The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Darth Sexy3,287 pages

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Why are they 'lucky' to be living in Israel? WE'RE 'lucky' to be living in Israel, actually; they're the ones who occupied it until the U.N gave us a good portion of the land. Gaza, while an effective start, isn't enough to inhabit the rapidly growing numbers of Palestinians. True fairness would be to equally share Israel, and give the Palestinians an actual country. Besides, it's more likely to bring peace. This whole 'Make-no-compromises' philosophy is very narrow.

Do you really want a detailed history of who was in Israel first? When I mean they should be lucky, I mean the fact that the arab countries such as Pakistan do NOT want Jews living in it while Israel has no problems with Arabs living in their country. And please tell me why Palestinians deserve their own country? They have the entire middle east around them.

This is the very idea that gets in the way of peace, you know? The idea that we're a poor, oppressed nation who must fight for our own survival eternally. We've actually destroyed a good amount of Hamas' members. And a ceasefire wish would imply that they're 'backing down', eh?

No, this kind of thinking is ridiculous. While we ARE an oppressed nation because we live in the the center of a war zone for the past half century, we do not use that as a justification for war. Only when we have been pushed do we push back.

The whole world is against us because we make it so; we're not destined to live this way forever. We just have to make some painful sacrifices on OUR part.

This is absolutely ridiculous. The whole world was against us 4,000 years ago, 3,000 years ago, when Israel became a country in 1948, and now. Don't give me this "we make it so nonsense". We have done nothing for the world to be against us.

Tangible- I won't accept the absolute destruction of the Palestinians for anything, even if it means eternal peace. That's unfair. I personally believe that giving them more land, threatening more military action, using the U.N and U.S (to a point), and getting more world wide support is a suitable course of action that can actually lead to peace, rather than staying in the same cycle of hatred forever. I'd rather there be tense peace (it's worked fine with us and Egypt) than eternal war.

That's where you and I differ. You don't think realistically and I have decades of history backing me up. I will take the absolute destruction of Palestinians if that is the only way we will have peace. I doubt it will ever come to that because as you said, there are a lot of Palestinians who don't share the same radical views as the organizations representing them. And the only reason we have peace with Egypt, was because we wiped the floor with them In 67 and 73. They don't have the power to fight Israel so LUCKILY they get the hint. There's no evidence Hamas gets the hint.

Also, if the Palestinians really don't want Hamas in charge, now would be the perfect time for them to make a coup themselves. Fatah may be able to rise to power again- and they're less extreme than Hamas. All in all, though, peace with Hamas is just that; peace.

Unfortunately it seems that more Palestinians support Hamas than oppose them. You're really not understanding the fact that Jews and radical fundamentalists won't have peace.. Not now, not ever.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Do you really want a detailed history of who was in Israel first? When I mean they should be lucky, I mean the fact that the arab countries such as Pakistan do NOT want Jews living in it while Israel has no problems with Arabs living in their country. And please tell me why Palestinians deserve their own country? They have the entire middle east around them.

Because the Palestinians are a nation of their own. And yeah, I don't think it honestly matters who was here 2,000 years ago so much as it matters who was here 60 years ago. The Palestinians had their land directly taken from them, and are now left to live as a sub-nation with downright horrendous conditions. We aren't the same as Pakistan.

Palestinians aren't just like any Arabs, just like Egyptians aren't any Arabs, and just like Syrians aren't any Arabs. They're all different nations with the right to have a nation of their own.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, this kind of thinking is ridiculous. While we ARE an oppressed nation because we live in the the center of a war zone for the past half century, we do not use that as a justification for war. Only when we have been pushed do we push back.

This is absolutely ridiculous. The whole world was against us 4,000 years ago, 3,000 years ago, when Israel became a country in 1948, and now. Don't give me this "we make it so nonsense". We have done nothing for the world to be against us.

Really? How about being very, er, 'poor' in public relationships? It's been now, it's been when we were in Germany, it's been forever. If we started caring about what people thought of us, we'd probably be able to shed our image. If we make evident motions towards peace, the world will begin supporting us; even Arabic nations.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's where you and I differ. You don't think realistically and I have decades of history backing me up.

No, no, you honestly don't have decades of history backing you up, because circumstances were never the same as they are now.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I will take the absolute destruction of Palestinians if that is the only way we will have peace. I doubt it will ever come to that because as you said, there are a lot of Palestinians who don't share the same radical views as the organizations representing them. And the only reason we have peace with Egypt, was because we wiped the floor with them In 67 and 73. They don't have the power to fight Israel so LUCKILY they get the hint. There's no evidence Hamas gets the hint.

I think the death of the entire Palestinian nation is a FAR too high a cost for us to pay in order to achieve peace. It's unfair and it's anti-humanitarian. War is exactly the time to maintain moral standards and not degenerate to the average terrorist's level.

What do you think we're doing with the Palestinians now, huh? 'Wiping the floor' with them seems like a good metaphor. There was no evidence Egypt got the point at the time. In fact, the Israeli Prime Minister's motion was entirely controversial due to many of the reasons you're stating. The supposed impracticality of peace with Arab nations and that.

You know why Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated? Because he was willing to give up Israeli land in order to achieve peace. And, indeed, it LOOKED as if peace was going to be here, until we ourselves screwed it all up with our conservative philosophy of how 'things will never change'. Yes, they can change.

Oh, the Hamas doesn't get the hint now? Stop ignoring the fact they might have offered us a ceasefire. If this isn't a sign of how they're now more willing to be reasonable, I don't know what is.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Unfortunately it seems that more Palestinians support Hamas than oppose them. You're really not understanding the fact that Jews and radical fundamentalists won't have peace.. Not now, not ever.

The only thing that will absolutely verify your point is if all people endorse this idea that 'things will never change'. If you adopt this mentality, things really won't change. If you take a shallow look at history and just say that 'It's never worked', it really won't ever work.

But, again, things are different now. And I'd rather be a country that constantly makes attempts at peace than a country that commits an unjust holocaust and murders tens of thousands of innocent in order to stop some rockets being blown up at us.

