Originally posted by The_Tempest
Comparing high-paced murder trials of Shark (the only entertaining show you mentioned) to a gradual, decade-long rise to power is... silly.
Originally posted by Zampanó
So then let's look at Boston Legal. The long-decline of Denny Crane was handled, if not subtly then at least carefully. There isn't a whole lot that can be said for Chancellor "if only Senator Amidala were here" Palpatine.
Comparing the character arc of a protagonist of a five-season, forty-five minutes per episode long television series to the requisite political scenes that must occur in three movies is also... silly.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The formation of the Empire in ROTS was literally Palpatine coming out and declaring the Empire. It's powerful and one of Joss Whedon's favorite scenes incidentally, but it is the fruition of all those boring and tedious scenes that enables Palpatine to do that.If Palpatine just gives a fiery speech and gets Imperial on everyone's ass in the very first scene, the movies suffer even worse.
I'm not saying copy the scene you fool. I just mean that you can do politics while still having momentum in the scene and actual ****ing energy.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, this is the same man who willingly and casually leaped through a skyscraper window on Coruscant in pursuit of an assassin droid in AOTC.
If we give Lucas the benefit of the doubt, we could assume that he was trying to suggest that Anakin, for all his bitchiness, was right about needing to investigate the assassination attempts on Padme, and that the stoic High Council/Obi Wan recognized this when shit actually hit the fan.
...the Grievous blunder has no real excuse.
Tactically unfeasible, sure, but then Obi-Wan was merely attempting to keep their attention long enough to facilitate the clone ambush.
Yeah...I know you know this is complete bullshit, given that there's no indication that Obi Wan bought time, or needed to buy time, for the minute and a half he fights Grievous and his guards.
This would lead to the question of why Obi Wan doesn't just assign one of his warships to annihilate Grievous from orbit, or perhaps tag him as a target for a sniper squad. I guess you could reasonably justify this by pointing out that the Jedi seem to have a retarded honor code, as demonstrated by their masochistic failure in the Geonosis Arena. So, some failures are believable...others, not such much.
The movie never intimates that he doesn't and, in fact, the novel blatantly suggests he did.Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan evince surprise that Palpatine is Sidious by the time they find visual confirmation of that fact in the Temple.
The novel suggests he contacted Yoda. But if all the Jedi knew Palpatine was a sith lord...they would be immediately suspicious of their clone troopers, and certainly would not heed a hologram message telling them to return to Coruscant.
Or, possibly, he could have tucked a live recording device into his pocket, to broadcast Palpatine's whipping his saber out.
It seems highly probable that Obi-Wan would have obstructed him. AOTC does imply that his mission to protect Padme is the first time they've been apart for an extended period that would afford Anakin that chance.
Yeah...seeing as Anakin casually ignores orders over the few days that the episode takes place in, it's an understatement to label it a stretch that Anakin would heed such an order over a decade. And it certainly doesn't cast the Council/Obi Wan in a non-socipathic light, that they never thought to free an innocent woman from slavery.
I mean, as "Confused Matthew" pointed out, Obi Wan had just been returning from a "border dispute" in AotC, which the Order apparently has time for. Too bad for the galaxy's slaves, though.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not saying copy the scene you fool. I just mean that you can do politics while still having momentum in the scene and actual ****ing energy.
What momentum is lacking? Each film had a major political set-piece and all concerned Palpatine: in TPM, Valorum is ousted from power; in AOTC, Palpatine is granted emergency powers; in ROTS, he declares the formation of the Jedi.
Prior knowledge of this story's ultimate trajectory imbued each of those moments with momentum for me because I understood that each was a tremendous step along which a tyrant would obtain unlimited power.
That the ROTS scene is the standout is unsurprising; it is the culmination of that process. The exquisite climax, not the foreplay and initial penetration.
Originally posted by Master Han
If we give Lucas the benefit of the doubt, we could assume that he was trying to suggest that Anakin, for all his bitchiness, was right about needing to investigate the assassination attempts on Padme, and that the stoic High Council/Obi Wan recognized this when shit actually hit the fan....the Grievous blunder has no real excuse.
