Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, it's over now.Wanna grab a beer? Or talk about creationism?
Yahwe Yes!!!
That is the next thing to discuss- either that or exactly how much knightfa11 sux.
Knightfa11-the world is older than 6000 years old. Prove it isn't. 😄 (Seriously though, your views in this suck. You are less informed than a 1st century Australian. You are just plain wrong on every aspect of this issue.)
Thought you should know.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Yahwe Yes!!!
That is the next thing to discuss- either that or exactly how much knightfa11 sux.Knightfa11-the world is older than 6000 years old. Prove it isn't. 😄 (Seriously though, your views in this suck. You are less informed than a 1st century Australian. You are just plain wrong on every aspect of this issue.)
Thought you should know.
easy... you just made the claim... as gideon would say(and i can't believe i'm repeating, just kill me now!) : burden of proof falls on you to prove that it is older than 6000 years old.
What i tried to claim in the entire creationism issue is that there is not nearly enough evidence to support evolution as correct, with all other theories thrown to the wayside.. That was my side of it. You, nor anyone else have delivered nearly enough evidence to prove it.
(claim is yours that evolution is the only correct possibility....)
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Yahwe Yes!!!
That is the next thing to discuss- either that or exactly how much knightfa11 sux.Knightfa11-the world is older than 6000 years old. Prove it isn't. 😄 (Seriously though, your views in this suck. You are less informed than a 1st century Australian. You are just plain wrong on every aspect of this issue.)
Thought you should know.
I prefer grabbing a beer. You're not going to convince a creationism junkie that the world was not spontaneously created by a big, invisible bearded man.
Oh, well. I'm -this- close to saying percisely what I think of religion in a long, big, obnoxious rant that will no doubt get many "YOU'RE A ****ING IDIOT!!!" cries, but let me put it one sentence- it's basically leading a life the way a random book tells you to do.
Now, that doesn't sound so bad on paper. Until you realize what those religious nutjobs do because it was written on a piece of paper by a mortal, fallible human being who was older and more primitive than we are.
Must... not... rant... must... not... rant...
Edit: Sorry, Truejedi, but science and logic (the bane of religion) do not defintiively state how old is the world. The bible, however, does. The bible also says that it was sponteously formed by a big, invisible man. Are you going to believe in it because a book says so? No single piece of evidence within the realm of existence suggests that creationism is the correct practice.
On the contrary, there is scientific evidence, logic, experimentation and extensive research done in order to substantiate the point of 'evolution'. That requires a bit more than an expansive imagination and a compulsive desire to control people and keep them in line, which is what whoever wrote the bible had in mind.
I know my stuff I've argued this before, the only reason i would chose to argue it now is if I cared about your religious standings or what your afterlife will consist of according to my religion, which I don't. In other words, I don't give a rats ass about what you think and I will see you in hell. 🙂
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I prefer grabbing a beer. You're not going to convince a creationism junkie that the world was not spontaneously created by a big, invisible bearded man.Oh, well. I'm -this- close to saying percisely what I think of religion in a long, big, obnoxious rant that will no doubt get many "YOU'RE A ****ING IDIOT!!!" cries, but let me put it one sentence- it's basically leading a life the way a random book tells you to do.
Now, that doesn't sound so bad on paper. Until you realize what those religious nutjobs do because it was written on a piece of paper by a mortal, fallible human being who was older and more primitive than we are.
Must... not... rant... must... not... rant...
Edit: Sorry, Truejedi, but science and logic (the bane of religion) do not defintiively state how old is the world. The bible, however, does. The bible also says that it was sponteously formed by a big, invisible man. Are you going to believe in it because a book says so? No single piece of evidence within the realm of existence suggests that creationism is the correct practice.
On the contrary, there is scientific evidence, logic, experimentation and extensive research done in order to substantiate the point of 'evolution'. That requires a bit more than an expansive imagination and a compulsive desire to control people and keep them in line, which is what whoever wrote the bible had in mind.
Who was talking about the Bible Crimzon? you need to learn to expand your horizons a little. There are many theories regarding the origin of the earth that have nothing to do with that book.
My point was not that creationism is just as described in the christian bible. My point is that there is not enough evidence to subscribe completely to the theory of evolution without researching other paths as well.
I don't understand why you keep confusing the word "creationist" with "religious." there is a difference.
If you see me in hell, does it not imply that ended up in hell, too? I wonder why. It may have to do with that little thing about attempting to force your narrow view of the world upon unwilling others.