You understand, war is a cycle of hate. Every war causes another war, whether indirectly or directly. By constantly fighting, we're simply giving people more reasons to hate us and less reason to attempt to rationalize with us. And you know what this causes? Even if Hamas is destroyed, another organization will be born.

You can't destroy all radical fundamentalists. Now you're being entirely unrealistic. And you can't fight all of them off, either. Therefore, the only possible option is to explore peace through a diplomatic route. Now is the perfect time.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And wtf? Now it's about the Palestinians' harm through the Hamas? To the best of my knowledge, Hamas simply hadn't caused -that- much direct damage to the Palestinian people themselves. Sure, it's pretty much a totalitarian regime, but if it works for them, go for it.
Hamas wasn't elected, so "works" for them isn't "works for the Palestinians," it's "works for Hamas." The phrase "human shield" once again pops up.

And Hamas last week executed I think it was 10 Fatah and shot 75 more in the legs, crippling them. If the Israeli gov't was doing this to you guys, would you call them just, moral, and deserving to rule? Or would you condone the removal of such barbarians to protect your people?

Seriously if you're justifying what Hamas has done to you guys and to its own people, then I'm done. You're developing into a Hamas apologist and despite your admirable goal of wanting peace, you're refusing to consider the very serious negative ramifications of a "tense" peace. There is nothing to suggest that Hamas will stop rocket fire of its own accord, and if those zealous bastards are so weak that they sue for peace then the IDF would be fools not to finish them once and for all.

Hamas wasn't elected, so "works" for them isn't "works for the Palestinians," it's "works for Hamas." The phrase "human shield" once again pops up.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8FCLKE80&show_article=1


RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) - Islamic militant Hamas' landslide victory in Palestinian elections unnerved the world Thursday, darkening prospects for Mideast peace and ending four decades of rule by the corruption-riddled Fatah Party.

The parliamentary victory stunned even Hamas leaders, who mounted a well-organized campaign but have no experience in government. They offered to share power with President Mahmoud Abbas, the Fatah chief, who said he may go around the new government to talk peace with Israel.

Underscoring the tensions between the secular Fatah and fundamentalist Hamas, some 3,000 supporters of the militant group marched through Ramallah and raised their party's green flag over the Palestinian parliament. Fatah supporters tried to lower the banner. The two sides fought for about 30 minutes, throwing stones and breaking windows in the building.

Abbas, who was elected last year to a four-year term as president of the Palestinian Authority, has yet to decide how closely to work with a group that built its clout through suicide bombings. But his Fatah Party decided not to join a Hamas government, Fatah legislator Saab Erekat said.

"We will be a loyal opposition and rebuild the party," Erekat said after meeting with Abbas.

Hamas won a clear majority in Wednesday's vote, capturing 76 of the 132 seats in parliament, according to official, near-complete results released Thursday. The results of the popular vote were not announced.

Four independent candidates backed by Hamas also won seats. Fatah, which has dominated Palestinian political life since the 1960s but alienated voters because of rampant corruption, got 43 seats. The remaining went to smaller parties.

Palestinians across the Gaza Strip and West Bank greeted the election results with joy, setting off fireworks and firing rifles in the air.

But leaders across the world demanded that Hamas, which is branded a terror group by the U.S. and European Union, renounce violence and recognize Israel.

"If your platform is the destruction of Israel, it means you're not a partner in peace, and we're interested in peace," President Bush said in Washington.

Acting Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel will not negotiate with a Palestinian government that includes Hamas members, and senior Cabinet officials held an emergency meeting to discuss the repercussions of the vote. Acting Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asked the EU not to deal with a "terror government."

Hamas leaders immediately took to the international—and even Israeli—airwaves to send out a moderate message.

"Don't be afraid," Ismail Haniyeh, a Hamas leader, told the BBC.

Mahmoud Zahar, another Hamas leader, said the group would extend its year-old truce if Israel reciprocates. "If not, then I think we will have no option but to protect our people and our land," he said.

At a victory news conference late Thursday, however, Haniyeh said Hamas will "complete the liberation of other parts of Palestine." He did not say which territories he was referring to or how he would go about it.

Hamas has largely adhered to the cease-fire declared last February, while a smaller militant group, Islamic Jihad, carried out six suicide bombings against Israelis during that period.

Abbas said he remained committed to peace talks and suggested they be conducted through the Palestine Liberation Organization rather than the Palestinian Authority. That could help him sidestep a Hamas-run government in peace talks.

"I am committed to implementing the program on which you elected me a year ago," he said in a televised speech. "It is a program based on negotiations and peaceful settlement with Israel."

Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia and his Cabinet resigned to make room for a Hamas-led government.

The Islamic group quickly reached out to Abbas to try to work out a partnership, Haniyeh said, adding that he did not expect the Palestinian leader to resign.

Hamas leaders had said before the vote they would be content to be a junior partner in the next government. The group campaigned mainly on cleaning up the Palestinian Authority—downplaying the conflict with Israel—and Zahar said Thursday that Hamas planned to overhaul the government.

"We are going to change every aspect, as regards the economy, as regards industry, as regards agriculture, as regards social aid, as regards health, administration, education," he said.

Some experts believed the Hamas victory would force it to moderate. Others feared it would embolden the group to remake Palestinian life in keeping with its strict interpretation of Islam.

"We don't want the Palestinian people and cause to be isolated. We don't want a theocracy," said independent lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi. "Hamas promises reform, sure they will do that, I would like to see reform. But what worries me is things like legislation on education, culture, social welfare, the ramifications for peace in the future."

Hamas' victory was cheered in the Arab world, though many said they feared the group would become even more radical under pressure from its hard-line backers, Syria and Iran.

The rise of Hamas was certain to be a key issue in Israel's March 28 election.

"Today, Hamastan was formed, a representative of Iran and in the image of the Taliban," said Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of the opposition Likud Party. Labor Party politician Ami Ayalon, a former head of the Shin Bet security service, said Israel might have to change the route of its West Bank security barrier because of the Hamas victory.

