The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Lord Knightfa113,287 pages

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Becoming hereditary is no obstacle- these transmissions happen in the genetic code- if it grows because of a mutation, it will be passed to its offspring.

sure the code will be passed down, but if you do any study in genetics, you will notice that many flaws are not repeated for a long time, for instance, my great grandmother had an eleventh toe. It has not been evidenced in our family, even though she survived to maturity and propagated. It has to happen enough among enough of the fish or shrimp to become commonly hereditary, and once again, how do the nerves get to the brain? why is the light sensitive patch on the head? did it just start with a light sensitive tumor that grew tendrils towards the brain? no matter what you say, this is beginning to sound more and more like science fiction. [quote] A light sensitive patch was the starting premise, but lets back up some more. A tiny primordial shrimp is in competition with other shrimp. Its species is blind. The first step for our hypothetical protagonist is to develop pigment molecules. We know from our inquiries into physics that light is composed of photons. When it strikes a molecule of a colored substance it may be affected- the photon would be stopped in its tracks- releasing energy. In plants, this energy is used to fuel photosynthesis. It is not a stretch to think that our shrimp's nervous system could be able to pick up this energy released when it is struck by light and from there it is a variable that can be operated upon by natural selection. The tiny ancient lifeforms (and today's- modern microbes can be killed with UV, which is just more EM radiation) were shaped and influenced by the extreme environment they lived in, and had short lifespans. Over millions of years, the eye had time to evolve.
I find it a stretch that something that was completely blind could pick up the light and as a result, the eye was born. First of all, this would be incredibly complex for just the first shrimp to have, but for it to be reproduced until the mutation became widespread? It becomes altogether too incredible.

The great thing about evolution is that it isn't made of all or nothing chances. There hasn't been an example of irreducible complexity found yet, and I suspect there never will.
that's because no matter what is thrown at evolutionists, they can write a piece of elaborate science fiction, pin it up on the wall, and call it a theory. They then tell their students that while a law may be more proven and more factual, a theory is much more grand
Everything scholars have investigated would be beneficial in less advanced stages. Evolution breaks everything up into smaller pieces of improbability. An eye does not have to spring fully grown from the head of Zeus- it can be created through many, less improbable occurrences. There will never be a Boeing 747 spontaneously blown together by a hurricane, but a few pieces of metal could be leaning on each other, with other pieces being added all of the time. The removal of adverisity through incremental changes- THAT is the beauty of the theory of evolution.
>.> The Beoing would no more be made by pieces of metal leaning against each other than if they were thrown together in a hurricane. Lets not go to the barren desert of trying to prove creationist's analogies concerning evolution wrong. They are a little too biased for me, and anyone found quoting them as evidence for intelligent design is marked as an idiot by his scientific peers.

Not so. Every animal is undergoing this change whenever it reproduces. Evolution hasn't stopped just because humans "arrived," we can see mutations (for the better- actual, beneficial mutations) in bacteria, we can see the evidence of evolution in the diversity of life, and we can see the history of evolution- the fossil record, while inherently spotty, shows the change of animals and life throughout time.
I'm not going to argue with you here. I honestly believe that species evolve between themselves, but you are never going to create an entirely new species from this, say a feline from a canine. While you can see dogs changing colors after a long time to fit in their surroundings, you never see a dog evolving a mini-periscope on its back to see over jungle shrubs.

If you want case studies, I will post some. I can point to several examples of microbial resistance (to antibiotics) or specialization, and in my next post I can give you some history and specifics if you are still wanting information.
Yes, it would be nice to meet an evolutionist that would back up his argument, instead of arguing a lot of the fiction that scientist write to explain away certain arguments that supporters of intelligent design propose.

I didn't realize that you wanted case studies- I was arguing mechanics and application. I don't have the heart to re-write this, so I'll post them sometime tomorrow.

I like a little proof, I will post proof that clashes with evolution tomorrow as well.
Genetics has shown that the eye evolved independently 40 different times. 40. The fact that it is generally on the anatomical "head" could have many reasons. With the eyes closer to the brain, there is less lag in reflexes, the brain and eyes are both vulnerable and may as well be placed close together (for efficient protection) and they might just be more effective when placed in a foreward position- eyes only on the back of our head wouldn't do us much good- they would confer no survival value or advantage, so wouldn't help their bearers propagate and represent themselves in the gene pool.

