The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
American's where it's at. Which class would you most recommend to play through first?

It really depends on which class you'd enjoy and your personal taste. I did a basic run down, so I'll post that here:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Smuggler is definitely more comedic in tone than the other storylines. I really like it. As King said each storyline is different so you'll like the one thats most what you're looking for:

Jedi Knight is very Heroes Journey. You save planets, you fight Sith Lords, you make big moral decisions and you beat the Big Bad at the end. You are Luke Skywalker.

Jedi Consular is more introspective and for people who like the Lore of Star Wars and the idea of Jedi being healers and diplomats while still being badass.

Smuggler is a quirky comedy of a charismatic smuggler bouncing from one situation to the next.

Trooper is Tom Clancy in space. If you like roleplaying as an elite soldier then this is for you.

Sith Inquisitor is about your rise to power. Whether Light or Dark it about you gaining as much power as you can to defeat your enemies and succeed in your ambitions.

Sith Warrior is a fairly mature look into the life of a Sith. You're either out to improve the Empire from within or to be the baddest Sith you can be. You're basically Darth Vader except you can be a good guy if you want (and in fact this is highly recommended).

Imperial Agent is James Bond in space. If you like twists, turns, subplots, intrigue you'll like it. Pretty well written. Like the Trooper storyline a big part of it is roleplaying as a competent and professional secret agent of the state. It does well in that regard.

Bounty Hunter is if you like running around with your crew fighting various obstacles in order to become 'The Best'. Also Tarro Blood is a real a**hole who you love to hate in the first Act.

They're all good in their own way depending on which genre you like best.

Furthermore, if you can I highly recommend checking out the first post of THIS THREAD, as it has good information about the game and a basic rundown of the classes (don't listen to the JOKE about playing as a non-advanced class Jedi Knight in the thread. Its just a joke).

Personally for you though I'd recommend Jedi Consular, Imperial Agent or Sith Warrior.

As for gameplay I suggest you look at some videos on youtube to get the gist of each class.

Awkward silence.

Originally posted by ares834
Sounds promising.

I'm tentatively intrigued.

It's just interesting how complaints against the prequels can be so starkly different. Stoklassa reamed them for explaining to little; this guy takes umbrage because they explained too much.

Fascinating.

Just finished reading the Kenobi novel. It was surprisingly good. However, before reading it I'd recommend reading the comic Outlander first.

Yeah, Kenobi was good. Not the sort of thing that piques my interest, but I can't deny the quality. JJM is a credit to the EU.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm tentatively intrigued.

It's just interesting how complaints against the prequels can be so starkly different. Stoklassa reamed them for explaining to little; this guy takes umbrage because they explained too much.

Fascinating.

Stoklassa? That the guy who does the RLM reviews? Because I always thought they were full of shit TBH.

Anyway, I tend to agree with this guy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, Kenobi was good. Not the sort of thing that piques my interest, but I can't deny the quality. JJM is a credit to the EU.

Agreed. Plus it was nice to have a small scale novel for once. Reading about endless galactic threats get tiring.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm tentatively intrigued.

It's just interesting how complaints against the prequels can be so starkly different. Stoklassa reamed them for explaining to little; this guy takes umbrage because they explained too much.

Fascinating.

Anyway, I'd say that Diaz has a pretty good chance of making something memorable. His characterizations are always really distinctive and 100 years pre-TPM is pretty much a sandbox.

ares834
Stoklassa? That the guy who does the RLM reviews? Because I always thought they were full of shit TBH.

Anyway, I tend to agree with this guy.

Well, I didn't hop aboard the bandwagon with the same effortless zeal as did our resident Canadian, but Stoklassa certainly did open my eyes to flaws in the prequels that I had before been unable to articulate.

The biggest one off the top of my head is the pacing. Consider Anakin's confession to Mace in ROTS that Palpatine is Sidious. In the novel, both Anakin and Mace are devastated by this truth and its implications.

In the novel, Anakin appears merely uncomfortable and Mace merely inconvenienced. And despite their stated urgency, both physically move robotically and lethargically.

That said, I also enjoyed Jim_Raynor's rebuttal to Stoklassa that did indeed prove much of RLM's criticisms were of the full-of-shit variety.

ares834
Agreed. Plus it was nice to have a small scale novel for once. Reading about endless galactic threats get tiring.

There need to be more of these smaller scale stories, no doubt. But they probably could have picked a more exciting one to tell.

Z.
Storklassa?

RLM.

Z.
Anyway, I'd say that Diaz has a pretty good chance of making something memorable. His characterizations are always really distinctive and 100 years pre-TPM is pretty much a sandbox.

The guy is obviously thoughtful and your endorsement means something (despite your misplaced affection for KOTOR 2).