Immediately upon taking power, Hamas will be confronted with an avalanche of issues, including what to do about the Palestinian security services, which are comprised of hard-core Fatah members, said Basem Ezbidi, a political science professor at the West Bank's Bir Zeit University. "It's not going to be easy for Hamas to govern these bodies," he said.

Others expected Hamas to fold its own fighters into the security forces.

Hamas' victory virtually ruled out a resumption of stalled peace efforts, and could push Israel to take further unilateral moves to set its permanent borders, following last year's Gaza pullout.

It also could jeopardize hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign donations to the cash-strapped Palestinian Authority.

Speaking at a news conference, Bush did not directly answer a question about the fate of U.S. aid to the Palestinians, though he suggested Hamas' victory could have an impact. "I made it very clear that the United States does not support political parties that want to destroy our ally Israel, and that people must renounce that part of their platform," he said.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is to meet in London on Monday with U.N., Russian and European leaders as the so-called "Quartet" of would-be international peacemakers evaluates the results and tries to decide how to proceed.

Despite the rhetoric, it will be almost impossible for Israel and the Palestinians to sever ties completely. Much of their infrastructure, including water and electricity networks, is intertwined, and the vast majority of Palestinian imports pass through Israeli-controlled borders. Hamas ministers would also need Israeli permission to travel between the West Bank and Gaza.

That they were elected was America's fault- we should not have allowed a militant/terrorist group be on the ticket. We actually legitimized their government. *facepalm*

Hamas apologist? I'm the dude getting bombed by them. I can't be a Hamas apologist. Hell, if Hamas could be destroyed without killing thousands of civilians, I'd be all for it.

Regardless, turning them into unreasonable monsters without a shred of human rationality is bullshit. If a suitable enough deal is done, they have to react somehow; probably peacefully. Continuing to fire missiles at us simply doesn't work, and they are going to understand this.

Aside from that, don't pretend the point of this war is to 'liberate Palestine'. Also, Hamas was, as funny as it sounds, democratically elected in 2006 by the Palestinian people. They're the rule of the majority; hell, if they're so weak at the moment and the Palestinian people want them gone, than they could arrange a coup and replace Hamas with a different government. It's up to what they want, I suppose. Y'see, replacing the government of a country with a different, installed one simply doesn't work (as proven by Iraq), and simply overthrowing Hamas will result in anarchy and the potential rise of yet another uber-militaristic organization.

Wanting peace isn't a sign of weakness, either. It's a sign of increased rationality and the ability to actually come to peaceful negotiations. Hamas CAN'T be destroyed. Even if we destroy it, it's just going to be used as propaganda and more terrorist fundamentalist organizations will rise, once again feeding the cycle of war and terrorism. That's why diplomacy is really the most 'permanent' solution, even if the results aren't perfect.

What exactly are the ramifications of a tense peace? That's what we have with Egypt, and a tense peace is FAR better than eternal war, which is what the alternative is. Substantiate what you think will be the damages of having a tense peace with Hamas.

Edit: Damn, Nemesis beat me to the whole election angle.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Because the Palestinians are a nation of their own. And yeah, I don't think it honestly matters who was here 2,000 years ago so much as it matters who was here 60 years ago. The Palestinians had their land directly taken from them, and are now left to live as a sub-nation with downright horrendous conditions. We aren't the same as Pakistan.

Palestinians aren't just like any Arabs, just like Egyptians aren't any Arabs, and just like Syrians aren't any Arabs. They're all different nations with the right to have a nation of their own.


Please spare me the "everyone is different" logic. That Israel has a state of its own is legitimate.

Really? How about being very, er, 'poor' in public relationships? It's been now, it's been when we were in Germany, it's been forever. If we started caring about what people thought of us, we'd probably be able to shed our image. If we make evident motions towards peace, the world will begin supporting us; even Arabic nations.

This is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. I wouldn't call you a Hamas apologist yet but you're definitely not a Jew or Israeli, or logical in the least bit. We have been oppressed for 4,000 years. Our image is irrelevant to the rest of the world. Our total annihilation is the only thing that is relevant. The Arabic nations will NOT begin to support us. I love how you ignores millennia of oppression and decades of hatred with some liberal nonsense about peace. For the last time, your argument contradicts history.

No, no, you honestly don't have decades of history backing you up, because circumstances were never the same as they are now.

Bullshit. Do you even know ANYTHING about the country you live in? Because I sure as hell do. And in the grand scheme of things it's no difference. The fact that you have to try and nitpick to find something tells it all.

I think the death of the entire Palestinian nation is a FAR too high a cost for us to pay in order to achieve peace. It's unfair and it's anti-humanitarian. War is exactly the time to maintain moral standards and not degenerate to the average terrorist's level.

I guess you prefer the death of Israel then. Doubt you'd have any objections the way you're going.

What do you think we're doing with the Palestinians now, huh? 'Wiping the floor' with them seems like a good metaphor. There was no evidence Egypt got the point at the time. In fact, the Israeli Prime Minister's motion was entirely controversial due to many of the reasons you're stating. The supposed impracticality of peace with Arab nations and that.

Egypt got the point as far as seeing the military might of Israel. Now they see that same military might backed up by the most powerful military in history (us), so credit to them for not being completely incompetent and raising hell. Hamas and other radical fundamentalists do NOT understand logic, so they will continue to do what they always do and we can either continue to fight them and "wipe the floor" with them, or we can go your route and try to make peace while they laugh at our weakness and kill more of us. Spare me.

You know why Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated? Because he was willing to give up Israeli land in order to achieve peace. And, indeed, it LOOKED as if peace was going to be here, until we ourselves screwed it all up with our conservative philosophy of how 'things will never change'. Yes, they can change.

One radical conservative ruined it all. I didn't say being all the way right winged was the way to go. Nazi Germany was completely right and look what happened. What I'm saying is you don't have an argument in terms of history, and the present.

Oh, the Hamas doesn't get the hint now? Stop ignoring the fact they might have offered us a ceasefire. If this isn't a sign of how they're now more willing to be reasonable, I don't know what is.

