The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by ares834
And that's what he inherited from his father,

How is this possible when the father was a literal non-factor in his son's development?

Another point: Yoda and Obi Wan point out that Leia is another potential hope because she is a Skywalker. Lucien's theory would suggest that her being a Skywalker is only indirectly relevant in generating a strong personality, yet by RotJ, Leia's strong personality is already well established; yet she still isn't considered a potential Jedi candidate until her bloodline is revealed. Not upbringing, not even inherited personality, as both were already evident in ANH and ESB; her Skywalker heritage was the deciding factor unto itself.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
How is this possible when the father was a literal non-factor in his son's development?

That's the whole nature vs nurture argument.

Originally posted by Throwaway
So then why didn't the Jedi recruit Han Solo? Or Mon Mothma? Or the various bothans who died to bring her information?

Eh?

It's because they don't have the correct personality (whatever that may be).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's correct. But I could certainly see why one would believe it while watching strictly the OT.

Originally posted by ares834
That's the whole nature vs nurture argument/

But that's where The Canadian's argument implodes. For this to be relevant, Luke's personality must be a direct product of his father. For that to be the case, Anakin would need to have been a presence in Luke's life so as to influence the development of that character, that personality.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But that's where The Canadian's argument implodes. For this to be relevant, Luke's personality must be a direct product of his father. For that to be the case, Anakin would need to have been a presence in Luke's life so as to influence the development of that character, that personality.

Unless, of course, a person's personality is highly dependent on inherited genes.

^that wouldn't explain why Leia, whose personality was already well established by ANH and ESB, was not considered a potential candidate for Jedi until it is revealed that she is a Skywalker, even though her inherited personality would already be evidence unto itself. There's obviously something here beyond psychological traits.

Originally posted by Throwaway
^that wouldn't explain why Leia, whose personality was already well established by ANH and ESB, was not considered a potential candidate for Jedi until it is revealed that she is a Skywalker, even though her inherited personality would already be evidence unto itself. There's obviously something here beyond psychological traits.

Wut?

Why wasn't she a potential candidate at the beginning? Just because no one was training her or what?

Originally posted by ares834
Lucien, are you suggesting that the OT presents a hereditary connection between force users yet not necessary a biological/genetic one?

In other words, Luke, being the son of Anakin, shows the proper characteristics to make a powerful Jedi (whatever these characteristics may be). Thus, the force runs strong in him because his personality is "well suited" for using the force. And that's what he inherited from his father, a strong personality that gives him great control over the force not a bunch of micro-organisms living in his blood-stream.

Every time I b*tch about the magic "powers" of the EU, I always reference what it used to be like in the OT, and this is what I mean. The Force wasn't just some power you unlocked and threw around, it was a an aspect of your personality. The possibility to feel the Force ran in everyone, but only those who could work their minds and emotions the right way could understand and use the Force--Han wasn't able, but the tendency to see the world the right way ran in the Skywalker family. And like I said before, you can argue the case of personality derived from DNA all day. I don't care about that, that's not the point of the movie. The point is the characters and their characteristics.

I get what you mean, Temp, about the inheritance aspect. But it's not an in inheritance of genes I see, it's one of personal mental attributes. And it's like Lucas couldn't see it that way and later just made it about how special your chromosomes were, and how lucky your selective breeding program of immaculate conception was. TPM and the midichlorians totally eliminated the value of personal strength and the feeling that the Force was for everyone and everything, and instead beat us over the head about how privileged and special a select few lotto winners were.

And Obi-Wan didn't seek Luke out. He rescued Luke from being an idiot and enlisted him once he himself had been enlisted. Luke happened by.

Originally posted by ares834
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's correct. But I could certainly see why one would believe it while watching strictly the OT.

Ares: No, because nobody even considered the possibility that she could be a Jedi until they learned she was Skywalker's offspring; not even Luke, who was well aware of her personality. Again, there's clearly something beyond psychological traits. And genetic inheritance is not such that you can predict greatness based on familial ties, Yoda, who had never met Leia, automatically assumed she would be "another" hope.

There's also occam's razor; arguing that "the Force is strong in your family" really means "your family members have a great personality" is a rather convoluted theory that we don't need.

It seems that Lucien's theory about how the OT portrays Force powers has no evidence unto itself, or advantages over the far simpler, more straightforward notion that Yoda is not being a sophistic ass when he says "the Force is strong in your family". Occam's razor...

Originally posted by Throwaway
There's also occam's razor; arguing that "the Force is strong in your family" really means "your family members have a great personality" is a rather convoluted theory that we don't need.

My issue with this interpretation is that it isn't the straightforward one.