I don't know how to respond to this. You may have been placing unreasonable demands of evidence (like watching an animal change from a monkey to a lizard, which I've heard so often that I don't think there's any hope for humanity) or asking for something that isn't required to prove evolution anyway (like yet another transitional fossil) Without knowing the circumstances, I can't comment further.

Really it was just asking for proof, any proof of evolution. They usually stutter a bit.

Evolution is based upon solid scientific proof.
thats all i ask for.
The field of genetics has largely vindicated Darwin, refining his theory to fit the information that surfaces. Creationism is only valid when viewed through a religious viewpoint. As long as the US remains a democracy, rather than a theocracy, Creationism has no place in schools.
I am preaching the exact opposite of what you say I'm saying. Creationism doesn't belong in schools, but neither does evolution, because honestly, I can find more to disprove evolution than you can to prove it. Evolution is a theory based on theories and some genetic rules that are seen in nature.


I've already said I won't respond to this. I will add that you won't have much luck if you keep calling the audience dumb (some advice from my debate days- which was actually 3 days of debate before I quit. That's a different discussion altogether- I'd better stay on topic.) [/B]
I understand this. You brought it up in both of the posts I was refuting, so I responded in both.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
...

Why is this discussion here?

Gotta hand it to some of 'em. They really gotta make that point, eh?

I love it how Mr. Creationism avoided responding to my post. Then again, he's a holy guy. Undeniably better than 'Insolent Bastards' such as myself.

Nemesis, despite the vast differences between us, I am willing to accept you as my brother. Good job.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Nemesis, despite the vast differences between us, I am willing to accept you as my brother. Good job.
Yeah, I'm officially impressed.

Originally posted by Faunus
Yeah, I'm officially impressed.

It is my divine standards that he must reach. Not your laughable ones.

Alright then, It's Nemesis vs Gideon in a debate of Determinism vs Libertarianism.

Because this totally the right forum.

Originally posted by Gideon
It is my divine standards that he must reach. Not your laughable ones.
No one likes you.

🙁

Originally posted by Faunus
Yeah, I'm officially impressed.

I have already accepted you as my master, sir.

No, you haven't. You just want him to think so.

It's all... part of a plan.

'Course it is. And, don't lie, you're part of it!

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
yes, but not cells or anything of the sort. Nutrients were found in the basic conditions of primordial soup, so what? at what point did nutrients turn into living matter?

Organic molecules, specifically the primordial, pre-cell molecules are not dissimilar from living matter. The current consensus (which is volatile and changes rapidly) is that early life was in the form of "self-replicating molecules. These would be similar to DNA without a cell around it, or proteins that could absorb other matter and convert it to energy.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Abiogenesis is a failure because, once again, it conflicts scientific law.

Abiogenesis is not a finished product. We have studying it for only a few centuries, and have only had a good grasp of molecular genetics for 50 years: the Human Genome was sequenced only in 2003. As a young science, we can't expect it to be instantly flawless. It took thousands of years to realize that the sun was the center of the Solar System.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I'm not sure what to make of this. It certainly isn't logical thinking. Molecules do not "morph" into cells. Cells are not large molecules, and they are not some large morph of a molecule.

I was talking without knowing where I was going. This was a (lackluster) attempt to differentiate between variation through genetic diversity and the changes that primordial organic molecules underwent. For all intents and purposes it was evolution, except that they were DNA/RNA instead of swapping DNA. Organic molecules developed gradually (evolved) into more complex forms, the sole survivor of which is the cell.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
A molecule is two or more atoms bound together, most likely by an interchanging subatomic particles. The Idea that a complex molecule could "morph" into cells is relatively ludicrous. When comparing a cell with a molecule, it is an entirely different business, and one of the most simple cells requires over 200 proteins. On closer examination, a protein is a rather large string of atoms, or a really really complicated molecule. Upon further investigation, many of the molecules found in any cell with any hope to reproduce are DNA, which are incredibly complicated in themselves.

In fact, the key point of information that I failed to convey is that early organic matter was DNA, or a variant thereof. The self-replicating molecules suggested by the theory would be most closely related to DNA. A cell =/= molecule + complexity, and I was wrong for saying so. But, this does not lessen the "truthiness" of abiogenesis, it merely increases the amount of small, gradual changes that had to occur between early proteins and early cells. (DNA is a protein)

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
To talk about the complexity of the cell itself, its wall, its nucleus, all of its moving parts, we see that it couldn't have gradually formed and given itself life over billions of years.

