The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Dark Rendezvous is really good. Not a particularly "epic" story in that it doesn't deal with blatant galactic stakes and doesn't see fleetwide space battles. But it's an excellent character study for Yoda and Dooku, who's as complex here as was hinted at in AOTC. Ventress is also written exceptionally well, as is Sidious/Palpatine when he appears. The original characters (Scout & the droids Fidelus and Solis) are also really engaging. Sharp prose, too. All the depth of Stover without being as cumbersome.

NemeBro
I might read it soon. Been looking for more trashy SF to read and don't feel like going back to Warhammer 40,000 just yet.

How is Plagueis?

Plagueis is good but highly overrated; I suspect much of its nigh-universal acclaim owes more to the appeal of Palpatine than it does its own merits. It suffers from two crippling issues: neither Palpatine nor Plagueis are remotely compelling protagonists (in that both, especially Sidious, are near-impossible to relate to) and the book reads as more of a chronology than a self-contained narrative.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
I guess I'll need to read it again (it and Cloak of Deception), because I came away from it feeling ambivalent. I was also iirc either in middle school or a freshman at the time though, so.

Deception is a pretty compelling political thriller even by non-SW standards, it's up there with The Unifying Force as Luceno's best work imo.

Now that you're older and more savvy in the ways of politics, you might like it more.

Originally posted by NemeBro
DarthAnt needs to fight me irl right now.

Let's cut the bullshit David; you and I both know what this is about.

Spoiler:
Where did the ****ing U go?

To be fair, Beefy, you did come off as unnecessarily hostile. And not in a snarky way, but in a manner befitting a perennially grumpy German.

Neme sent me a private message saying he hates Nephthys.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
To be fair, Beefy, you did come off as unnecessarily hostile. And not in a snarky way, but in a manner befitting a perennially grumpy German.

You should probably train him to come up with better comebacks, by the way. His material never changes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Neme sent me a private message saying he hates Nephthys.

Also, real question, do you legitimately view me as an obstacle between you and Nephthys? I'm seriously not sure anymore.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Neme sent me a private message saying he hates Nephthys.

Weird. Me and Neme are PMing each other about anime we like. And also well, stuff I probably shouldn't talk about.... 😍

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dark Rendezvous is really good. Not a particularly "epic" story in that it doesn't deal with blatant galactic stakes and doesn't see fleetwide space battles. But it's an excellent character study for Yoda and Dooku, who's as complex here as was hinted at in AOTC. Ventress is also written exceptionally well, as is Sidious/Palpatine when he appears. The original characters (Scout & the droids Fidelus and Solis) are also really engaging. Sharp prose, too. All the depth of Stover without being as cumbersome.

To be honest I was sold at "Dooku".

Any expansion of the count's character is something I would probably enjoy.

Plagueis is good but highly overrated; I suspect much of its nigh-universal acclaim owes more to the appeal of Palpatine than it does its own merits. It suffers from two crippling issues: neither Palpatine nor Plagueis are remotely compelling protagonists (in that both, especially Sidious, are near-impossible to relate to) and the book reads as more of a chronology than a self-contained narrative.

A protagonist doesn't need to be relatable to be a good protagonist IMO.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Weird. Me and Neme are PMing each other about anime we like. And also well, stuff I probably shouldn't talk about.... 😍

All Neme does it talk shit behind your back, Neph. He's a total @55h0le.

I believe the most effective protagonists are ones with whom you can sympathize or empathize to a major degree if not on every absolute level. (In fact, I'm not sure of a single example where this isn't the case.) Dooku in DR is portrayed as very much conflicted about his allegiance and his methods, but not to any degree that it whitewashes his crimes. Sidious, in contrast, is an unrepentant sociopath and malignant narcissist and so it's not as easy to follow his perspective. The few times Luceno tries to soften him rings hollow. The very traits that make him such a formidable and entertaining villain are the things that make him a poor choice as a central character IMO.

Silence Tempest, I am about to achieve victory over Nemebro for talking about Nephthys behind his back.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I believe the most effective protagonists are ones with whom you can sympathize or empathize to a major degree if not on every absolute level. (In fact, I'm not sure of a single example where this isn't the case.) Dooku in DR is portrayed as very much conflicted about his allegiance and his methods, but not to any degree that it whitewashes his crimes. Sidious, in contrast, is an unrepentant sociopath and malignant narcissist and so it's not as easy to follow his perspective. The few times Luceno tries to soften him rings hollow. The very traits that make him such a formidable and entertaining villain are the things that make him a poor choice as a central character IMO.

When did he ever try to soften him?

Originally posted by carthage
When did he ever try to soften him?

He was conflicted over the looming assassination of his political mentor, Vidar Kim, and it was suggested that there existed a "filial attachment" to Maul. To say nothing of his anger and shock at killing his family at Plagueis's instigation.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
All Neme does it talk shit behind your back, Neph. He's a total @55h0le.

I'm gonna see how this plays out......

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He was conflicted over the looming assassination of his political mentor, Vidar Kim, and it was suggested that there existed a "filial attachment" to Maul. To say nothing of his anger and shock at killing his family at Plagueis's instigation.

He was only attached insofar as he had trained him and saw him as a mere tool. When he was killing Hego in the last part of the book, he gloats over how training him was his sole accomplishment when he deceived Hego into thinking it was his idea. I don't recall him feeling remorse/shock for killing his family though, I remember he actually snarled and enjoyed it after his conversation with Cosinga.

Originally posted by Nephthys

I'm gonna see how this plays out......

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
See! I ****ing told you he was a dweeb! I would never do that to you!
If you love me, your days will be filled with back massages and blow jobs.

I'm not buying it just yet. You could have faked that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not buying it just yet. You could have faked that.

Originally posted by carthage
He was only attached insofar as he had trained him and saw him as a mere tool. When he was killing Hego in the last part of the book, he gloats over how training him was his sole accomplishment when he deceived Hego into thinking it was his idea. I don't recall him feeling remorse/shock for killing his family though, I remember he actually snarled and enjoyed it after his conversation with Cosinga.

Well that's obviously how Sidious really views Maul canonically but Luceno did indeed allude to a genuine bond, however twisted, between them. When he rants to Plagueis at the end, he expresses anger at being manipulated into killing his family.