Rofl. They'll offer a ceasefire when they're facing complete annihilation, and that's a MAYBE. Or it looks like they'll go down fighting. Either way I'm glad you're not in the Israeli Army or have any influence over that country. Stick to the UN.

The only thing that will absolutely verify your point is if all people endorse this idea that 'things will never change'. If you adopt this mentality, things really won't change. If you take a shallow look at history and just say that 'It's never worked', it really won't ever work.

And if you adopt YOUR mentality, then you will get trampled upon while you babble incessantly about "peace". At least my logic is not only realistic, but it works. I won't go as far as saying things will never change, but it is highly unlikely that Jews and radical Islamists will EVER see eye to eye. So please stop being an idealist in a time where it's not only unnecessary, but plain illogical.

But, again, things are different now. And I'd rather be a country that constantly makes attempts at peace than a country that commits an unjust holocaust and murders tens of thousands of innocent in order to stop some rockets being blown up at us.

Unjust holocaust my ass. I have not once seen you defend Israel against the Middle East onslaught for the past 60 years. But when Israel becomes the aggressor, we get this typical leftist bullshit. That kind of nonsense is the reason why American society is going down the shitter.

You understand, war is a cycle of hate. Every war causes another war, whether indirectly or directly. By constantly fighting, we're simply giving people more reasons to hate us and less reason to attempt to rationalize with us. And you know what this causes? Even if Hamas is destroyed, another organization will be born.

And we will continue to fight until we no longer have to.

You can't destroy all radical fundamentalists. Now you're being entirely unrealistic. And you can't fight all of them off, either. Therefore, the only possible option is to explore peace through a diplomatic route. Now is the perfect time.

And the last thing radical fundamentalists want is peace. What you've just said basically goes against all of the radical mentality in the middle east. Seriously, if you're not a Hamas apologist, then you're definitely a left wing nutcase.

Your 'logic' is deteriorating. I suggest that you take a chill pill and come back with a little bit less enthusiasm and a little more reason.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Please spare me the "everyone is different" logic. That Israel has a state of its own is legitimate.

Everyone is different, but I can't see how that was his 'angle.' MC wasn't trying to discredit Israel's right to have a state. (The idea is laughable- he lives there.) He was reminding you that the Palestinians also have a right to a sovereign state.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. I wouldn't call you a Hamas apologist yet but you're definitely not a Jew or Israeli, or logical in the least bit.

Pot calling the kettle black much? You don't have the right to determine what is and is not logical, as you clearly don't have a great handle on that concept yourself. Also: ROFL @ "[Y]ou're not a Jew/Israeli." MC does not appear to be a Jew (his disdain towards Knightfall implied that he isn't theistic at all) but that does not prevent one from being an Israeli (one who lives in Israel).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

We have been oppressed for 4,000 years. Our image is irrelevant to the rest of the world. Our total annihilation is the only thing that is relevant. The Arabic nations will NOT begin to support us.

Oppression is bad, right? Why would you want to start sponsoring it?
Anyway, by maintaining the support of the civilized world (read- the UN as long as the US continues to twist its arm) Israel can deter the Arab world from attacking. "Your" image is not irrelevant to the rest of the world, as it determines the amount of support and aid that your receive, as well as how other nations treat you. Even you should agree that if the Arab nations could be convinced to leave Israel alone it would be better than the constant conflict we have now.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

I love how you ignores millennia of oppression and decades of hatred with some liberal nonsense about peace. For the last time, your argument contradicts history.

Liberal = nonsense? What? The desire to reduce the human death toll = nonsense? What? Think before you spew this hatred. While MC's argument may place unwarranted trust in Hamas's rationality his argument has been supported by facts and a ground level understanding of the situation, not by propaganda fed to the American public by Fox news and an irrational desire for war. Killing Palestinians won't make up for the wrongs against the Jewish people.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Bullshit. Do you even know ANYTHING about the country you live in? Because I sure as hell do. And in the grand scheme of things it's no difference. The fact that you have to try and nitpick to find something tells it all.

Wait... What?

So, you know more about Israel than someone who lives there? Kewl. I know more about China than the Chinese do. I also know more about Taiwan than the Taiwanese, Australia than the Australians and Ethiopia than the Ethiopians. None of you care though. My personal knowledge/intelligence is irrelevant (as is yours). The only information pertinent to this debate is the facts, and with Google we are all just as 'knowledgeable' as you, Oh Fearless Mideast Armchair General.

Put simply: No one cares what you know. Talk in facts or not at all.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Master CrimzonI think the death of the entire Palestinian nation is a FAR too high a cost for us to pay in order to achieve peace. It's unfair and it's anti-humanitarian. War is exactly the time to maintain moral standards and not degenerate to the average terrorist's level.

I guess you prefer the death of Israel then. Doubt you'd have any objections the way you're going.
[/quote]
According to you, Israel must give up its moral standards or perish. This is a false dilemma and a logical fallacy.

If a country must abandon its most basic, fundamental beliefs to survive- has it? If they betray their reasons for existence then why continue to fight? There is a reason that the US stands behind Israel- if they leave the path of civilized existence to exterminate all possible threats then they will have destroyed their original mandate.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Egypt got the point as far as seeing the military might of Israel. Now they see that same military might backed up by the most powerful military in history (us), so credit to them for not being completely incompetent and raising hell.

Israel must give Palestine the same chance it gave Egypt- peaceful coexistence from both sides. (Assuming of course that Hamas is removed from power. They are the problem in this situation. (I don't really think Israel should negotiate until Hamas gets booted completely. But that's just me.)

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Hamas and other radical fundamentalists do NOT understand logic, so they will continue to do what they always do and we can either continue to fight them and "wipe the floor" with them, or we can go your route and try to make peace while they laugh at our weakness and kill more of us. Spare me.