But I reject some of his arguments about the failures of the prequels, though undeniably flawed they are.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, I didn't hop aboard the bandwagon with the same effortless zeal as did our resident Canadian, but Stoklassa certainly did open my eyes to flaws in the prequels that I had before been unable to articulate.

The biggest one off the top of my head is the pacing. Consider Anakin's confession to Mace in ROTS that Palpatine is Sidious. In the novel, both Anakin and Mace are devastated by this truth and its implications.

In the novel, Anakin appears merely uncomfortable and Mace merely inconvenienced. And despite their stated urgency, both physically move robotically and lethargically.

That said, I also enjoyed Jim_Raynor's rebuttal to Stoklassa that did indeed prove much of RLM's criticisms were of the full-of-shit variety.

Although he's typically a great and funny reviewer, and makes some excellent points...like many PT bashers, he goes out of his way to pad his time, and add in more commercial breaks, with incoherent and dumbass points. His inability to understand that the PT characters' and organizations' incompetence and inflexibility were intentional is particularly damning.

Mike Wong makes a good point in defense of the PT's wooden dialogue and horrible romance; it's supposed to be a Shakespearean, conceited, and overly rigid society. And Anakin and Padme are both sexually repressed and inexperienced; they're not supposed to act natural, witty or comfortable around the opposite sex.

...but yeah, the PT's have such a large heap of failures, it feels embarrassing just defending it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, I didn't hop aboard the bandwagon with the same effortless zeal as did our resident Canadian, but Stoklassa certainly did open my eyes to flaws in the prequels that I had before been unable to articulate.

The biggest one off the top of my head is the pacing. Consider Anakin's confession to Mace in ROTS that Palpatine is Sidious. In the novel, both Anakin and Mace are devastated by this truth and its implications.

In the novel, Anakin appears merely uncomfortable and Mace merely inconvenienced. And despite their stated urgency, both physically move robotically and lethargically.

That said, I also enjoyed Jim_Raynor's rebuttal to Stoklassa that did indeed prove much of RLM's criticisms were of the full-of-shit variety.

It's been awhile since I watched it and I only saw TPM review, but I found myself disagreeing with the vast majority of his points and the supposed plot holes he brings up. In fact, the only point I can recall that I found myself readily agreeing with was his assessment of the lightsaber duels.

You should take a gander at Jim Raynor's rebuttal of RLM's TPM review, Ares.

Originally posted by Master Han
Although he's typically a great and funny reviewer, and makes some excellent points...like many PT bashers, he goes out of his way to pad his time, and add in more commercial breaks, with incoherent and dumbass points. His inability to understand that the PT characters' and organizations' incompetence and inflexibility were intentional is particularly damning.

Mike Wong makes a good point in defense of the PT's wooden dialogue and horrible romance; it's supposed to be a Shakespearean, conceited, and overly rigid society. And Anakin and Padme are both sexually repressed and inexperienced; they're not supposed to act natural, witty or comfortable around the opposite sex.

...but yeah, the PT's have such a large heap of failures, it feels embarrassing just defending it.

I've found that, in life, extremism tends to be inaccurate. The prequels are, in my opinion, unquestionably flawed (as is every story); to what degree they are flawed is open to debate.

It's ultimately a subjective enterprise. For me, I found that Anakin and Padme's awkwardness and clumsiness is justified by their personalities and background. (Though I do not excuse the terrible dialogue in its entirety.) I also found that Anakin was too unlikeable even for a man on the precipice of moral decay. I found that Palpatine's rise to power was engrossing and compelling for mainstream science fiction, given the predilection for Big Bads to merely ascend to the top of the heap through force. I found that the heroes are not nearly as incompetent as suggested. And while I find the Jedi order's failures and foibles to be justified by the plot, I think the overwhelming rigidity of the characters, setting, and dialogue did the films enormous disservice.

Not to get into a debate here, but theres a way to do awkward and still pass it off as interesting to watch and engaging. Anakin and Padme's relationship isn't awkward because of their characters imo, but because the scenes are just that bad that it comes off as stilted, unemotive and unbelievable.

And I just could be engrossed with Sidious' rise because of TMP) The senate scenes were awful, boring messes and AotC) "If only..... Senator Amidala was here." facepalm

RotS Sidious was good for how gleefully evil he was, though he was too hammy at times ("no... no you have lost!"😉.

The Jedi's incompetence is also not done well as you said. You can have incompetent characters and have them be believable. The PT Jedi's mistakes are just not relateable imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not to get into a debate here, but theres a way to do awkward and still pass it off as interesting to watch and engaging. Anakin and Padme's relationship isn't awkward because of their characters imo, but because the scenes are just that bad that it comes off as stilted, unemotive and unbelievable.