Eh?
Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah...I know you know this is complete bullshit, given that there's no indication that Obi Wan bought time, or needed to buy time, for the minute and a half he fights Grievous and his guards.
I didn't say buy time, I said keep their attention... which he does. The droids are focused on him, which makes them less likely to pay attention to extraneous shit.
For example, I have two eyes. If I'm looking at you, I'm less likely to be looking around at what may or may not be happening in the distance.
Originally posted by Master Han
This would lead to the question of why Obi Wan doesn't just assign one of his warships to annihilate Grievous from orbit, or perhaps tag him as a target for a sniper squad. I guess you could reasonably justify this by pointing out that the Jedi seem to have a retarded honor code, as demonstrated by their masochistic failure in the Geonosis Arena. So, some failures are believable...others, not such much.
More likely, they'd need visual confirmation of Grievous's death, since that is the entire reason why they make the trip to Utapau in the first place.
Originally posted by Master Han
The novel suggests he contacted Yoda. But if all the Jedi knew Palpatine was a sith lord...they would be immediately suspicious of their clone troopers, and certainly would not heed a hologram message telling them to return to Coruscant.
The novel suggests he also instructed Shaak Ti and the Gatemaster, I believe. But this aside, they had no proof that Sidious was the Sith Lord.
It would be like me hearing from a quasi-reliable source that George Bush was really Osama Bin Laden and the world pointing the finger at me for not running around and telling everyone in earshot.
Originally posted by Master Han
Or, possibly, he could have tucked a live recording device into his pocket, to broadcast Palpatine's whipping his saber out.
😐
You aren't suggesting that by not wearing a wire, Mace Windu is an irretrievable idiot, are you?
Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah...seeing as Anakin casually ignores orders over the few days that the episode takes place in, it's an understatement to label it a stretch that Anakin would heed such an order over a decade. And it certainly doesn't cast the Council/Obi Wan in a non-socipathic light, that they never thought to free an innocent woman from slavery.
Again, AOTC heavily implies that their separate assignment was the first in their partnership.
As far as the sociopathic Jedi are concerned, the prequels vividly illustrate the depths of their moral failure.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
What momentum is lacking?
The momentum in the scenes. They were boring, badly acted shite that killed the pacing as thoroughly as the Swamp of Sadness.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Prior knowledge of this story's ultimate trajectory imbued each of those moments with momentum for me because I understood that each was a tremendous step along which a tyrant would obtain unlimited power.
Well you're a ****ing wierdo.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The momentum in the scenes. They were boring, badly acted shite that killed the pacing as thoroughly as the Swamp of Sadness.
And once again we're back to subjectivism. Can't make you like the political scenes, bro. I can only tell you that politics tend not to induce adrenaline.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I didn't say buy time, I said keep their attention... which he does. The droids are focused on him, which makes them less likely to pay attention to extraneous shit.For example, I have two eyes. If I'm looking at you, I'm less likely to be looking around at what may or may not be happening in the distance.
Keep their attention? So the entirety of Grievous's surveillance network, specifically for detecting an incoming space fleet, extended towards the battle droids within 50 meters of his vicinity? He had no space-radar, no warships of his own, and no battle droids or observation centers anywhere else in the entire planet that he's supposed to control? All this to detect a fleet dropping out from hyperspace...in space?
More likely, they'd need visual confirmation of Grievous's death, since that is the entire reason why they make the trip to Utapau in the first place.
Yeah...there are plenty of manners to kill Grievous, and leave visual confirmation, that don't involve challenging him to an honor duel and hoping that his hundreds of battle droids don't shoot you to death.
The novel suggests he also instructed Shaak Ti and the Gatemaster, I believe. But this aside, they had no proof that Sidious was the Sith Lord.
They were convinced enough to try to arrest him, with drawn lightsabers. Better safe than sorry.
It would be like me hearing from a quasi-reliable source that George Bush was really Osama Bin Laden and the world pointing the finger at me for not running around and telling everyone in earshot.