Peace with Palestine and other Arab Nations =/= Hamas's continued hegemony over that region. Hamas will be removed from office- whether by election or by force is now irrelevant. When they are out of office peace must be given a chance.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Rofl. They'll offer a ceasefire when they're facing complete annihilation, and that's a MAYBE. Or it looks like they'll go down fighting. Either way I'm glad you're not in the Israeli Army or have any influence over that country. Stick to the UN.

If Hamas pleads for a cease fire then the assault should stop to allow diplomacy to take place. Israel can always start shelling the strip again if the talks deteriorate; Peace isn't an irrevocable situation. Israel should allow for the possibility of a peaceful conclusion to this conflict. This would be the same thing as a peaceful removal of Hamas from office. Hamas & the war now go hand in hand.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

And if you adopt YOUR mentality, then you will get trampled upon while you babble incessantly about "peace". At least my logic is not only realistic, but it works. I won't go as far as saying things will never change, but it is highly unlikely that Jews and radical Islamists will EVER see eye to eye. So please stop being an idealist in a time where it's not only unnecessary, but plain illogical.

How dare you tell someone to stop being an idealist! Idealism is the only way significant change is ever made. Would you tell MLK (jr) to stop being an idealist because it was unlikely that the Civil Rights struggle would be over in his time? Would you tell Rosa Parks to be a pragmatist so that she wouldn't have to go to jail? No? Then why isn't change possible now? We've got Obama. He's got "cred" with the rest of the world that the US has lacked for (about 8) years. Now seems as good a time as any to try for an improvement.

Anyway- Jews and radical Islamists don't have to see eye to eye- the radicals (on both sides) just need to be removed from power.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Unjust holocaust my ass. I have not once seen you defend Israel against the Middle East onslaught for the past 60 years. But when Israel becomes the aggressor, we get this typical leftist bullshit. That kind of nonsense is the reason why American society is going down the shitter.

He isn't in American society. The Fox news soundbites aren't aimed at Israeli's sonny boy. Bill o'Reilly isn't spinning for/against Middle easterners (except to call them "terrists."😉 This "leftist [expletive]" is the best hope for peace and a normal life for thousands of people in the Holy land. They really don't need you telling them to all go die; they're killing each other well enough already. They need us to tell them to *stop.*

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

And we will continue to fight until we no longer have to.

Why not make that day come even sooner?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

And the last thing radical fundamentalists want is peace. What you've just said basically goes against all of the radical mentality in the middle east. Seriously, if you're not a Hamas apologist, then you're definitely a left wing nutcase.

I like how you equated "left wing nutcase" with Hamas apologist, as though the two were merely gradations on a scale. It might've been clever if Fox hadn't been doing this for years.

The religious fundies should be removed from office and talks commenced. Your war mongering rhetoric scares me. Be sure to remember that all of the numbers have lives behind them. Is it worth continued strife to get back at the Palestinians? Is revenge worth Israel's moral superiority?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Your 'logic' is deteriorating. I suggest that you take a chill pill and come back with a little bit less enthusiasm and a little more reason.

Prove it. I am coming in with reason.

[/b]

Everyone is different, but I can't see how that was his 'angle.' MC wasn't trying to discredit Israel's right to have a state. (The idea is laughable- he lives there.) He was reminding you that the Palestinians also have a right to a sovereign state.

I didn't say they didn't.

Pot calling the kettle black much? You don't have the right to determine what is and is not logical, as you clearly don't have a great handle on that concept yourself. Also: ROFL @ "[Y]ou're not a Jew/Israeli." MC does not appear to be a Jew (his disdain towards Knightfall implied that he isn't theistic at all) but that does not prevent one from being an Israeli (one who lives in Israel).

Predictable. The multicultural argument. "Who are you to tell me what's logical and what isn't. What's logical to you isn't logical to me". This the #1 bullshit argument in a situation like this. After reading that, you have no right to even post in this thread anymore. And I am a Jew/Israeli, so much for common sense. Try again.

[/b]

Oppression is bad, right? Why would you want to start sponsoring it?
Anyway, by maintaining the support of the civilized world (read- the UN as long as the US continues to twist its arm) Israel can deter the Arab world from attacking. "Your" image is not irrelevant to the rest of the world, as it determines the amount of support and aid that your receive, as well as how other nations treat you. Even you should agree that if the Arab nations could be convinced to leave Israel alone it would be better than the constant conflict we have now.

Really? So I ask YOU now. What in the past 60 years tells you that Arab nations can be convinced to leave Israel alone?

Liberal = nonsense? What? The desire to reduce the human death toll = nonsense? What? Think before you spew this hatred. While MC's argument may place unwarranted trust in Hamas's rationality his argument has been supported by facts and a ground level understanding of the situation, not by propaganda fed to the American public by Fox news and an irrational desire for war. Killing Palestinians won't make up for the wrongs against the Jewish people.

No, liberal nonsense stems from his defending the innocent Palestinians, while not once bringing up the oppression of Israel the past 60 years. I wonder if you've heard the quote, "those who are merciful to the cruel, are cruel to the merciful". It applies.
ROFL@fox news. Right, stick with cnn. MC hasn't brought in facts. Facts and history would go against him. And never did I state that killing Palestinians was right.

So, you know more about Israel than someone who lives there? Kewl. I know more about China than the Chinese do. I also know more about Taiwan than the Taiwanese, Australia than the Australians and Ethiopia than the Ethiopians. None of you care though. My personal knowledge/intelligence is irrelevant (as is yours). The only information pertinent to this debate is the facts, and with Google we are all just as 'knowledgeable' as you, Oh Fearless Mideast Armchair General.

Seeing as how I know plenty of people who live in Israel, and not one of them share MC's view, yes, I would think his views are a little skewed as a result of his ideals.

I guess you prefer the death of Israel then. Doubt you'd have any objections the way you're going.
[/quote]
According to you, Israel must give up its moral standards or perish. This is a false dilemma and a logical fallacy.[/quote]
Nope, Israel must fight fire with fire. Notice how Israel is never the aggressor, or do they not teach you that on CNN?

If a country must abandon its most basic, fundamental beliefs to survive- has it? If they betray their reasons for existence then why continue to fight? There is a reason that the US stands behind Israel- if they leave the path of civilized existence to exterminate all possible threats then they will have destroyed their original mandate.