Why not? The improbability of a cell arising from the muck is absurd, but no one is claiming that. I am saying that a set of changes had the net result of [insert newest claim of irreducible complexity here]. Dawkins's metaphor of a gradual slope will serve here. Imagine a mountain with one cliff face, completely vertical. To ascend would require an act of God (as you are suggesting.) Evolution provides an alternative to this. Instead of a single obstacle, one single, impossible event, there is a gradual slope of change- a steady easy path that arrives at the same place without need of the supernatural. Occam's razor therefore can be used to remove any sort of Creator force from the equation. This is the theory of evolution. The theory of abiogenesis has its own issues, far more obvious and open, but to put a creator in the "gaps" in the theory puts it at risk of being strangled. Scientific gaps are filled every day. Do you want to put Yahwe at risk of being pushed out of the gaps altogether? A far better tactic would be first to explain why you find creationism a believeable concept and bear in mind that we learn more every day. To rest your faith on a momentary uncertainty puts your worldview at risk.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Law is the ultimate transcendence of any "theory". I don't understand what your chemistry teacher is doing romanticizing the word "theory".

I hate to quote Wikipedia, but my own respnonse was three additional sections:
"Physical laws are distinguished from scientific theories by their simplicity. Scientific theories are generally more complex than laws; they have many component parts, and are more likely to be changed as the body of available experimental data and analysis develops. This is because a physical law is a summary observation of strictly empirical matters, whereas a theory is a model that accounts for the observation, explains it, relates it to other observations, and makes testable predictions based upon it." (emphasis mine)

A theory includes a law. It explains it. It connects it and relates it to other facts. Laws are simply observations of constants- an observation should not change- theories can, because they include a variety of facts and data. Theory = Law + Thought

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Hello? someone is saying something, someone has been saying something, and someone will always be saying something. This is the blind faith I speak of, when one of your points is that "someone would have said something"

In a field that thrives on peer review, the doubts and obvious flaws in a concept are quickly outed. If there were any grounds for valid scientific dissent, there would be scientific dissent. The truth is that there is no mainstream objection to the theory of evolution.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

That's not what it means at all. The law of thermodynamics states that entropy, or chaos will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium. The word entropy can mean chaos, or it can mean that it will lose energy over time. The closed system merely means that nothing is going to interfere with it, re stack it, build it, or add more energy. While we have kinetic energy from the sun and light rays, it is not the kind of energy that it would take to create life.

You were referring to the theory of evolution- not abiogenesis. "Really, like how the THEORY evolution requires that both LAWS of thermodynamics must be invalid?"[I fixed a html bracket but it was a copy/paste] I'm not informed enough to discuss the applications of thermodynamics on abiogenesis, but I'd be very surprised if it required energy being created or destroyed or the net reduction of entropy (remember that is the only thing prevented by the 2nd law.) I study the effects of evolution- not the rise of life anyway.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

🙂 may I ask if you attend school or university?

If you must know, I'm still in high school. (I have found that one's age has relatively little bearing on relative intelligence, however much my teachers try to persuade me otherwise.)

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

I don't really know where you'd find proof. Who's side am I on? My point is that what you have shown is a hypothesis, little more, as there is no proof to back your rebuttal up. As for the deep sea creatures, they evolved so that they are the way they are. Now before you yell at me for being ironic, let me state that their are two kinds of evolution, evolution among species, such as a cave dwelling fish having useless eyes that can't see (as far as we know) evolving through genetic adaptation from a fish with sight. Any real scientist will believe in that. The one that is controversial is evolution=origin of the species, or Darwinism, which has little to no proof, due to the hypothetical scenario that it happened so long ago that no proof survived to be seen today, either in fossil or in living form.

There is plenty of proof, although I had planned on introducing the technical aspects after I brought in the individual case studies. The bulk of the evidence is in genetics- much of modern evolutionary theory stems from our increased understanding of genetic traits and DNA. The last 50 years have shown rapid growth in comprehension.

The fossil record: Fossils provide a good start for any casual study of evolution, the changes through time are best noticed in stone form, it shows the diversification of species and we get to look at dinosaurs!

