Originally posted by Master Han
Unless if he were aware of this (unrealistic, by your admission) level of stupidity, he was an idiot for relying on it, and therefore got by on dumb luck.
Or he correctly predicted the droids would react stupidly, thus making him a keen and insightful observer of the humanmechanical condition?
Originally posted by Master Han
Leaping out of the window wasn't nearly as stupid as this. For one, it was an impulsive act, not a calculated one. For another, Kenobi could have handled most contingencies in such an event - he can clearly survive terminal velocity falls, knows with the Force if he'll make the jump...the only real danger would be if the droid were a bomb, but precognition would alert him to it.
And precognition would not alert him to danger on Utapau, confronting Grievous... why?
Originally posted by Master Han
What was not justified was that the Jedi around the galaxy made no attempts to defend themselves against both a clone and droid army that, they should have figured out, traced back to Palpatine.
I think I'm going to stop here because we've trespassed on the enduring flaw in the argument provided by many PT critics. Your argument that links Palpatine to the creation of the clone army is the sole product of real-world suspicion born from the fact that you know Palpatine is the name attached to the evil Emperor in the OT.
According to the Kaminoans who created the clones, the order was issued by Sifo-Dyas; not Sidious or Palpatine. Palpatine was ostensibly informed of the clone army's existence when the Jedi were in AOTC.
That Jango Fett was the clone template and spotted alongside Dooku is hardly an act of redhanded conspiracy when one recalls that Fett is a mercenary; a gun-for-hire; a man with no national or governmental allegiance and works solely for maximized profit.
Now, if the Kaminoans fingered Dooku and not Sifo-Dyas as the guy who issued the order and then Fett was spotted by Dooku, then yeah, I'd concede to Jedi myopia.
As far as the rest goes, your argument would then require the Jedi to believe a second untrustworthy figure (Dooku, the traitor and enemy). Somehow I think that, in most situations, you'd agree that relying on the word of a traitorous enemy is probably not reasonable.
For me, if they could verify Dooku's claims and then prove Palpatine is Sidious, I would concede to your remarks. But ultimately, all that they know about Sidious comes from two sources the Jedi regard as questionable: Dooku and Anakin.
Everything else is pieced together from the perspective of a member of the viewing audience, not a galactic bystander. At best, you've provided grounds for mild suspicion, hardly confirmed fact.
I think it's best to just agree to disagree.
Originally posted by The_TempestI'll bandwagon you.
Well, I didn't hop aboard the bandwagon with the same effortless zeal as did our resident Canadian
The problem with the Sifo-Dyas thing isn't Palpatine's known or unknown involvement. The problem is Sifo-Dyas. Seriously, who was this guy? He gets a throwaway mention about ordering the clones and being killed, but no one ever bothers to wonder why a Jedi Master ordered clones and was killed. If it was Dooku (or "Sidi-Ous" as Lucas originally intended) then no more explanation needed: Dooku is a former Jedi leading a secessionist movement, and we later learn he's a willing puppet of a Sith Lord's evil schemes. Fine and dandy. But that's not what was said. We got this Sifo-Dyas character.
And he's not a character. He's a name that Obi-Wan spoke. But who was he? Why did he order the clones? Why did he keep it a secret? Was he working alone and this just worked in to Palpatine's plans, or was he in cahoots with Sidious and Dooku all along? How did he die? Did they kill him? Why? This person is fully involved in the events of these two films and by extension everything that happens in the OT. Not a little bit, but a f*cking lot. And beyond never even seeing what he looks like, we know absolutely nothing about him. Not a goddamned thing. This isn't some stupid Padawan that the clones kill that meant nothing, this is the guy who ordered the clones for some unknown reason that no one in the film seems to consider suspicious or questionable. They treat his actions like a curiosity, and the movie seems to think we're all caught up on who this guy was so it doesn't bother telling us anything about him. This entire subplot about the clones was introduced as a mystery and then promptly abandoned when the plot became too concerned with sword fights, battle scenes, and speeding along to the end credits. F*ck resolution.
I mean, there's plot holes... and then there's absolute emptiness.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'll bandwagon you.The problem with the Sifo-Dyas thing isn't Palpatine's known or unknown involvement. The problem is Sifo-Dyas. Seriously, who was this guy? He gets a throwaway mention about ordering the clones and being killed, but no one ever bothers to wonder why a Jedi Master ordered clones and was killed. If it was Dooku (or "Sidi-Ous" as Lucas originally intended) then no more explanation needed: Dooku is a former Jedi leading a secessionist movement, and we later learn he's a willing puppet of a Sith Lord's evil schemes. Fine and dandy. But that's not what was said. We got this Sifo-Dyas character.
And he's not a character. He's a name that Obi-Wan spoke. But who was he? Why did he order the clones? Why did he keep it a secret? Was he working alone and this just worked in to Palpatine's plans, or was he in cahoots with Sidious and Dooku all along? How did he die? Did they kill him? Why? This person is fully involved in the events of these two films and by extension everything that happens in the OT. Not a little bit, but a f*cking lot. And beyond never even seeing what he looks like, we know absolutely nothing about him. Not a goddamned thing. This isn't some stupid Padawan that the clones kill that meant nothing, this is the guy who ordered the clones for some unknown reason that no one in the film seems to consider suspicious or questionable. They treat his actions like a curiosity, and the movie seems to think we're all caught up on who this guy was so it doesn't bother telling us anything about him. This entire subplot about the clones was introduced as a mystery and then promptly abandoned when the plot became too concerned with sword fights, battle scenes, and speeding along to the end credits. F*ck resolution.
I mean, there's plot holes... and then there's absolute emptiness.