No arguments here, though I don't believe the entirety of their interaction is unenjoyable.

But I simply agree with Mike Wong (and, by extension, Han) that this was not intended nor should it have been portrayed as a smooth, slick love affair bristling with romantic chemistry.

These are two talented but fvcked up people stumbling into love. Think Dexter and Rita.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I just could be engrossed with Sidious' rise because of TMP) The senate scenes were awful, boring messes and AotC) "If only..... Senator Amidala was here." facepalm

RotS Sidious was good for how gleefully evil he was, though he was too hammy at times ("no... no you have lost!"😉.

The Senate scenes were depicted tonally consistent with real world Senate scenes. It was like watching C-SPAN with aliens; I don't and can't fault Lucas for not making the politics enrapturing for the ignorant.

With respect to Palpatine, McDiarmid was undeniably hammy at various points in ROTS. Otherwise, he crafted a charismatic and highly acclaimed villain throughout all three films. I appreciate the inherent subtlety of his performance; McDiarmid treats Palpatine as the consummate actor and acts accordingly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Jedi's incompetence is also not done well as you said. You can have incompetent characters and have them be believable. The PT Jedi's mistakes are just not relateable imo.

Nothing that the Jedi did was outside the realm of realistic incompetence. The whole world watched Adolf Hitler rise to absolute power in Nazi Germany beneath the comfort of rose-tinted glasses.

And unlike Palpatine, Hitler flat-out asked for his emergency powers.

Meh, I keep flip flopping.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nothing that the Jedi did was outside the realm of realistic incompetence.

The intentional incompetence was subtle and well executed, in some cases possibly brilliant (maybe).

The unintentional incompetence stemming from bad writing, however, is just nauseating.

Like, why does Obi Wan jump down to confront Grievous, only to get surrounded by a massive army of battle droids that could have killed him within milliseconds? Why doesn't Mace Windu warn the Jedi of the identity of their Supreme Chancellor before going to confront him? Why doesn't Anakin ever try freeing her mother from slavery? Are you telling me he never got a day off over the decade? I suppose the OT isn't devoid of similar faults, but it sort of stretches suspension of disbelief.

God I love this song:

YouTube video

Originally posted by Master Han
Like, why does Obi Wan jump down to confront Grievous, only to get surrounded by a massive army of battle droids that could have killed him within milliseconds?

Well, this is the same man who willingly and casually leaped through a skyscraper window on Coruscant in pursuit of an assassin droid in AOTC.

Tactically unfeasible, sure, but then Obi-Wan was merely attempting to keep their attention long enough to facilitate the clone ambush.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why doesn't Mace Windu warn the Jedi of the identity of their Supreme Chancellor before going to confront him?

The movie never intimates that he doesn't and, in fact, the novel blatantly suggests he did.

Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan evince surprise that Palpatine is Sidious by the time they find visual confirmation of that fact in the Temple.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why doesn't Anakin ever try freeing her mother from slavery?

It seems highly probable that Obi-Wan would have obstructed him. AOTC does imply that his mission to protect Padme is the first time they've been apart for an extended period that would afford Anakin that chance.

Originally posted by Master Han
Are you telling me he never got a day off over the decade? I suppose the OT isn't devoid of similar faults, but it sort of stretches suspension of disbelief.

No doubt that my suspension of disbelief is stretched by some of it. But I just don't think it's all inexcusable.

No real arguments here except....

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Senate scenes were depicted tonally consistent with real world Senate scenes. It was like watching C-SPAN with aliens; I don't and can't fault Lucas for not making the politics enrapturing for the ignorant.

Well I can and do. Legal action is boring as ****, yet shows such as Law and Order and Shark make it interesting and engaging despite that. And they do the same thing politicians do, just make speeches. You can hardly say there was no way Lucas could have made those scenes interesting. 😬

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I can and do. Legal action is boring as ****, yet shows such as Law and Order and Shark make it interesting and engaging despite that. And they do the same thing politicians do, just make speeches. You can hardly say there was no way Lucas could have made those scenes interesting. 😬

Comparing high-paced murder trials of Shark (the only entertaining show you mentioned) to a gradual, decade-long rise to power is... silly.

I'm only referring to the boring senate scenes. There's plenty of ways to show politikz in action without being tedious about it. The formation of the Empire in RotS for example.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm only referring to the boring senate scenes. There's plenty of ways to show politikz in action without being tedious about it. The formation of the Empire in RotS for example.

The formation of the Empire in ROTS was literally Palpatine coming out and declaring the Empire. It's powerful and one of Joss Whedon's favorite scenes incidentally, but it is the fruition of all those boring and tedious scenes that enables Palpatine to do that.

If Palpatine just gives a fiery speech and gets Imperial on everyone's ass in the very first scene, the movies suffer even worse.