The variation of species is another arrow pointing towards evolution. The speciation in the Galapagos islands is famously what inspired Darwin to the theory in the first place. Each bird (because he was observing finches) was very similar to the others on the island, but they were all subtly different. The same bird appeared to have filled multiple niches and in the process became multiple species.

The majority of earth's life forms share genetic code. Organisms with ancestors that split from their common ancestor more recently share more DNA. I'm sure you're aware of the stats: 99.4% similarity between Human and Chimp DNA, 92% similarity between people and mice, even 40% similarity between people and fruit flies. If that doesn't show that there was a common ancestor, and that changes have occurred throughout time then I don't entirely know what will.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
YES! but does survival of the species CREATE new genetic code, or just NARROW IT DOWN?

Put simply, it emphasizes the traits that work. There isn't really any narrowing down: the traits that work are overrepresented in the next generation, which, when compounded by millions of years adds up to hefty, game changing alterations. Mutations are what 'increases' the genetic diversity in a gene pool. Natural selection works on the phenotype of a population- it does nothing to increase or decrease genetic diversity.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
sure the code will be passed down, but if you do any study in genetics, you will notice that many flaws are not repeated for a long time, for instance, my great grandmother had an eleventh toe. It has not been evidenced in our family, even though she survived to maturity and propagated.

This was clearly a recessive trait. You might be a carrier. If you marry a girl whose grandmother also had an eleventh toe, your children might have a chance to receive a trait. I don't know how much you remember about punnet squares, but that is the (admittedly simple and limited) layman's method to determine probability of a recessive trait being passed on.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
It has to happen enough among enough of the fish or shrimp to become commonly hereditary, and once again, how do the nerves get to the brain? why is the light sensitive patch on the head? did it just start with a light sensitive tumor that grew tendrils towards the brain? no matter what you say, this is beginning to sound more and more like science fiction. I find it a stretch that something that was completely blind could pick up the light and as a result, the eye was born.

My fictional shrimp was based on reality, and I handicapped it for you. Some single-celled organisms, some jellyfish, starfish, leeches and various other kinds of worms have photosensitive skin. They can't determine an image, nor the direction of the lightsource. All they can sense is the presence of light somewhere in the vicinity. They do not have image forming eyes, but they do have the base material for Nat. Selection to work with. If you find it to impossible to believe that simple photosensitivity could develop w/o divine intervention, I'd suggest that you consider how small the cellular level is, and how effective photosynthesis is even for tiny single-celled organisms. Cells are not unaffected by light in the same way that we are.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

First of all, this would be incredibly complex for just the first shrimp to have, but for it to be reproduced until the mutation became widespread? It becomes altogether too incredible.

The real-life, even less complex animals have it, so lets not sell our shrimp short.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

that's because no matter what is thrown at evolutionists, they can write a piece of elaborate science fiction, pin it up on the wall, and call it a theory.

You asked for an explanation of the origin of the eye. I obliged. If you want me to talk about how the eye evolved (or shows evidence of evolution, if you prefer) over 40 times in independant lineages I can do that. If you want me to talk about the relative structure of eyes, or the efficacy of liquid in the lens, or about directional, balancing selection, artificial selection, variables in herity (what is inherited vs. what is left behind) punctuated equilibrium, symbiosis, or even the motivations of opposition to evolution, I could. This is a cursory examination of the facts, and by no means could I fit a comprehensive discussion of even selection pressure into a KMC message box. I'd suggest that we remain in the general, and not get bogged down too much in any one area. We could also talk about how the ranching industry relies on evolutionary principles for its livelihood, how medicine relies on evolutionary principles to save lives, and how humans today are bigger than they were even 200 years ago, let alone 2000. (some of that can be attributed to lifestyle, but average height has grown by about 1.5 feet- that doesn't mean nothing.)

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

They then tell their students that while a law may be more proven and more factual, a theory is much more grand

I've dealt with this.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
>.> The Beoing would no more be made by pieces of metal leaning against each other than if they were thrown together in a hurricane. Lets not go to the barren desert of trying to prove creationist's analogies concerning evolution wrong. They are a little too biased for me, and anyone found quoting them as evidence for intelligent design is marked as an idiot by his scientific peers.

If you don't want to use them then i won't bring them up either.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

I'm not going to argue with you here. I honestly believe that species evolve between themselves, but you are never going to create an entirely new species from this, say a feline from a canine. While you can see dogs changing colors after a long time to fit in their surroundings, you never see a dog evolving a mini-periscope on its back to see over jungle shrubs.

