Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I get where you're coming from, and frankly I agree. But I see a problem with it.In Canada, one of our Members of Parliament once called for an opening of negotiations with the Taliban. But how do you negotiate with diplomacy when the enemy refuses to do likewise? Same with Hamas. They were, for all intents and purposes, given reign over Gaza, something Palestinians wanted for a while and to which Israel complied with 3 years go. Instead of using that compliance and building Gaza into successful region, they continued to lob rockets over the border. Why? They got what they wanted: control of Gaza, there's no need for continuing attacks, unless of course they have beef with Israel's very existence.
Israel did the only rational thing: attack the incessant attackers. Attackers who sadly shield themselves with civilians. A clever move of Hamas, they know of the international backlash of the unavoidable civilian casualties. Israel drops leaflets, voices a warning of attack, and has even sent warning cell phone texts to Gaza civilians despite the loss of the element of surprise that results.
Civilian casualties are an element of every war only exacerbated by the willingness of Hamas to sacrifice them.
Hamas will want to talk when they're in ruins. At least I hope so. They honestly won't have another choice, now that they've seen Israel's military power.
I know Israel did everything in its power to stop civilian casualties, I know some sort of attack was necessary, and I know Hamas is largely responsible for the damage brought upon Gaza, but still, Israel should do its best in order to minimize the attack's power and therefore decrease the amount of civilian casualties. So long as the attack continues, civilians will die. To some point, this is necessary, but eventually it just gets excessive. Which is why I feel we need to pull out now and resume negotiations.
Originally posted by Master CrimzonAnd resort to the way things were? Hamas will again just continue to fire missiles, it's shown that despite the moral negativity the rest of the world (I should say "much of the world"😉 associates with their acts, it's willing to go through with it because it has support from the Arab world and knows the West won't get militarily involved or decline supplies to the region (just look at the outcry so far in that field). Unless Hamas is actually destroyed, they'll continue doing what they've always done because they know that the rest of the world won't do anything about it. Only Israel will, and even some of their own people dislike it.
Hamas will want to talk when they're in ruins. At least I hope so. They honestly won't have another choice, now that they've seen Israel's military power.I know Israel did everything in its power to stop civilian casualties, I know some sort of attack was necessary, and I know Hamas is largely responsible for the damage brought upon Gaza, but still, Israel should do its best in order to minimize the attack's power and therefore decrease the amount of civilian casualties. So long as the attack continues, civilians will die. To some point, this is necessary, but eventually it just gets excessive. Which is why I feel we need to pull out now and resume negotiations.
The very fact that Hamas will fight a war they can't win (even with civilian shields) is testament to their resolve to keep fighting Israel, even after Palestinians were given Gaza. I mean, what do they want? They'll negotiate a peace talk, but will Israel give them anything else, like more land? Of course not, that idea is absurd. Even in peace talks, one side is gonna come off far worse, likely Israel because the rest of the world pressures them about "the tragic civilian deaths" Hamas encourages.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And resort to the way things were? Hamas will again just continue to fire missiles, it's shown that despite the moral negativity the rest of the world (I should say "much of the world"😉 associates with their acts, it's willing to go through with it because it has support from the Arab world and knows the West won't get militarily involved or decline supplies to the region (just look at the outcry so far in that field). Unless Hamas is actually destroyed, they'll continue doing what they've always done because they know that the rest of the world won't do anything about it. Only Israel will, and even some of their own people dislike it.The very fact that Hamas will fight a war they can't win (even with civilian shields) is testament to their resolve to keep fighting Israel, even after Palestinians were given Gaza. I mean, what do they want? They'll negotiate a peace talk, but will Israel give them anything else, like more land? Of course not, that idea is absurd. Even in peace talks, one side is gonna come off far worse, likely Israel because the rest of the world pressures them about "the tragic civilian deaths" Hamas encourages.