Personally, I never found exploration of Sifo-Dyas to be of paramount concern. (Though I’m glad as hell that George revised the original draft wherein Sifo-Dyas is Sido-Dyas; that’d be too obvious for the Jedi to overlook after Dooku attaches a name to the missing Sith Lord.)
As far as the audience is concerned, Fett informs Obi-Wan on Kamino that he was hired by “a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden” and the audience later learns that Tyranus is Dooku’s Sith alias, implicating the Count in the development of the clone army—if not its origins. Unfortunately for the Jedi, Dooku is less forthcoming with his Sith title than Maul, Vader, and Sidious and so never learn this critical detail.
To me, this is more or less exposition, just like in A New Hope where we’re told the Rebel Alliance has secured a technical readout of the Death Star. How did they get it? Who held it? Did Tarkin attach the wrong file in a careless email? Did he send a text to the wrong guy? It’s all fun to speculate but I don’t think it is critical that we get a full dossier and dating profile on Sifo-Dyas.
But then I’ve never been one who feels the need to tie up all the loose threads. For my part, Sifo-Dyas and the clone conspiracy was suitably creepy and far-reaching that while part of me likes to know more, I don’t think we need to for the story to continue.
But then I’m also a proponent of the notion that less is often more. The guy endorsed by Z. struck a resonant chord with me in that a crucial element of successful Star Wars is mystique and scope. I’ve often found that, particularly with the EU, the more we learn about a character or event—the less magical it becomes. Revan, Thrawn, Vitiate, even Plagueis and Palpatine to an extent.
That’s not to say that such things shouldn’t be explored (Dooku is a mysterious character who, when fleshed out in Dark Rendezvous, becomes even cooler), but I think the writers should tread lightly.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or he correctly predicted the droids would react stupidly, thus making him a keen and insightful observer of thehumanmechanical condition?And precognition would not alert him to danger on Utapau, confronting Grievous... why?
I think I'm going to stop here because we've trespassed on the enduring flaw in the argument provided by many PT critics. Your argument that links Palpatine to the creation of the clone army is the sole product of real-world suspicion born from the fact that you know Palpatine is the name attached to the evil Emperor in the OT.
According to the Kaminoans who created the clones, the order was issued by Sifo-Dyas; not Sidious or Palpatine. Palpatine was ostensibly informed of the clone army's existence when the Jedi were in AOTC.
That Jango Fett was the clone template and spotted alongside Dooku is hardly an act of redhanded conspiracy when one recalls that Fett is a mercenary; a gun-for-hire; a man with no national or governmental allegiance and works solely for maximized profit.
Now, if the Kaminoans fingered Dooku and not Sifo-Dyas as the guy who issued the order and then Fett was spotted by Dooku, then yeah, I'd concede to Jedi myopia.
As far as the rest goes, your argument would then require the Jedi to believe a second untrustworthy figure (Dooku, the traitor and enemy). Somehow I think that, in most situations, you'd agree that relying on the word of a traitorous enemy is probably not reasonable.
For me, if they could verify Dooku's claims and then prove Palpatine is Sidious, I would concede to your remarks. But ultimately, all that they know about Sidious comes from two sources the Jedi regard as questionable: Dooku and Anakin.
Everything else is pieced together from the perspective of a member of the viewing audience, not a galactic bystander. At best, you've provided grounds for mild suspicion, hardly confirmed fact.
I think it's best to just agree to disagree.
👆 Concession accepted.
Originally posted by The_TempestWith the Death Star plans we're not left in the dark about someone. At no point are we told that "top Rebel agent and super-genius _____ went behind the Alliance's back to make a secret deal with an Imperial official to obtain the plans." No person is discussed. No mystery motivation or death is brought up. And motivation is already clear. Rebels vs. Empire. Stealing their plans makes sense in that context.
Personally, I never found exploration of Sifo-Dyas to be of paramount concern. (Though I’m glad as hell that George revised the original draft wherein Sifo-Dyas is Sido-Dyas; that’d be too obvious for the Jedi to overlook after Dooku attaches a name to the missing Sith Lord.)As far as the audience is concerned, Fett informs Obi-Wan on Kamino that he was hired by “a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden” and the audience later learns that Tyranus is Dooku’s Sith alias, implicating the Count in the development of the clone army—if not its origins. Unfortunately for the Jedi, Dooku is less forthcoming with his Sith title than Maul, Vader, and Sidious and so never learn this critical detail.
To me, this is more or less exposition, just like in A New Hope where we’re told the Rebel Alliance has secured a technical readout of the Death Star. How did they get it? Who held it? Did Tarkin attach the wrong file in a careless email? Did he send a text to the wrong guy? It’s all fun to speculate but I don’t think it is critical that we get a full dossier and dating profile on Sifo-Dyas.
But then I’ve never been one who feels the need to tie up all the loose threads. For my part, Sifo-Dyas and the clone conspiracy was suitably creepy and far-reaching that while part of me likes to know more, I don’t think we need to for the story to continue.
But Sifo-Dyas has no context. He was a Jedi, not a Sith. And the Jedi know about him. They know he was killed. They know he went behind their backs and secretly ordered a clone army. If they had stuck with that being a false name for Sdious, then no more explanation is needed, just like with the Death Star plans; Sith vs. everyone else. Gotcha. In this case, it was a Jedi Master doing something huge, but no one knows why. The Sith never even mention his name or acknowledge he existed. At no point in the film is Sifo-Dyas connected to the Sith. The Kaminoans don't connect them, Jango doesn't connect them, Dooku doesn't connect them. Nothing. All it would take would be a few lines of dialogue from Dooku or Sidious that they had tricked or brainwashed Dyas in to ordering the army, and then they killed him. The resolution of this subplot would have been that simple. But Lucas decided to forget about it just like he made the Jedi forget that there is an obvious conspiracy regarding the clones and had them play right in to its hands.