Here is a fundamental mistake: species never "switch" families- a cat's ancestors will all be cats. They may change substantially, they may become so far removed that they can no longer interbreed, but they will still be cats. Also, it is fallacious to claim that evolution turns one modern animal into another. It would be better to say "change from a dog-like animal into [whatever]." Evolution can only change what it has to work with- a dog can't grow wings over the course of a few generations because it doesn't have wings to emphasize. It can, however, alter its body structure immensely, if given millions of years with which to reproduce.
MicroEvolution vs. MacroEvolution is another tiresome debate- I'm afraid that I can't reconcile your idea of "1 mutation + 1 mutation = some change within species but 1 mutation + 1 mutation + 1 mutation... into infinity =/= BIG CHANGE." If I've misunderstood something, I'd be thrilled to remove the hypocrisy from acknowledging evolution but then saying it does not work. (my impression of micro/macro)
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Yes, it would be nice to meet an evolutionist that would back up his argument, instead of arguing a lot of the fiction that scientist write to explain away certain arguments that supporters of intelligent design propose.

Please feel free to make an argument for ID. Even if you outdo me (unlikely) and prove that evolution is false, you won't have proven ID. If evolution is wrong, ID isn't automatically right. I'd like to see positive evidence for Creationism, rather than more tearing down of evolution or tying evolution to the completely different concept of abiogenesis.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I like a little proof, I will post proof that clashes with evolution tomorrow as well.

Those case studies might wait 'till saturday- I don't know when I'll get to the library. (I like to have concrete sources before I post anything just in case ppl. ask for a citation- that's why I'm so slow w/SW source material debates: I live through the library)
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Really it was just asking for proof, any proof of evolution. They usually stutter a bit. thats all i ask for. I am preaching the exact opposite of what you say I'm saying. Creationism doesn't belong in schools, but neither does evolution, because honestly, I can find more to disprove evolution than you can to prove it. Evolution is a theory based on theories and some genetic rules that are seen in nature.

Like I said, disproving evolution won't prove creationism. Also, the evidence I've been given in class/research on my own has been compelling. What did you do in biology class? I shudder to think what the teacher thought about you... 🙂

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
'Course it is. And, don't lie, you're part of it!

Shit, you're on to me.

Two options: Die or join meeeeeeee.

I'm not going to jump in the middle of this, but the fundamental flaw of the argument regarding God's existence is the premise of Christianity and Judaism is that God Almighty is supposed to be beyond the scope of human comprehension; humans possess finite and limited intelligence, we are fallible and imperfect, and so the existence of a being whose divinity gives him ascension beyond imperfection and fallibility.

I'm a Christian (Baptist, actually), though I try to keep my faith open minded and aware of advances in science, rather than the fire and brimstone teachings of my predecessors and peers. I do not discount viable theories such as the Big Bang or evolution simply because the Bible does not mention it -- Christians tend to forget that the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God -- it is not as if God parted the skies and dropped the book into our lap. The Bible was authored by mortals bound by all of the moral and intellectual imperfections (politics, as well). So while I recognize the Bible to be a great standard for which a person should ideally live his life around, it truly isn't (pardon the pun) "the gospel" in its literal sense.

Also suffice it to say that faith is belief in the absence of proof. There is no evidence supporting the existence of a divine presence such as God Almighty, we can all agree. But there isn't evidence that contradicts that. Evolution nor the Big Bang come close to discounting His presence or proving the atheists correct. You're trying to prove or disprove the presence of a being who is omniscience and omnipotent and who "works in mysterious ways." That premise means, quite clearly, that there is no human mind or congregation of human minds who can quantify or understand God.

That said, I think Knightfa11 is like my mother; his demeanor throughout this debate represents everything that is wrong with my religion. We shouldn't be so emotionally bound to the defense of Christianity that we are intolerant of differing opinions. A cool-headed, calm argument is the way to go. Not death threats.

Gideon, I want to ask you something. Why do you believe in god?

Why not? You can't prove he does not exist, yet you can't prove he does. It's just a matter of choice or personal opinion.

Yes, it is. I'm just interested in what makes a person believe in god. I can explain why I don't believe in him, if you'd like.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yes, it is. I'm just interested in what makes a person believe in god. I can explain why I don't believe in him, if you'd like.

If you can, i would like to hear your explanation.