Another one of the reasons why religion was created (you'll notice almost all of them are based on selfishness and self-glorification): A fear of death. By attempting to rationalize what happens after death (the two possible options: heaven or hell), humans can override their fear of the unknown death. Furthermore, since apparently I'm going to hell because I think religion is stupid, it creates an ability for these big people in the robes to frighten people into obeying the rules and principles laid out by the fallible little book called the bible. Hey, if you don't follow 'em, you'll burn in hell for an eternity!
That being said, though, I don't have a problem with people believing in god or taking up some of the less 'absolute' morals values taught by the bible. It can be seen as a work of philosophy rather than a 'rulebook'. What I do have a problem is when people blindly follow stupid, primitive traditions that severely restricts potential innovation, and can result in destruction, discrimination, and bigotry.
God is actually the leading cause of death. Or, at least, his followers are. Think about it: The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Iran-Iraq War (different forms of muslims), 9/11, the Israeli-Arab conflict... need I go on? Do you honestly think god- supposedly a being that holds life as sacred and loves every human- would let people burn, massacre, and murder others in his name, because of a varying view of the world? Why would a non-selfish, truly omnipotent god require worship, which seems like a very mortal thing to do? Especially when that worship leads to the death of MILLIONS of people? Why the hell is our world filled with corruption, racism, genocide, war, murder, and religious conflicts when a god is supposedly watching over us? Does he not give he a damn?
I dare you to answer any of these questions suitably.
And, TJ, I wasn't necessarily accusing you of bible-worship or religion (I presumed you were religious, though). Taken from dictionary.com, creationism is defined as:
"the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed."
The Creator is an omnipotent, all-powerful entity. Basically god. If you believe in creationism, you believe in god. That already makes you religious. And the idea of creationism originally stemmed from the bible and other religious works which can easily interpreted as the ramblings of fallible men. So, yes, if you're a 'creationist', you're religious, because you believe a god-like entity sponteously created us all.
Though, my argument was far more directed at Knightfall than at you, honestly. He's the fanatical "Teh world waz created 6000 yirs ago!11!" guy.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
If you see me in hell, does it not imply that ended up in hell, too? I wonder why. It may have to do with that little thing about attempting to force your narrow view of the world upon unwilling others.Another one of the reasons why religion was created (you'll notice almost all of them are based on selfishness and self-glorification): A fear of death. By attempting to rationalize what happens after death (the two possible options: heaven or hell), humans can override their fear of the unknown death. Furthermore, since apparently I'm going to hell because I think religion is stupid, it creates an ability for these big people in the robes to frighten people into obeying the rules and principles laid out by the fallible little book called the bible. Hey, if you don't follow 'em, you'll burn in hell for an eternity!
That being said, though, I don't have a problem with people believing in god or taking up some of the less 'absolute' morals values taught by the bible. It can be seen as a work of philosophy rather than a 'rulebook'. What I do have a problem is when people blindly follow stupid, primitive traditions that severely restricts potential innovation, and can result in destruction, discrimination, and bigotry.
God is actually the leading cause of death. Or, at least, his followers are. Think about it: The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Iran-Iraq War (different forms of muslims), 9/11, the Israeli-Arab conflict... need I go on? Do you honestly think god- supposedly a being that holds life as sacred and loves every human- would let people burn, massacre, and murder others in his name, because of a varying view of the world? Why would a non-selfish, truly omnipotent god require worship, which seems like a very mortal thing to do? Especially when that worship leads to the death of MILLIONS of people? Why the hell is our world filled with corruption, racism, genocide, war, murder, and religious conflicts when a god is supposedly watching over us? Does he not give he a damn?
I dare you to answer any of these questions suitably.
And, TJ, I wasn't necessarily accusing you of bible-worship or religion (I presumed you were religious, though). Taken from dictionary.com, creationism is defined as:
"the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed."
The Creator is an omnipotent, all-powerful entity. Basically god. If you believe in creationism, you believe in god. That already makes you religious. And the idea of creationism originally stemmed from the bible and other religious works which can easily interpreted as the ramblings of fallible men. So, yes, if you're a 'creationist', you're religious, because you believe a god-like entity sponteously created us all.
Though, my argument was far more directed at Knightfall than at you, honestly. He's the fanatical "Teh world waz created 6000 yirs ago!11!" guy.
actually: in answer to your post above on the depravity of mankind, if you are nearly as knowledgeable of the different religious sources as you make yourself out to be: you already know the answer to that one. Many religions believe that man is by nature a sinner. Without belief and worshipping a god, they will always degenerate into pointless wars and genocides (or say... i dunno, killing their unborn....)
you want more detail, you should look it up, but you are approaching this as though you already know?