I wholeheartedly agree. As you said, they will continue fighting this war even if they do seek a cease agreement, because they have the support of nearly the entire middle east. While getting rid of Hamas in its entirety is going to be difficult, I think that is the only choice Israel has left. It will send a message to those other middle eastern groups to stay out.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And resort to the way things were? Hamas will again just continue to fire missiles, it's shown that despite the moral negativity the rest of the world (I should say "much of the world"😉 associates with their acts, it's willing to go through with it because it has support from the Arab world and knows the West won't get militarily involved or decline supplies to the region (just look at the outcry so far in that field). Unless Hamas is actually destroyed, they'll continue doing what they've always done because they know that the rest of the world won't do anything about it. Only Israel will, and even some of their own people dislike it.The very fact that Hamas will fight a war they can't win (even with civilian shields) is testament to their resolve to keep fighting Israel, even after Palestinians were given Gaza. I mean, what do they want? They'll negotiate a peace talk, but will Israel give them anything else, like more land? Of course not, that idea is absurd. Even in peace talks, one side is gonna come off far worse, likely Israel because the rest of the world pressures them about "the tragic civilian deaths" Hamas encourages.
I know that, realistically, the only way to stop Hamas' actions is to destroy the entire organization, but I feel that the human price for doing so is, quite simply, too high.
Think about it; we've never been in a scenario quite like this. Never in modern times have we hit Hamas quite as hard. With this light, I believe that they might consider the possibility of actually engaging in civil negotiations. We need to work harder in order to gain international assistance, from the U.N/U.S. We at least need to try to stop the killing and use it in order to achieve a state of peace, rather than constant war. Hamas can't be destroyed without destroying Gaza, and if that happens, thousands of martyrs will be born, and for them, tens of thousands of terrorist and anti-Israelis will rise. War is an endless cycle; it can't bring closure in any way. Therefore, I believe that going on a more peaceful route is the only reasonable option.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I'd rather be optimistic and do everything I can in order to achieve peace than commit potentially unnecessary acts of mass murder.It will change. It can change. That's what I believe. The only thing preventing the change are people who are too cynical to acknowledge the possibility of peace.
You call it cynical, I call it being realistic. I admire your optimism but it's just not conducive to anything seeing as how history has shown us that you are wrong.
Times have changed. The current scenario isn't a direct replica of any situation in history. I think I'm being realistic as well in my scenario; your hatred of Hamas seems to get in the way of your judgment, IMO. I hate them too and would like to see them destroyed, but the price is too high.
I still feel that using the dent in Hamas now in order to engage in internationally-monitored negotiations will work. I guess we'll see, though. There isn't a single definitive solution to this war.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Times have changed. The current scenario isn't a direct replica of any situation in history. I think I'm being realistic as well in my scenario; your hatred of Hamas seems to get in the way of your judgment, IMO. I hate them too and would like to see them destroyed, but the price is too high.I still feel that using the dent in Hamas now in order to engage in internationally-monitored negotiations will work. I guess we'll see, though. There isn't a single definitive solution to this war.
While times have changed, certain ideas and organizations promoting those ideas haven't. This is no different.
Originally posted by Master CrimzonIt'd be beautiful if humanity functioned as smoothly as you hope for, Communism's promised utopia may not be just a dream after all.
I know that, realistically, the only way to stop Hamas' actions is to destroy the entire organization, but I feel that the human price for doing so is, quite simply, too high.Think about it; we've never been in a scenario quite like this. Never in modern times have we hit Hamas quite as hard. With this light, I believe that they might consider the possibility of actually engaging in civil negotiations. We need to work harder in order to gain international assistance, from the U.N/U.S. We at least need to try to stop the killing and use it in order to achieve a state of peace, rather than constant war. Hamas can't be destroyed without destroying Gaza, and if that happens, thousands of martyrs will be born, and for them, tens of thousands of terrorist and anti-Israelis will rise. War is an endless cycle; it can't bring closure in any way. Therefore, I believe that going on a more peaceful route is the only reasonable option.
But as it is, I think this is just where we part in preference and empiricism. I've witnesses, studied, read about, and been apart of too much treachery and deceit to believe anything the already proven traitorous Hamas promises. If the only power who resists them capitulates, they're emboldened--just one more case of Chamberlain-style appeasement. Give a mouse a cookie...
