The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well unlike Vader and Dooku Kylo Ren is a different kind of villain in the respect that he is untrained, and perhaps more importantly he doesn't simply exist as a foil to the protagonists i.e. an obstacle to overcome.

He is just as much a developing character, emotionally and physically, as Rey is, and if anything we can turn this on its head. That despite all his training, despite his bloodline, he is still getting beaten, and now he has a impetus to get stronger. So in the respect that the villain is not a static but evolving character I think what TFA has done is quite novel and interesting.

I'm particularly interested to see how Rey and Kylo develop alongside each other, and clash in the future. I think that dynamic has a lot of potential.

About Kylo's defeat I'd have to disagree. Anakin's made sense because Dooku was one of the most powerful Jedi to ever exist in a 20,000 year order. Rey was... Completely untrained.

Originally posted by ares834
You're main problem with the film seems to be it's lack of originality. Fair enough. But then, we have a character who subverts a fantasy trope and suddenly that's a bad thing?

Anyway, he was formidable throughout the film. It's only at the end, when Rey pulls lightsaber training out of her ass that she can defeat him.

His motivation is that he is a power hungry bastard like virtually every other Star Wars villain.

Dooku wanted to tear down a corrupt Republic. Vader wanted to save his wife. Not all villains.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well unlike Vader and Dooku Kylo Ren is a different kind of villain in the respect that he is untrained, and perhaps more importantly he doesn't simply exist as a foil to the protagonists i.e. an obstacle to overcome.

He is just as much a developing character, emotionally and physically, as Rey is, and if anything we can turn this on its head. That despite all his training, despite his bloodline, he is still getting beaten, and now he has a impetus to get stronger. So in the respect that the villain is not a static but evolving character I think what TFA has done is quite novel and interesting.

I'm particularly interested to see how Rey and Kylo develop alongside each other, and clash in the future. I think that dynamic has a lot of potential.

👆

I'm looking forward to it. The villain being a rival is always fun to watch.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well unlike Vader and Dooku Kylo Ren is a different kind of villain in the respect that he is untrained,

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
But he's got this whole new philosophy and everything 🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Believe me, I've read all the excuses and handwaving and apologia the internet has to offer on the disappointment that is Kylo goddamn Ren. I don't need Ren to be a planet-buster or omniscient chessmaster. I don't need him to be static. I don't need him to never show weakness.

I just need him to be a formidable and entertaining baddie.

He's neither.

And as I say, I'm happy to forgive his defeat at the hands of Rey for the dynamic its created between the two characters.

Originally posted by Syndicate
About Kylo's defeat I'd have to disagree. Anakin's made sense because Dooku was one of the most powerful Jedi to ever exist in a 20,000 year order. Rey was... Completely untrained.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How the **** is Kylo untrained? He betrayed the Jedi in his late twenties, if what we're told is to be believed. He's got no excuse.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Dooku wanted to tear down a corrupt Republic. Vader wanted to save his wife. Not all villains.

So Dooku states.

And nah, Vader is power hungry as well. Saving his wife was just the catalyst of his fall. But they guy ends up being every bit as power hungry as the rest.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He's still a tsundere.

But that adds depth to his character and stuff 🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂

Originally posted by ares834
You're main problem with the film seems to be it's lack of originality. Fair enough. But then, we have a character who subverts a fantasy trope and suddenly that's a bad thing?

The point is to be original and tell a good story. If a creative decision is original but absolutely shitty, it's a bit of a moot point, isn't it?

Originally posted by ares834
Anyway, he was formidable throughout the film. It's only at the end, when Rey pulls lightsaber training out of her ass that she can defeat him.

The way Finn handled him in the movie was pretty weak, too. And Rey resisting his interrogation and flipping the tables. Which made his decision to relinquish BB-8 a dumbass decision which Hux rightly calls him out on. And his hilarious temper tantrums. None of which convey a sense of formidability.

Originally posted by ares834
His motivation is that he is a power hungry bastard like virtually every other Star Wars villain.

Wasn't that long ago that you and others were talking about how original and deep and edgy his motivation is.

You change your mind?

You know I guess Kylo's defeat does make a bit of sense given he was shot with the equivalent of an explosive round...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Eh, I meant that is training his incomplete.

Yeah the temper tantrums were a little... Eh.

Any of the movie Sith apprentices would take Kylo, Rey, and Finn all to the curb at the same time.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How is that unlike Dooku, Maul, or Vader?

"The Force...."

/Rey kills them all with TK

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Dooku, Vader and Maul are all full fledged Sith Lords settled in their power and abilities. Kylo is not. 😬

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The point is to be original and tell a good story. If a creative decision is original but absolutely shitty, it's a bit of a moot point, isn't it?

Is it shitty? I'd disagree.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The way Finn handled him in the movie was pretty weak, too. And Rey resisting his interrogation and flipping the tables. Which made his decision to relinquish BB-8 a dumbass decision which Hux rightly calls him out on. And his hilarious temper tantrums. None of which convey a sense of formidability.

And yet, he was still a formidable villain throughout that. Sure, Finn scored a glancing blow but Kylo proceeded to kick his ass immediately afterwards. And while Rey resisted his mind probe, she was only put in that situation because he easily captured her using his formidable force powers.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Wasn't that long ago that you and others were talking about how original and deep and edgy his motivation is.

You change your mind?

His motivation? No, I don't think I've ever said as much. Or, if I had, I misspoke. How the character struggles with his inner goodness and his dedication to the dark side and how we actually see it is what makes the character original.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Uh, wut? All are basically exactly like Kylo with the same basic personalities. Kylo particularly has the most Vader-esque backstory ever.

Not that the idea that have the same basic personality is really true at all.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao, I'm not talking about their personalities, I'm talking about their abilities.

/kid's told he's great from a young age
/weird old guy wants to talk to kid
/weird old guy says kid can have whatever he wants if he kills Jedi
/kid believes him and betrays his old life
/kid gets new name and cool mask

Kylo then makes it his mission to be as Vader as possible. The difference is Anakin and Vader cried less, which is an achievement, really.

Trolling or serious? This isn't even worth my time. 😬