Belief in a higher power is NOT Adherence to a religion. That is a ridiculous presumption. From the Christian bible, (which seems to be the only religious text you want to reference,)
Satan believes in God. Is Satan religious? hardly.
belief in something based on a disbelief in something else is hardly adherence to religion. Besides which: the entire point i made was: Evolution is incorrect. If you can come up with a third option, that isn't evolution, and isn't creationism, go for it: I'll listen.
Originally posted by Master CrimzonI'm not attempting to force my view on anyone. IN fact, you brought it up I believe, with the attempt to start an argument. If I were to partake in this debate, I would be "forcing my view" upon you, and instantly I am made the bad guy.
If you see me in hell, does it not imply that ended up in hell, too? I wonder why. It may have to do with that little thing about attempting to force your narrow view of the world upon unwilling others.
Maybe the hypothesis of evolution is based on a fear of death? Maybe it is based upon scientists who want everyone to have the same afterlife regardless of their actions.
Another one of the reasons why religion was created (you'll notice almost all of them are based on selfishness and self-glorification): A fear of death.
By attempting to rationalize what happens after death (the two possible options: heaven or hell), humans can override their fear of the unknown death.perhaps, but this assumes that the religion is false.
Furthermore, since apparently I'm going to hell because I think religion is stupid, it creates an ability for these big people in the robes to frighten people into obeying the rules and principles laid out by the fallible little book called the bible.Indeed. You can count me out of that kind of thing. As your beliefs are unique, so are my own. I believe in Jesus, but not in religion, if you can fathom such a thing. Catholicism is a RELIGION created by SOCIETY to control people.
Hey, if you don't follow 'em, you'll burn in hell for an eternity!You have it wrong. If you don't accept Jesus, you burn in hell. Most evangelical Christians don't follow someone who controls them. Hell, if my pastor wore robes and started telling me what to do it'd be "so long and farewell" to him.
Sure. But it all depends on what those morals are. Modern day Christians follow the new testament and then pick through the old testament, the one that teaches things like "animal sacrifice" as they believe that god sent his son so we don't have to follow many of the older rules.
That being said, though, I don't have a problem with people believing in god or taking up some of the less 'absolute' morals values taught by the bible.
It can be seen as a work of philosophy rather than a 'rulebook'.that is where you are wrong. There are principals that must be followed to an absolute for evident reasons, such as their detrimental effects on society and that if you don't draw a line in the sand and live with some measure of self controll, what is the point? read the ten commandments, and the only one you can really have any sort of problem with, even from a secular standpoint, are the first few that refer to god and other gods.
What I do have a problem is when people blindly follow stupid, primitive traditions that severely restricts potential innovation, and can result in destruction, discrimination, and bigotry.
Muslims.
God is actually the leading cause of death. Or, at least, his followers are. Think about it: The Crusades,
the Inquisition,radical catholic people who believed that the church and god were just a method to attain earthly power.
the Holocaust,I don't get this one. While hitler may have said he was a christian, his motives were genetic perfection.
the Iran-Iraq War (different forms of muslims), 9/11, the Israeli-Arab conflict...all muslim
need I go on? Do you honestly think god- supposedly a being that holds life as sacred and loves every human- would let people burn, massacre, and murder others in his name, because of a varying view of the world?really what it is is best described by what you said
Or, at least, his followers are.Its not god, its his followers. would you like god more if he came down and forced homosexuals to be straight, forced everyone to love each other, stopped all wars, and made everyone follow in his will? No, because it would be a dictatorship.
a love that's forced is no love at all
Why would a non-selfish, truly omnipotent god require worship, which seems like a very mortal thing to do? Especially when that worship leads to the death of MILLIONS of people?Once again, god doesn't require worship, but he wants it, and he doesn't want anyone to die, but his followers took things too far.
Why the hell is our world filled with corruption, racism, genocide, war, murder, and religious conflicts when a god is supposedly watching over us? Does he not give he a damn?no, because we are given a choice. And our fathers were given a choice. If adam and eve hadn't sinned (yes i know) then none of this would have happened, but we are in darkness, and the source of our problems is from men, not god. If god came down and made everyone be perfect and forced everyone to be good, we would be royaly and absolutely SCREWED.
I dare you to answer any of these questions suitably.
I'm sorry. Go back and read my argument you little ****. I have far more proof and intelligent debate then you could ever provide. Instead you throw insults and dismiss my views before you even start a rebuttal. I also believe you "copped out" of that debate, if you were even in it. The problem with you people is you don't know how to debate. The instant you feel threatened by someone's argument, you throw insults, and this is not the way to logically or intelligently present yourself in a debate.