Except Israel isn't abandoning anything. They are fighting for themselves. There are casualties in a war, unwanted casualties such as innocent Palestinians, but if Israel doesn't fight, Hamas will continue to. Notice the one sided argument on your part.

[/b]
Israel must give Palestine the same chance it gave Egypt- peaceful coexistence from both sides. (Assuming of course that Hamas is removed from power. They are the problem in this situation. (I don't really think Israel should negotiate until Hamas gets booted completely. But that's just me.)[/quote
I agree with this.

[quote][/b]
Peace with Palestine and other Arab Nations =/= Hamas's continued hegemony over that region. Hamas will be removed from office- whether by election or by force is now irrelevant. When they are out of office peace must be given a chance.


If this happens, I agree with it.

[/b]
If Hamas pleads for a cease fire then the assault should stop to allow diplomacy to take place. Israel can always start shelling the strip again if the talks deteriorate; Peace isn't an irrevocable situation. Israel should allow for the possibility of a peaceful conclusion to this conflict. This would be the same thing as a peaceful removal of Hamas from office. Hamas & the war now go hand in hand.

The problem is we've seen it time and time again. It'll come back full circle if Israel allows for diplomacy to take place.

[/b]
How dare you tell someone to stop being an idealist! Idealism is the only way significant change is ever made. Would you tell MLK (jr) to stop being an idealist because it was unlikely that the Civil Rights struggle would be over in his time? Would you tell Rosa Parks to be a pragmatist so that she wouldn't have to go to jail? No? Then why isn't change possible now? We've got Obama. He's got "cred" with the rest of the world that the US has lacked for (about 8) years. Now seems as good a time as any to try for an improvement.

I would tell someone to stop being in idealist if they ignore realism. And lets be honest here, what cred does Obama have? How about the fact that everyone wanted Bush out of office so badly. Please tell me the "credit" O'bama has? I think he's young and intelligent and has potential but I won't sit here and talk about his invisible "credit".

Anyway- Jews and radical Islamists don't have to see eye to eye- the radicals (on both sides) just need to be removed from power.

How long have we been trying?

[/b]

He isn't in American society. The Fox news soundbites aren't aimed at Israeli's sonny boy. Bill o'Reilly isn't spinning for/against Middle easterners (except to call them "terrists."😉 This "leftist [expletive]" is the best hope for peace and a normal life for thousands of people in the Holy land. They really don't need you telling them to all go die; they're killing each other well enough already. They need us to tell them to *stop.*

This leftist nonsense is the reason Israel keeps getting attacked.

I like how you equated "left wing nutcase" with Hamas apologist, as though the two were merely gradations on a scale. It might've been clever if Fox hadn't been doing this for years.

I've heard worse from CNN.

The religious fundies should be removed from office and talks commenced. Your war mongering rhetoric scares me. Be sure to remember that all of the numbers have lives behind them. Is it worth continued strife to get back at the Palestinians? Is revenge worth Israel's moral superiority? [/B]

Rofl, I was waiting for the stereotypical liberal war mongering accusations. Welcome to reality. What is worth is Israel living in peace and not looking over their shoulders.

I feel for you REX.

I really, honestly, do.

I don't know how he keeps his sanity.

Lol, I never said we were blameless Red.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Hamas apologist? I'm the dude getting bombed by them. I can't be a Hamas apologist. Hell, if Hamas could be destroyed without killing thousands of civilians, I'd be all for it.

Regardless, turning them into unreasonable monsters without a shred of human rationality is bullshit. If a suitable enough deal is done, they have to react somehow; probably peacefully. Continuing to fire missiles at us simply doesn't work, and they are going to understand this.

Aside from that, don't pretend the point of this war is to 'liberate Palestine'. Also, Hamas was, as funny as it sounds, democratically elected in 2006 by the Palestinian people. They're the rule of the majority; hell, if they're so weak at the moment and the Palestinian people want them gone, than they could arrange a coup and replace Hamas with a different government. It's up to what they want, I suppose. Y'see, replacing the government of a country with a different, installed one simply doesn't work (as proven by Iraq), and simply overthrowing Hamas will result in anarchy and the potential rise of yet another uber-militaristic organization.

Wanting peace isn't a sign of weakness, either. It's a sign of increased rationality and the ability to actually come to peaceful negotiations. Hamas CAN'T be destroyed. Even if we destroy it, it's just going to be used as propaganda and more terrorist fundamentalist organizations will rise, once again feeding the cycle of war and terrorism. That's why diplomacy is really the most 'permanent' solution, even if the results aren't perfect.

What exactly are the ramifications of a tense peace? That's what we have with Egypt, and a tense peace is FAR better than eternal war, which is what the alternative is. Substantiate what you think will be the damages of having a tense peace with Hamas.

Edit: Damn, Nemesis beat me to the whole election angle.

And I know, wanting peace is a sign of rationality and being reasonable. But the potential risk of Hamas betraying the peace is a fruitless effort on the whole affair. If Hamas back stabs Israel after a peace deal, the whole damn thing will start anew. Prefer to now just go in and get 'em. Our difference of preferences is that I'm too worried about the loss of life. Unnecessary loss yeah, there's no need for massacres. But the 1000 dead right now? I frankly won't lose sleep.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Predictable. The multicultural argument. "Who are you to tell me what's logical and what isn't. What's logical to you isn't logical to me". This the #1 bullshit argument in a situation like this. After reading that, you have no right to even post in this thread anymore. And I am a Jew/Israeli, so much for common sense. Try again.

You don't live in Israel. Therefore, you are not fully aware of the situation yourself; you have no right to pretend be an objective judge of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. You rely on information given from fallible, and potentially biased, sources.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Really? So I ask YOU now. What in the past 60 years tells you that Arab nations can be convinced to leave Israel alone?

Egypt? Jordan? Works perfectly well. If we keep this mentality of the impossibility of peace, we really will never achieve peace, and be doomed to live in a state of war forever. You understand, making actual motions towards peace has been repeatedly displayed, in history, to work far better than simply acting as a constant aggressor.

