament to how complete my victory over you is. excellent
Listening to someone is not limited to only doing so with your ears. It simply means that you're paying attention, which you obviously haven't been.
Though you seem to have rectified that by choosing to posture instead of challenge my claim that its your insufferable lecturing that irritates me, not your mimicking ways. Hopefully it'll stick this time.
I graciously accept your concession, Neph. stoned
Nephthys
In SWTOR if you walk past the crashed Endar Spire with Khem Val, he'll remark 'the great Tulak Hord once pulled a ship this size from the sky.'LeGeND's even shown that its a better feat than Yoda smacking those transports together, based on the Endar Spires size.
So we only have Khem Val's word that this event occurred?
What's amusing to me is people parading under the banner of objectivity, when none exists. Gideon is a Sidious fanboy, Legend is an ancient sith fanboy, badda bing badda boom. While there's evidence for Sidious' greatest ever title, I fail to understand how quotes that came before newer material came out, can encompass said material.
Originally posted by steveholt955
What's amusing to me is people parading under the banner of objectivity, when none exists. Gideon is a Sidious fanboy, Legend is an ancient sith fanboy, badda bing badda boom. While there's evidence for Sidious' greatest ever title, I fail to understand how quotes that came before newer material came out, can encompass said material.
What's amusing to me is that you've pointed the finger at everyone but yourself. So, just to get that out in the open: you're a Vitiate fanboy.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I graciously accept your concession, Neph. stonedSo we only have Khem Val's word that this event occurred?
What I get is that you're conceded the point, acknowledged that you can't win the argument on any field, and introduced a subject change and quietly slunk off to lick your wounds.
Indeed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
What I get is that you're conceded the point, acknowledged that you can't win the argument on any field, and introduced a subject change and quietly slunk off to lick your wounds.Indeed.
Nice.
Except for the fact that you were the one who introduced this subject change to begin with and you conceded the point by failing your burden. 👆
But don't let the request for proof stop you from running for the hills, Neph. You've never been good with the whole evidence thing. 😂
I didn't introduce the subject change, I used an example and you changed the subject to talk about my example. Oh and, its totally okay not to respond to the guy if you just claim they've failed their burden? F*ck, slow down Temp, I'm wearing out some good note taking pens here.
What request for proof? That Sidious' trait of his power and his status as being the Most Powerful are two different things? They're metaphysical concepts that only exist in our minds. Words that mean different things. The only proof that can be offered to differentiate the two is my logic and my explanation of the difference between them, which I've supplied to you. Your trollish refusal to accept that doesn't mean that I have not offered it to you however, merely that you refuse to accept it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't introduce the subject change, I used an example and you changed the subject to talk about my example.
Nein. You used it as an example and I asked you for proof in my greater response to your argument. No subject change.
But I also told you that if you failed in your burden again, it would be taken as an automatic concession on your part. You failed in your burden; you conceded the point.
Then I asked you to clarify as to the extent of the "proof" you offered... which consists of a random character apparently making an unsupported claim about another character.
I'm simply discussing a subject you introduced. It's not my problem that, as usual, you apparently have nothing more to offer.
You trying to make this about subject changes is, by the way, another subject change for you. 👆
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh and, its totally okay not to respond to the guy if you just claim they've failed their burden? F*ck, slow down Temp, I'm wearing out some good note taking pens here.What request for proof? That Sidious' trait of his power and his status as being the Most Powerful are two different things? They're metaphysical concepts that only exist in our minds. Words that mean different things. The only proof that can be offered to differentiate the two is my logic and my explanation of the difference between them, which I've supplied to you. Your trollish refusal to accept that doesn't mean that I have not offered it to you however, merely that you refuse to accept it.
No, proof for Tulak Horde pulling down the ship, hence why I quoted it and asked you for clarification. Your reading comprehension is characteristically deficient, but seems to be faltering even more.
As to the rest, you have failed to make your case. You openly conceded that Sidious's power is a Lucas-derived trait; since that G-canon power is measured against the power of other characters and is not an inherently separate phenomenon, we must conclude that his supremacy is a reflection of what originated with Lucas, in other words: a G-canon element.
You telling me that a blue sky is green doesn't make it so and I'm not interested in explaining it to you further. This should be sufficient. If not, perhaps tomorrow's medical technology will enable us to bolster your moribund neurons.
Now, what else do you have beyond Khem Val's word to support the idea that Tulak Hord pulled a ship from orbit?
I think I have to side with Neph's interpretation of canon.
There are two camps, and unless I have misread something, they are as follows:
1. Neph: Aspects of the Sidious character are G-canon; the movies establish a certain level of power and baseline personality. Other aspects, especially those statements which compare Sith Lords throughout history, are C-canon because they originate in works by third-party authors.
2. Temp: The Sidious character itself is G-canon, by dint of its inclusion in the movies. Other sources which feature the character only reveal facets of the same entity. Thus, the conglomeration of Sidious quotes is G-canon by proxy, because they deal with a G-canon character.
This can be boiled down to a simple question of logic. Is the Sidious<>Sith comparison a single-relation predicate (i.e. "The most powerful iteration of Sith is [Sidious's Power]"😉 or a multiple-relation predicate ("Sidious is a more powerful iteration of Sith than [x]"😉. For my part, comparisons of power usually have to include both superior and subordinate party. So it seems that the honest path is to compare Sidious to any given challenger.
Given that Lucas does not recognize the existence of any EU characters, considering such comparisons to be G-canon seems specious at best.
Even though siding with Zampano and Nephthys typically means you're probably going to get flamed a great deal simply via association, I'm afraid I have to in this case Gid. I mean, you could practically apply that same line of reasoning to the Star Wars Galaxy itself and then declare the entirety of canon, G-canon, simply as it all essentially explores that very same entity from varying perspectives.