And, TJ, I wasn't necessarily accusing you of bible-worship or religion (I presumed you were religious, though). Taken from dictionary.com, creationism is defined as:"the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed."
The Creator is an omnipotent, all-powerful entity. Basically god. If you believe in creationism, you believe in god. That already makes you religious. And the idea of creationism originally stemmed from the bible and other religious works which can easily interpreted as the ramblings of fallible men. So, yes, if you're a 'creationist', you're religious, because you believe a god-like entity sponteously created us all.
Though, my argument was far more directed at Knightfall than at you, honestly. He's the fanatical "Teh world waz created 6000 yirs ago!11!" guy.
If you want to start an insult fight, I'm more than ready, insolent bastard, and if you want to have an intelligent debate, I believe I will take part in that as well.
I am not being "fanatical" or do i have the spelling or 1337speak required for your parody of my voice to work. I presented my facts, why I believe what I do, and came out with viable points that were undebatable. Thankyou, but you have now been dismissed as an idiot. Welcome to my ignore list.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I'm not attempting to force my view on anyone. IN fact, you brought it up I believe, with the attempt to start an argument. If I were to partake in this debate, I would be "forcing my view" upon you, and instantly I am made the bad guy.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Maybe the hypothesis of evolution is based on a fear of death? Maybe it is based upon scientists who want everyone to have the same afterlife regardless of their actions.
Evolution does not imply any afterlife or lack thereof- it is based in empirical evidence, not in conjecture about what happens to consciousness after death. The afterlife is not a scientific issue- because it can't be tested or verified empirically- there is no substantiating proof to suggest an afterlife at all. It is, scientifically speaking, both irrelevant and fictional.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
perhaps, but this assumes that the religion is false.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Indeed. You can count me out of that kind of thing. As your beliefs are unique, so are my own. I believe in Jesus, but not in religion, if you can fathom such a thing. Catholicism is a RELIGION created by SOCIETY to control people. You have it wrong. If you don't accept Jesus, you burn in hell. Most evangelical Christians don't follow someone who controls them. Hell, if my pastor wore robes and started telling me what to do it'd be "so long and farewell" to him.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Sure. But it all depends on what those morals are. Modern day Christians follow the new testament and then pick through the old testament, the one that teaches things like "animal sacrifice" as they believe that god sent his son so we don't have to follow many of the older rules.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
that is where you are wrong. There are principals that must be followed to an absolute for evident reasons, such as their detrimental effects on society and that if you don't draw a line in the sand and live with some measure of self controll, what is the point?
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
read the ten commandments, and the only one you can really have any sort of problem with, even from a secular standpoint, are the first few that refer to god and other gods.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Muslims. radical catholic people who believed that the church and god were just a method to attain earthly power.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I don't get this one. While hitler may have said he was a christian, his motives were genetic perfection.
He was pretty definitely a Christian.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
all muslim really what it is is best described by what you said Its not god, its his followers. would you like god more if he came down and forced homosexuals to be straight, forced everyone to love each other, stopped all wars, and made everyone follow in his will? No, because it would be a dictatorship.
As for the other point, about the dictatorship- it would be better to have a dictatorship for 70-80 years rather than live in a manner (apparently) against God's will and get damned to hell for all eternity. Being Damned (technical term-I'm note even swearing) for eternity due to a finite amount of sins is automatically and inherently unfair.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Once again, god doesn't require worship, but he wants it, and he doesn't want anyone to die, but his followers took things too far. no, because we are given a choice.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
And our fathers were given a choice. If adam and eve hadn't sinned (yes i know) then none of this would have happened, but we are in darkness, and the source of our problems is from men, not god. If god came down and made everyone be perfect and forced everyone to be good, we would be royaly and absolutely SCREWED.Um, that didn't happen? Just so you know (again) that has widely been agreed to be an allegory or metaphor. There weren't literally two people made from dust. Also, why the hell am I being punished for something some tool named Adam did 6000 years ago? (another logical absurdity)
[QUOTE=11270856]Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
[B]
I'm sorry. Go back and read my argument you little ****. I have far more proof and intelligent debate then you could ever provide. Instead you throw insults and dismiss my views before you even start a rebuttal. I also believe you "copped out" of that debate, if you were even in it. The problem with you people is you don't know how to debate. The instant you feel threatened by someone's argument, you throw insults, and this is not the way to logically or intelligently present yourself in a debate.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
If you want to start an insult fight, I'm more than ready, insolent bastard, and if you want to have an intelligent debate, I believe I will take part in that as well.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I am not being "fanatical" or do i have the spelling or 1337speak required for your parody of my voice to work. I presented my facts, why I believe what I do, and came out with viable points that were undebatable. Thank you, but you have now been dismissed as an idiot. Welcome to my ignore list.
