Originally posted by Nephthys
Y'know, I've never quite understood why rape is such a special kind of evil (tvtropes). Why do I get so much more angry about it than murder? Surely murder is the much more destructive crime. You can get better from rape. You can deal with it, y'know, in your head. You can't come back from dead.
But being dead is the end of suffering in a sense. It's tragic, but unless it's especially heinous, it's not as vile. Holding someone down and raping them, knowing full well that you are getting off at their expense and relishing in their misery, and then leaving them alive to deal with the physical and psychological trauma which ensues, is a more active, prolonged cruelty.
Originally posted by Nephthys
But the death causes a ton of grief to your family and loved ones. They will never be able to see you again. And the potential that your life represents has been lost forever. And that's something that never goes away.
But the person who is dead presumably isn't suffering anymore, whether you buy into cessation of existence or heaven or Valhalla or whatever. Morality in some cases is decided by the relative suffering of the individual. If you are slain with minimal suffering and pain, it is less evil to some people than being forced to deal with the consequences of trauma. In any case, torture is more evil than murder, and rape is a form of torture (in most cases).
That's if you judge it purely form the perspective of the direct victim. Murder by its nature alone doesn't really inflict harm on the direct victim*, but it inflicts harm on those that care about him. If I murder X, and Y cares about X, then Y is the true victim of the crime.
*I like the way Epicurus puts it. When we are alive, death is not something we experience, and when we are dead, we no longer experience anything. Therefore death is something we never experience.
Edit - posted before the last two responses.
It's the psychological toll it takes on the victim, not the physical toll--though that can be severe enough as well. Many people could face death when the moment arrived, but very few sane people could face being raped and still feel like themselves afterward. Murder is destructive more to the victim's family/friends than the victim themselves. Rape is almost exclusively felt and suffered by the victim. It has the added bonus of isolating the victim.
There's a similar problem facing combat vets with PTSD. Physical wounds and amputations, while certainly traumatic and life-changing, don't necessarily alter the sufferer's personality in any severe way. And physical wounds are visible and easily identifiable--like death. Psychological scarring is hidden and often repressed by the victim; treatment is difficult when the syndrome is hard to sense, much less quantify. Ditto for rape.
This is all hard to compare, but at least try to compare the following as an example:
1. The impact being raped has on the person that gets raped.
2. The impact the death of a child has on their mother.
I'm leaning towards 2 > 1. But as Nephthys was saying I feel more strongly affected when hearing about cases of rape (women specifically) than I do murder.
I'm thinking it ultimately boils down to sexism.
Well personally I was thinking about it and I think that its just that murder is more normalised and deemed 'cleaner' than rape. As children we fight with toy swords and pretend we're knights slaying the evil whatever. As teenagers we play games about killing bad guys, or we watch movies or read books about it. In a way killing is almost glorified. Its just not as disgusting to our sensibilities as it really kind of should be.
But no-one plays at rape. No-one tells stories about the glorious rape after the great battle. It is just wrong, all the time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well personally I was thinking about it and I think that its just that murder is more normalised and deemed 'cleaner' than rape. As children we fight with toy swords and pretend we're knights slaying the evil whatever. As teenagers we play games about killing bad guys, or we watch movies or read books about it. In a way killing is almost glorified. Its just not as disgusting to our sensibilities as it really kind of should be.But no-one plays at rape. No-one tells stories about the glorious rape after the great battle. It is just wrong, all the time.
Tell that to the Dothraki.
Originally posted by NephthysI'd put it down somewhat to the fact that death is less relatable. We understand it, but its sensation and finality is lost on the living. Its easier to look past it or ignore so long as its not happening right freaking now. Rape and torture involve pain, disfigurement, terror, shame, etc. We understand those and can feel them every day (hopefully not, though). So when it comes to finding something uncomfortable and distasteful, we tend to feel more emphatic when it's the sensations we've had experience with. Rape and torture hit closer to home, on a biological level.
Well personally I was thinking about it and I think that its just that murder is more normalised and deemed 'cleaner' than rape. As children we fight with toy swords and pretend we're knights slaying the evil whatever. As teenagers we play games about killing bad guys, or we watch movies or read books about it. In a way killing is almost glorified. Its just not as disgusting to our sensibilities as it really kind of should be.But no-one plays at rape. No-one tells stories about the glorious rape after the great battle. It is just wrong, all the time.
That's not to dismiss death's effect, but again, the death of another is a shared experience--just look at the multitude of rituals and beliefs surrounding it. Rape is personal and psychologically lonely. Far less options for post-ex-facto comfort. Hence its taboo in our collective consciousness.
Originally posted by Nephthys
But the death causes a ton of grief to your family and loved ones. They will never be able to see you again. And the potential that your life represents has been lost forever. And that's something that never goes away.
In the initial point you made, you stated that people "can get over" rape. This logic should also be applied to the family members who can "get over" your death.
When it comes to death versus rapes, which isn't really a "competition", I think murder is somewhat comparable. Death, generally speaking, has a wider scope. For example, no one is going to sit there and compare rape to dying of old age.
Originally posted by Stealth MooseYour post hinges on the assumption that whatever occurs or does not occur after death is preferable to the trauma of being raped.
But being dead is the end of suffering in a sense. It's tragic, but unless it's especially heinous, it's not as vile. Holding someone down and raping them, knowing full well that you are getting off at their expense and relishing in their misery, and then leaving them alive to deal with the physical and psychological trauma which ensues, is a more active, prolonged cruelty.
Prove this.