Hamas' only risk now is to be destroyed. Short of that, they've got nowhere to go but up--up into newly seceded territory handed them by the Israeli government at the behest of the overly sensitive West and the glaring threats of the Arabs. That would be the second time now, may as well try it once more in a few years.
People in your region will be killed, whether Hamas is destroyed or not. It's either hundreds now and order in the area, or thousands (and likely upon thousands) later, with no order in sight. Hiroshima and Nagaski: 300,000 dead and war's end, or millions dead and the destruction of the Japanese people. Lesser of two evils prevails.
Personally, if I were an Israeli, I'd rather see the Palestinians broken and Hamas destroyed than have to live in a constant state of alertness and fear for my own life.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien+
It'd be beautiful if humanity functioned as smoothly as you hope for, Communism's promised utopia may not be just a dream after all.But as it is, I think this is just where we part in preference and empiricism. I've witnesses, studied, read about, and been apart of too much treachery and deceit to believe anything the already proven traitorous Hamas promises. If the only power who resists them capitulates, they're emboldened--just one more case of Chamberlain-style appeasement. Give a mouse a cookie...
Hamas' only risk now is to be destroyed. Short of that, they've got nowhere to go but up--up into newly seceded territory handed them by the Israeli government at the behest of the overly sensitive West and the glaring threats of the Arabs. That would be the second time now, may as well try it once more in a few years.
People in your region will be killed, whether Hamas is destroyed or not. It's either hundreds now and order in the area, or thousands (and likely [B]upon
thousands) later, with no order in sight. Hiroshima and Nagaski: 300,000 dead and war's end, or millions dead and the destruction of the Japanese people. Lesser of two evils prevails.Personally, if I were an Israeli, I'd rather see the Palestinians broken and Hamas destroyed than have to live in a constant state of alertness and fear for my own life. [/B]
You don't think Hamas may want to negotiate after being nearly burned into the ground? I believe they will. I honestly don't see any reason why not. This isn't just 'another' bout at negotiations; we've never done anything exactly like this, you see. Similar things, yes, but not quite the same. Reasonably speaking, negotiations should be easy to achieve.
And, no, I can't degenerate to the level of wanting to see the other side completely destroyed in order to stop them from firing rockets at me. Again, they don't all deserve to be killed by us, just like Berlin should not have been destroyed, and just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki were completely unnecessary.
Look at it this way; Hamas is half-destroyed. A good amount of its highest ranking officials are dead. Essentially, it's in complete anarchy now. They're gonna beg for us to stop the attack, and stopping the firing of the rockets due to fear is an absolute given. When they're afraid, I'd bet they'd be more willing to listen to reason. That's it.
Originally posted by Master CrimzonSee there's the peach of the deal: reasonable people would negotiate, but Hamas reasonable? You perhaps may fold, but that's not the case for everyone. Hamas has been attacking Israel for how long? Unless they consist of the stupidest terrorists in the world, they had to know an Israeli offensive was imminent. Both sides have rejected peace deals---sound like the broken resolve of crippled militants to you? They'll sacrifice their own people willingly, and until they're out of battle-ready troops, Hamas has shown it's willing to keep this up.
+You don't think Hamas may want to negotiate after being nearly burned into the ground? I believe they will. I honestly don't see any reason why not. This isn't just 'another' bout at negotiations; we've never done anything exactly like this, you see. Similar things, yes, but not quite the same. Reasonably speaking, negotiations should be easy to achieve.
And, no, I can't degenerate to the level of wanting to see the other side completely destroyed in order to stop them from firing rockets at me. Again, they don't all deserve to be killed by us, just like Berlin should not have been destroyed, and just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki were completely unnecessary.
Look at it this way; Hamas is half-destroyed. A good amount of its highest ranking officials are dead. Essentially, it's in complete anarchy now. They're gonna beg for us to stop the attack, and stopping the firing of the rockets due to fear is an absolute given. When they're afraid, I'd bet they'd be more willing to listen to reason. That's it.