And we're back to where we began: I understand disliking TPM for introducing the midi-chlorian and explicitly confirming the already implicit genetic component of the Force, preventing people from working around it.

But the fact is that all this stuff does indeed originate with the OT. His article is factually wrong.

I didn't even read most of the article. My contention lies with the Midi-DNA=Force.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You honestly think that's convoluted? It's a movie about magic, not a theory test.

This is textbook circular logic, lol...

You've basically been reduced to supporting your interpretation of the OT by giving it the benefit of the doubt in every possible manner. We know that Leia's already evident personality in ANH and ESB never made her a candidate for Jedi, but her blood, which, by your theory, should only be a means to an end, unto itself makes Yoda, who has never before met Leia, believe her to be another hope.

Furthermore, if it's a matter of personality, how the f*ck is Palpatine strong in the Force? If this personality need not be positive, but merely strong, why isn't Han Solo throwing around starships? Do you not think Tarkin would find interest in choking Rebel officers through cameras?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I didn't even read most of the article. My contention lies with the Midi-DNA=Force.

The article itself is fine and he raises some interesting points.

I understand that putting the Force under a microscope (zing!) with the midi-chlorian dilutes its mystique. I, in fact, share many of your beliefs over the depiction of the Force from the films to the EU and the proverbial magic lost in transit.

But to claim that this stuff originated with TPM is at best factually wrong and at worst an outright lie. (I won't presume that the article's author was being deliberately deceitful.)

Between Yoda and Luke's lines in ROTJ and Lucas's early notes, we know a genetic, biological component was always inherent in the Force even in the OT. It's a fact, incontrovertible, not open for debate.

But I understand how the word midi-chlorian precludes those among us who prefer a mystical context for the Force from working around it.

Midichlorians don't entirely strip the mysticism of the Force, anyway. Qui Gon Jinn suggests that they "talk to us", which hardly sounds scientific to me. Sort of like how many ancients believed the Gods spoke through nature, insects and animals.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The article itself is fine and he raises some interesting points.

I understand that putting the Force under a microscope (zing!) with the midi-chlorian dilutes its mystique. I, in fact, share many of your beliefs over the depiction of the Force from the films to the EU and the proverbial magic lost in transit.

But to claim that this stuff originated with TPM is at best factually wrong and at worst an outright lie. (I won't presume that the article's author was being deliberately deceitful.)

Between Yoda and Luke's lines in ROTJ and Lucas's early notes, we know a genetic, biological component was always inherent in the Force even in the OT. It's a fact, incontrovertible, not open for debate.

But I understand how the word midi-chlorian precludes those among us who prefer a mystical context for the Force from working around it.

Originally posted by Throwaway
This is textbook circular logic, lol...

You've basically been reduced to supporting your interpretation of the OT by giving it the benefit of the doubt in every possible manner. We know that Leia's already evident personality in ANH and ESB never made her a candidate for Jedi, but her blood, which, by your theory, should only be a means to an end, unto itself makes Yoda, who has never before met Leia, believe her to be another hope.

Furthermore, if it's a matter of personality, how the f*ck is Palpatine strong in the Force? If this personality need not be positive, but merely strong, why isn't Han Solo throwing around starships? Do you not think Tarkin would find interest in choking Rebel officers through cameras?

But even with her as a Skywalker, the nature of the Force in the OT doesn't change. I always focused more on the Luke-Vader relationship. Luke realizing he's more like his father and his struggle against becoming so is kind of the heart of his journey. Interweaving the Force as a vessel of destiny from father to son was great.

EDIT: It's a movie about magic and fantasy, man. Don't get so bogged down in the logic that the emotional journey takes a back seat.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah the inheritance aspect originated with the OT, no denying that. But like Ares summarized and I extrapolated, it was an inheritance of the soul. TPM made it an inheritance of chemistry. Sucked all the fun and joy right out of the Force that one did.

Hey I never said the OT was perfect. Leia has been the center of my main gripes about it. She underreacted to Alderaan, and her reveal as Luke's sister was just bizarre. Lucas obviously pulled it out of his ass just so his third movie could have another reveal. The frequent kissing and attraction between the siblings is retroactively unsettling.

But even with her as a Skywalker, the nature of the Force in the OT doesn't change. I always focused more on the Luke-Vader relationship. Luke realizing he's more like his father and his struggle against becoming so is kind of the heart of his journey. Interweaving the Force as a vessel of destiny from father to son was great.

Would it be a dick move for me to say "concession accepted"?

Yes, yes it would.

And that alone is reason to do it.

Originally posted by Throwaway
Would it be a dick move for me to say "concession accepted"?