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Since when?When you generalize, you're argument loses all credibility.
Religion is inherently illogical- at least, faith, the cornerstone of religion is. Their starting premise is flawed, any logical deductions they make from then are are therefore incorrect.
Logic is in itself, illogical. =\
The universe is inherently self-contradicting and there are aspects of it that seem to be not scientifically possible, thus, unexplainable.
However to state that science is the "bane" of religion is an all-encompassing statement that is wrong, considering I am of a Christian sect that believes the Earth is much, much older than 6000 years and also agrees with Evolution, to a point.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis2. I insulted you because you have proved reluctant to debate with me in the past, in my experience people are more likely to respond if you call them an idiot, or question their worldview- Which you are, and is flawed, respectively.
[/B]
thats the problem with this whole stupid website. Right there. No one on this website actually has ANY idea how to debate.
1. An insult is not a comeback. Many don't understand that. Its truly not.
2. Debating "Logic" when it comes to fiction is a fallacy in and of itself.
There is no logical way to describe by feats, or by written accolades, or by actual fights (rematches do not always produce the same winner) who is going to actually win a fight. Not one fight in all of the star wars universe can be proven. Not one. They are hypothetical fiction.
Red, you are one of the few that i actually respect on this website. For you to make that statement above makes it pretty clear to me that this website is a waste of time. I think i've outgrown the demographic that used to be on this site. Teenage trolling, the insults, the absolute degredation of someone based on their interpretation of a fictional novel is not only ridiculous, its a waste of time. Too many arguments recently have ended with everyone agreeing to disagree anyway. I am yet to see one person change their mind once. Whats the point?
I guess the debate with Gideon a few weeks ago finally did it for me, coupled with realizing that EVERYONE does the pointless trolling.
To spend that many hours discussing something, only to have him back out of what he was obviously implying on a technicality was ridiculous. If winning a fictional argument is that important to someone: Have at it.
I'm finished.
Originally posted by truejediYou're looking into a career in politics aren't you?
thats the problem with this whole stupid website. Right there. No one on this website actually has ANY idea how to debate.1. An insult is not a comeback. Many don't understand that. Its truly not.
2. Debating "Logic" when it comes to fiction is a fallacy in and of itself.
There is no logical way to describe by feats, or by written accolades, or by actual fights (rematches do not always produce the same winner) who is going to actually win a fight. Not one fight in all of the star wars universe can be proven. Not one. They are hypothetical fiction.Red, you are one of the few that i actually respect on this website. For you to make that statement above makes it pretty clear to me that this website is a waste of time. I think i've outgrown the demographic that used to be on this site. Teenage trolling, the insults, the absolute degredation of someone based on their interpretation of a fictional novel is not only ridiculous, its a waste of time. Too many arguments recently have ended with everyone agreeing to disagree anyway. I am yet to see one person change their mind once. Whats the point?
I guess the debate with Gideon a few weeks ago finally did it for me, coupled with realizing that EVERYONE does the pointless trolling.To spend that many hours discussing something, only to have him back out of what he was obviously implying on a technicality was ridiculous. If winning a fictional argument is that important to someone: Have at it.
I'm finished.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Religion is inherently illogical- at least, faith, the cornerstone of religion is. Their starting premise is flawed, any logical deductions they make from then are are therefore incorrect.
I'm not a very religious person myself, but I would have to disagree that Religion is the bane of science and logic. That very statement is a gross generalization that lumps everyone of religious persuasion into a single group and applies a label to them. It implies that religious people are illogical and ignorant.
Would you say that to Francis S. Collins? One of the major team leaders of the Human Genome Project and also a man of strong religious persuasion. What about the fabled Issac Newton? Or say the Muslim scholars of the late Middle Ages to who we owe many of our algebraic theories to?
What of the ancient Greeks? The Greeks were a strongly religious people, but what about men like Aristotle to who we owe the basis of the scientific method.
Or the Aztecs? They gave us the idea zero, and yet the Aztecs were for the most part zealots.
Yes, we have instances of men like Galileo being forced to recant because of religion, but it would be a fallacy to generalize all people of religious persuasion as the bane of science and logic. That's the problem with blanket statements.