Yeah, but if this "quasi-reliable source" were reliable enough for you to task him with spying on Bush in the first place, you certainly would not gladly hang around Texas's largest military bases, in a camp rumored to have the most dedicated Bush supporters.
😐You aren't suggesting that by not wearing a wire, Mace Windu is an irretrievable idiot, are you?
It's one of the numerous ways that he could have not f*cked up.
Again, AOTC heavily implies that their separate assignment was the first in their partnership.
So Anakin never had free time to travel on a space ship before? Not once? No holidays? No weekends?
As far as the sociopathic Jedi are concerned, the prequels vividly illustrate the depths of their moral failure.
Yeah, but they're supposed to care. They're tragic heroes, not negligent assholes.
Originally posted by Master Han
Keep their attention? So the entirety of Grievous's surveillance network, specifically for detecting an incoming space fleet, extended towards the battle droids within 50 meters of his vicinity? He had no space-radar, no warships of his own, and no battle droids or observation centers anywhere else in the [b]entire planet that he's supposed to control? All this to detect a fleet dropping out from hyperspace...in space?[/b]
Whoa, you're jumping ahead of me. That the distraction worked is in itself a glaring plot hole. I'm simply saying that Obi-Wan jumping down there (your original complaint) is justified.
Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah...there are plenty of manners to kill Grievous, and leave visual confirmation, that don't involve challenging him to an honor duel and hoping that his hundreds of battle droids don't shoot you to death.
And who's to guarantee that they would have worked, either? This is mere nitpicking and we can do it with any movie. You're shifting the goalpost from one complaint to another. You take issue with Obi-Wan challenging Grievous... but it is justified.
Originally posted by Master Han
They were convinced enough to try to arrest him, with drawn lightsabers. Better safe than sorry.
An overzealous action prompted by nervousness and uncertainty. No different from a cop holding his gun when approaching a potentially dangerous suspect.
Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, but if this "quasi-reliable source" were reliable enough for you to task him with spying on Bush, you certainly would not gladly hang around Texas's largest military bases, in a camp rumored to have the most dedicated Bush supporters.
Mace openly voices distrust in Anakin and his lack of faith in Anakin to accomplish his assignment to spy on Palpatine. Mace didn't trust Anakin with the job from the very beginning.
And I'm confused as to your analogy. The military base in question was the Jedi Temple, not Palpatine's office, and they had no reason to believe the clone army would gun them down without pretense.
Originally posted by Master Han
It's one of the numerous ways that he could have not f*cked up.
How could they not fvck up and still lose? This is no different from Neph's earlier claim on a previous thread that Palpatine's victory in the prequels owes to his corruption and not Jedi negotiation.
This is a zero sum game. By definition, Palpatine's triumph requires a Jedi screw up.
Originally posted by Master Han
So Anakin never had free time to travel on a space ship before? Not once? No holidays? No weekends?
I'll check his itinerary.
Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, but they're supposed to care. They're tragic heroes, not negligent assholes.
The two kind of blur together.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that "If only Senator Amidala were here" was objectively retarded and makes the whole thing unengaging and laughable because of how poor the storytelling, direction and dialogue was.
lmao
You're downright precious. Jar Jar openly reacted to Palpatine's bait and the whole thing is retarded? How many times have you been successfully baited by me? Are you literally retarded simply because I deliberately provoked you into a desired response?
You and others may have found his articulation of that phrase too obvious. (That might owe to the fact that you, unlike the folks in the room, know that Palpatine is evil.) But to the ignorant and the naive? Why should they interpret it as a deliberate sinister ploy?
Originally posted by Nephthys
God I love this song:
Good song.
But this one is even better:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Whoa, you're jumping ahead of me. That the distraction worked is in itself a glaring plot hole. I'm simply saying that Obi-Wan jumping down there (your original complaint) is justified.
It would be justified:
1. If Obi Wan knew that the entirety of Grievous's eyes towards the sky were a bunch of battle droids on the ground in a 50 square meter radius, at best (ROFLAMO). This is the guy in charge of the entire droid army.