What? Do you think we could have simply beaten any of these countries into submission? Of course not. Extremists use these deaths not as reason to fear Israel, but rather more and more reasons to hate it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, liberal nonsense stems from his defending the innocent Palestinians, while not once bringing up the oppression of Israel the past 60 years. I wonder if you've heard the quote, "those who are merciful to the cruel, are cruel to the merciful". It applies.

Quote is bullshit. It would apply if we and the Palestinians were equally powerful, but now? No way. Thing is, the Palestinians are infinitely weaker than we are; we're judged by the way we treat our inferiors, after all.

Yeah, Israel has been oppressed; by radical terrorists. Not the general populace. Do these people deserve all to be punished for the actions of their leaders? I think not. They're just as innocent as the people in Israel getting bombed by Hamas. I would have thought that living under constant oppression would have brought compassion instead of hatred.

Notice how war spews only more hatred again, eh?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ROFL@fox news. Right, stick with cnn. MC hasn't brought in facts. Facts and history would go against him. And never did I state that killing Palestinians was right.

Okay. Give me logical substantiation as to when blunt military power ever resolved a conflict entirely. You understand, it doesn't work. If we think that we are doomed to live in a state of war forever, we'll really be. Diplomacy is the way to break out of this cycle, and we don't try, we'll honestly never know. It's been shown to work in the past, far more effectively than simply destroying our enemies.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Seeing as how I know plenty of people who live in Israel, and not one of them share MC's view, yes, I would think his views are a little skewed as a result of his ideals.

Do you know any leftists who live in Israel? The people who lose their moral standards and good nature in a crisis prove humanity's natural evil more than anything.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Nope, Israel must fight fire with fire. Notice how Israel is never the aggressor, or do they not teach you that on CNN?

Israel may never truly be the aggressor, but it always attacks with vastly disproportionate force. They might have 'started it', but that doesn't mean we have a justification for the utter destruction of the Gaza strip.

You mean we should turn into terrorists too? Fight fire with fire? Our moral standards is what separates us from them. It's the only way not to become just as evil as they are, and maintain our position as the 'good' country.

Say, if someone on the street attacked you with a knife or something. Thankfully, you have a gun, but before you can pull it out, you get stabbed in the shoulder. That's gonna leave a mark. Now, you pull out the gun and he immediately surrenders. Will you shoot him and kill him, resulting in a possibly unnecessary fatality? Or will you reason with him, and avoid the loss of human life?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except Israel isn't abandoning anything. They are fighting for themselves. There are casualties in a war, unwanted casualties such as innocent Palestinians, but if Israel doesn't fight, Hamas will continue to. Notice the one sided argument on your part.

We fought already, and that was entirely justified. But we've done enough. The moment there are even the smallest signs of a possible peaceful resolution, we should take it and stop the cycle of deaths and endless destruction.

We have a right to defend ourselves. But I believe that continuing past our current point is 'excessive force', so to speak. Will Hamas continue blowing up rockets at us? I don't think so, if we negotiate wisely, make enough compromises, enlist international support, and still maintain subtle military pressure. It's worth the risk. This is to Tangible, too; without risks, there is no chance for development and actual change. Hell, even if they eventually break a peace agreement and attack us, the world may actually understand our issues and we gain international support, which is always good.

Idealism and risk-taking is the only way to make a difference. We may live in eternal conflict, but even so, why endorse it? Why not make an effort towards stopping it? War certainly isn't going to do it, so maybe diplomacy is the way to minimize the number of deaths.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The problem is we've seen it time and time again. It'll come back full circle if Israel allows for diplomacy to take place.

What? Look, you want an example as how this war caused more aggression?

You'd be aware of the war we launched on Lebanon a bunch of years ago. You'd also be aware that war was relatively catastrophic, resulted in the mass murder of civilians and soldiers, etc. However, it served its purpose and Hezbollah stopped firing rockets at us. Until we launched an offensive on Gaza. In protest to this, now even more rockets are being blown up at us. Look at how useful war is! Diplomacy is the only way to break out of this cycle.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I would tell someone to stop being in idealist if they ignore realism. And lets be honest here, what cred does Obama have? How about the fact that everyone wanted Bush out of office so badly. Please tell me the "credit" O'bama has? I think he's young and intelligent and has potential but I won't sit here and talk about his invisible "credit".

Obama is massively popular in Europe, and Palestinians like him, too, due to his liberal point of view.

How am I not being a 'realist'? I've given a logical idea and have shown that diplomacy, instead of military force, have been shown to work in the past. You simply babbled about how we'll always be hated and we'll always be in war without giving logical substantiation as to why we can't break out of this cycle.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This leftist nonsense is the reason Israel keeps getting attacked.

This leftist nonsense is also what keeps us from becoming an evil country based on terrorism and the mass murder of innocents, when peace can- and should- be explored as a viable option when it presents itself, like now. Peace can work; it's been shown to, anyways. Hamas can be reasoned with. If they're looking for a ceasefire, this is essential proof of it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Rofl, I was waiting for the stereotypical liberal war mongering accusations. Welcome to reality. What is worth is Israel living in peace and not looking over their shoulders.

I'd rather live my life in permanent fear and edginess, even if this includes rockets being blown up at me 24/7, than commit a holocaust based on the actions of a few radicals. Reality isn't always war, you know. The only reason war still continues is because there will always be people who subconsciously love it, who seek it, who attempt to start it and look at diplomacy as something cowardly and ineffective.

You should introduce yourself to the reality of what is actually going on; endless oppression and attacks on both sides leads to the genocide of thousands of people. Peace will never be achieved with radicals if we simply blow them up; it will only bring more radicals with more reason to hate us. If there's even a .5% diplomacy can work, I'll take it; we can't lose through it, after all.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
You don't live in Israel. Therefore, you are not fully aware of the situation yourself; you have no right to pretend be an objective judge of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. You rely on information given from fallible, and potentially biased, sources.