Besides, no offense offered, but you mention Hamas folding due to being battered? You support an attack on Hamas then? If so, what exactly were you expecting the IDF to do? Knock on everyone's doors and ask them if there are militants inside?
Oh and I never said I want the Palestinians dead, I'd rather have them broken, in morale, resolve etc. Same with Japan. Those 300,000 dead didn't deserve to die, I know. Hell, if you wanna get into morality, it can be argued that soldiers don't deserve to die either (barring the sadistic murderous ones that is), but hey, them's the breaks. Civilians die because it's war, not an equal trade of bodies. But hey, if the Palestinian people don't wanna die, they can help out with Hamas' destruction. If not, then oh well. I feel sorry for the ones being forced into submission by the group, but the civilians who willingly stand in the way of an assault... I couldn't care less. Call me heartless if you want, it doesn't stop the fact that if I choose a camp, I'll defend it and attack my attackers, unintentional collateral damage be damned.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
...just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki were completely unnecessary.
You know, you have brought this up multiple times now and I don't really see how you can just bring that up and use it to support your point, when you can't even prove that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not unnecessary. The firebombing of Tokyo killed more people and this was before the atomic bombings.
I also think you are too quick to just assume that Hamas is just going to cave in any time soon. These people are radicals, not people who think rationally. They are driven by hatred.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
See there's the peach of the deal: reasonable people would negotiate, but Hamas reasonable? You perhaps may fold, but that's not the case for everyone. Hamas has been attacking Israel for how long? Unless they consist of the stupidest terrorists in the world, they had to know an Israeli offensive was imminent. Both sides have rejected peace deals---sound like the broken resolve of crippled militants to you? They'll sacrifice their own people willingly, and until they're out of battle-ready troops, Hamas has shown it's willing to keep this up.
Well, if what I heard is true and they did ask for a ceasefire, it's a step in the right direction. I honestly don't think that Hamas can go through this sort of assault and simply continue to attack us, especially with their smuggling tunnels destroyed. I'd rather live in a state of constant alert (and I know what that's like) than destroy an entire population.
And I still believe that Hamas' reason may increase now.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Besides, no offense offered, but you mention Hamas folding due to being battered? You support an attack on Hamas then? If so, what exactly were you expecting the IDF to do? Knock on everyone's doors and ask them if there are militants inside?
Did you miss the part when I mentioned that I support Israel's military attack? I also had a debate with some "Israel = evil" people in the General Discussion forum. I just think we've done enough. Total holocaust for the Palestinian people is unnecessary.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh and I never said I want the Palestinians dead, I'd rather have them broken, in morale, resolve etc. Same with Japan.
That's what we've done so far. There's a point, however, that morally broken turns into ****ing nuts. If we destroy Gaza, you have no idea what the ramifications will be.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Those 300,000 dead didn't deserve to die, I know. Hell, if you wanna get into morality, it can be argued that soldiers don't deserve to die either (barring the sadistic murderous ones that is), but hey, them's the breaks.
Soldiers willingly risk their lives. That's the difference between them and civilians who are unfortunate enough to be in a government that endorses terror, fear, and non-stop propaganda.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Civilians die because it's war, not an equal trade of bodies. But hey, if the Palestinian people don't wanna die, they can help out with Hamas' destruction.
Impossible; Hamas has them under their complete domination. A coup simply won't work. These are people who are trapped in a religiou war against their will. It's not their fault; it's Hamas'.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If not, then oh well. I feel sorry for the ones being forced into submission by the group, but the civilians who willingly stand in the way of an assault... I couldn't care less.
You mean the kids who are raised on propaganda, lies, and religious extremism? It's not their damn fault.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Call me heartless if you want, it doesn't stop the fact that if I choose a camp, I'll defend it and attack my attackers, [B]unintentional collateral damage be damned. [/B]
You're a heartless bastard. 🙁
Seriously, though, I guess I just care too much. Collateral damage is inevitable in war, but that doesn't mean we should revel in it and don't do everything in power to stop it.
Autokrat, even radicals have a brain. They won't risk another war. Also, Japan would have caved to the U.S assault without the usage of the atomic bombs, IMO.