2. If Obi Wan knew that Grievous, a known coward, would not simply order (or simply not stop) his droids to shoot Obi Wan to death.
The key being Obi Wan's knowing about plot holes in the script.
Just like Mace Windu's assuming that Dooku would kindly send battle droids against the Jedi, rather than...carpet bombing.
And who's to guarantee that they would have worked, either? This is mere nitpicking and we can do it with any movie. You're shifting the goalpost from one complaint to another. You take issue with Obi-Wan challenging Grievous... but it is justified.
It would be justified were it not for those hundreds of battle droids.
An overzealous action prompted by nervousness and uncertainty. No different from a cop holding his gun when approaching a potentially dangerous suspect.
I'm going to flip again and point out that their response was not overzealous, since they came this close to ending the sith threat for all time. They just never bothered to consider that Sidious obviously has "a plot to destroy the Jedi" (as Mace Windu sensed), and that all Jedi should therefore be very, very careful.
I mean, it should be a no-brainer for Windu to realize that, as Dooku was behind the Confederacy, and Palpatine was (allegedly) behind the clone army, the entire war was obviously a set up. And so the clones...especially given that Jango Fett, the template for the army, was Dooku's right hand man...
The Jedi are blind ideologically. They're still supposed to be intelligent.
Mace openly voices distrust in Anakin and his lack of faith in Anakin to accomplish his assignment to spy on Palpatine. Mace didn't trust Anakin with the job from the very beginning.And I'm confused as to your analogy. The military base in question was the Jedi Temple, not Palpatine's office, and they had no reason to believe the clone army would gun them down without pretense.
"not Palpatine's office" - eh? I'm referring to the various Jedi spread across the galaxy in military circumstances, who, despite apparently having been informed that Palpatine, Dooku's master, is behind everything, gladly continue to fight with their clones in what they now know to be a rigged war.
I'm using "know" loosely here. Perhaps the better words is "suspect".
How could they not fvck up and still lose? This is no different from Neph's earlier claim on a previous thread that Palpatine's victory in the prequels owes to his corruption and not Jedi negotiation.This is a zero sum game. By definition, Palpatine's triumph requires a Jedi screw up.
Yeah, but taking it out of universe for a second, some of those screw ups are the result of bad writing, not intentional characterization.
I'll check his itinerary.
He's hardly the type to follow one. If he wanted to save his mother, he'd do it - he hardly obeys orders.
The two kind of blur together.
Well, f*ck that.
Originally posted by ares834
Good song.But this one is even better:
That video was... so ****ing gay. haermm
Oh Gale..... Poor, poor Gale.......
Flip again and I'm gonna start calling you Neph, b1tch. Also, I'm too lazy to address this quote by quote.
[list=1]
[*]Obi-Wan likely made the assumption that if a high-profile Jedi Knight were to leap into the command center of his archenemy, his archenemy's minions would probably be more concerned with him than Utapauan cloud formations. That the ploy worked is a legitimate sign of droid incompetence. But Obi-Wan did indeed have justification for his seemingly foolhardy leap. That Obi-Wan took a gamble with Grievous being shot to death is consistent with a man who leaps out a skyscraper window in the dead of night in reckless pursuit of an assassin droid. He's willing to give his life for the cause.
[*]The Jedi's haste to act against Sidious was ultimately damning but again, justified in that, by waiting, they might have only enabled him to secure his advantage (as far as they knew); this is hardly an uncommon dilemma. Moreover, it is justified: these fvckers are conditioned to wage war against an entirely different breed of Sith and their haste is commensurate with their behavior.
[*]Palpatine was not "allegedly" behind the clones; Sifo-Dyas was. There is no sinister connection-- none-- between Palpatine and the clones that is known to the Jedi unless they happened to read Darth Plagueis.
[*]Who says he informed everyone across the galaxy? And who's to say that would be a bright idea?
[*]To each his own. The Jedi are moral failures but they weren't stupid. They just lost.
[/list]
👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Flip again and I'm gonna start calling you Neph, b1tch.
I was throwing you a bone. None of my "flips" were blunders or errors as much as they were indications of my moderation, or stepping stones to my overall point. Such as pointing out that UnuThul was more powerful than Luke to prove how awesome Luke is, etc.
Also, I'm too lazy to address this quote by quote.
Try this shit excuse again, and I'm gonna start calling you Gideon, whore.
[list=1]
[*]Obi-Wan likely made the assumption that if a high-profile Jedi Knight were to leap into the command center of his archenemy, his archenemy's minions would probably be more concerned with him than Utapauan cloud formations. That the ploy worked is a legitimate sign of droid incompetence. But Obi-Wan did indeed have justification for his seemingly foolhardy leap.
...
No, he didn't.
The notion that General Grievous could only focus on one individual at a time - despite controlling the planet, and despite focusing on a Jedi and watching the ****ing star system being entirely exclusive actions, is plain retarded. Obi Wan just won out, because his retardation happened to fit the script's retardation.
This is analogous to claiming that, if someone were to throw a shoe at George Bush at a press conference, or even, (god forbid) try to shoot him, the entire US intelligence system would redundantly focus its efforts on the one incident, and therefore ignore the giant Russian invasion fleet floating towards the West Coast.
Well, you admit that the droids' failure was pathetic, but there are two sides to this coin. Unless if he were aware of this (unrealistic, by your admission) level of stupidity, he was an idiot for relying on it, and therefore got by on dumb luck.
That Obi-Wan took a gamble with Grievous being shot to death is consistent with a man who leaps out a skyscraper window in the dead of night in reckless pursuit of an assassin droid. He's willing to give his life for the cause.
Leaping out of the window wasn't nearly as stupid as this. For one, it was an impulsive act, not a calculated one. For another, Kenobi could have handled most contingencies in such an event - he can clearly survive terminal velocity falls, knows with the Force if he'll make the jump...the only real danger would be if the droid were a bomb, but precognition would alert him to it.
[*]The Jedi's haste to act against Sidious was ultimately damning but again, justified in that, by waiting, they might have only enabled him to secure his advantage (as far as they knew); this is hardly an uncommon dilemma. Moreover, it is justified: these fvckers are conditioned to wage war against an entirely different breed of Sith and their haste is commensurate with their behavior.
It was certainly justified. What was not justified was that the Jedi around the galaxy made no attempts to defend themselves against both a clone and droid army that, they should have figured out, traced back to Palpatine.
[*]Palpatine was not "allegedly" behind the clones; Sifo-Dyas was. There is no sinister connection-- none-- between Palpatine and the clones that is known to the Jedi unless they happened to read Darth Plagueis.
Jango. Fett. Dooku's right hand man, and template for the clone army. Also, Palpatine clearly orchestrated the events, since:
1. He's Dooku master, and Dooku initiated the secession...which the Jedi clearly know was not a matter of political ideology
2. He is Darth Sidious, the figure that Dooku tells Obi Wan was in concert with Nute Gunray as early as TPM.
[*]Who says he informed everyone across the galaxy? And who's to say that would be a bright idea?
It would certainly be a bright idea, and that he did not is testimony to his stupidity. Revan made the same mistake in his even more horrible novel.
[*]To each his own. The Jedi are moral failures but they weren't stupid. They just lost.
[/list]
I disagree. They were stupid, thanks to PIS.
-----
Another plot hole that Lucas certainly did not intend:
How does deleting a planet from the Archives somehow prevent anyone from locating it? Is one seriously to believe that, in a 25,000 year old spacefaring civilization, only the Jedi have space charts? Does everybody lease copies of that galaxy-map-projection from the Temple? Is this how they make a profit? Do they hold a monopoly over space charts? Why couldn't Obi Wan just go to a f*cking pilot?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Tempest at the end of the day, that you need to go to this length to justify these scenes is proof enough that they're bad. Characters actions should be believable and apparently understandable, which evidently these scenes have failed in.
haermm
The fact that I need to address criticisms of a film does not constitute proof that the film is bad anymore than you addressing my criticisms of, say, The Dark Knight is proof that it is bad.