Yes, my israeli soldier friends, my Yeshiva friends, are all fallible and biased sources. And you're the objective one. That makes a lot of sense.

Egypt? Jordan? Works perfectly well. If we keep this mentality of the impossibility of peace, we really will never achieve peace, and be doomed to live in a state of war forever. You understand, making actual motions towards peace has been repeatedly displayed, in history, to work far better than simply acting as a constant aggressor.

Nobody said anything about the impossibility of peace. The idea that it won't happen until the radical fundamentalists are not in power, is FACT.

What? Do you think we could have simply beaten any of these countries into submission? Of course not. Extremists use these deaths not as reason to fear Israel, but rather more and more reasons to hate it.

So if we don't fight, they'll take over.

Quote is bullshit. It would apply if we and the Palestinians were equally powerful, but now? No way. Thing is, the Palestinians are infinitely weaker than we are; we're judged by the way we treat our inferiors, after all.

Except we treat the Palestinians that we deem a threat to us, the way they deserve to be treated.

Yeah, Israel has been oppressed; by radical terrorists. Not the general populace. Do these people deserve all to be punished for the actions of their leaders? I think not. They're just as innocent as the people in Israel getting bombed by Hamas. I would have thought that living under constant oppression would have brought compassion instead of hatred.

Notice how war spews only more hatred again, eh?


Notice how it's easy for you to sit back and judge the situation, without realizing that in war there are casualties, and sometimes unnecessary casualties. You would have rather us done nothing against Hamas, and proposed a truce that would not be possible without the threat of military action, or military action itself.

Okay. Give me logical substantiation as to when blunt military power ever resolved a conflict entirely. You understand, it doesn't work. If we think that we are doomed to live in a state of war forever, we'll really be. Diplomacy is the way to break out of this cycle, and we don't try, we'll honestly never know. It's been shown to work in the past, far more effectively than simply destroying our enemies.

Diplomacy only works when Israel has shown its military might. Diplomacy by itself will NEVER work with radical fundamentalists. Only when they know they've been beaten would they even consider some kind of truce.

Do you know any leftists who live in Israel? The people who lose their moral standards and good nature in a crisis prove humanity's natural evil more than anything.

I think everything Israel has done has been in good faith. They have not lost any of their moral standards or good nature, they are defending themselves against this constant threat.

Israel may never truly be the aggressor, but it always attacks with vastly disproportionate force. They might have 'started it', but that doesn't mean we have a justification for the utter destruction of the Gaza strip.

I guess suicide bombs aren't disproportionate are they? I guess one person killing 50 isn't disproportionate. Because they started it, we feel the need to finish it to the point where they will agree to a truce, or at least realize they cannot win.

You mean we should turn into terrorists too? Fight fire with fire? Our moral standards is what separates us from them. It's the only way not to become just as evil as they are, and maintain our position as the 'good' country.

No, we should fight them. Not turn into them. What we are doing is fighting them to the best of our abilities, trying to minimize the civilian casualties.

Say, if someone on the street attacked you with a knife or something. Thankfully, you have a gun, but before you can pull it out, you get stabbed in the shoulder. That's gonna leave a mark. Now, you pull out the gun and he immediately surrenders. Will you shoot him and kill him, resulting in a possibly unnecessary fatality? Or will you reason with him, and avoid the loss of human life?

This is different than real world terrorist organizations who would rather go down fighting than practice some civility and participate in a truce.

We fought already, and that was entirely justified. But we've done enough. The moment there are even the smallest signs of a possible peaceful resolution, we should take it and stop the cycle of deaths and endless destruction.

Get rid of the radical fundamentalists in power and there's a chance. As long as they're still there, there's very little chance. Hell, Bin Laden just urged Jihad on Israel. When will you wake up and realize we have to try and exterminate these radicals before they do it to us.

Idealism and risk-taking is the only way to make a difference. We may live in eternal conflict, but even so, why endorse it? Why not make an effort towards stopping it? War certainly isn't going to do it, so maybe diplomacy is the way to minimize the number of deaths.

Again, when in the past 6 decades have the radical fundamentalists shown any signs of logic, or diplomacy? Their goal, their ONLY goal is to wipe us off the map.

You'd be aware of the war we launched on Lebanon a bunch of years ago. You'd also be aware that war was relatively catastrophic, resulted in the mass murder of civilians and soldiers, etc. However, it served its purpose and Hezbollah stopped firing rockets at us. Until we launched an offensive on Gaza. In protest to this, now even more rockets are being blown up at us. Look at how useful war is! Diplomacy is the only way to break out of this cycle.

Diplomacy is impossible with radicals leading the way.

Obama is massively popular in Europe, and Palestinians like him, too, due to his liberal point of view.

So what, liberalism is a cancer spreading in America, yet the majority of people are involved in it because it involves making easier decisions and people feel better about themselves. Just because it's the majority, you feel it's right?

This leftist nonsense is also what keeps us from becoming an evil country based on terrorism and the mass murder of innocents, when peace can- and should- be explored as a viable option when it presents itself, like now. Peace can work; it's been shown to, anyways. Hamas can be reasoned with. If they're looking for a ceasefire, this is essential proof of it

The leftist nonsense keeps us weak, and the subject of ridicule. I would rather be right and tone it down a bit than be on the left and crank it up.

I'd rather live my life in permanent fear and edginess, even if this includes rockets being blown up at me 24/7, than commit a holocaust based on the actions of a few radicals. Reality isn't always war, you know. The only reason war still continues is because there will always be people who subconsciously love it, who seek it, who attempt to start it and look at diplomacy as something cowardly and ineffective.

Unfortunately Israel has been living in fear since it became a country and that is no longer enough.

You should introduce yourself to the reality of what is actually going on; endless oppression and attacks on both sides leads to the genocide of thousands of people. Peace will never be achieved with radicals if we simply blow them up; it will only bring more radicals with more reason to hate us. If there's even a .5% diplomacy can work, I'll take it; we can't lose through it, after all.

There have been no oppressive attacks by Israel. When we retaliated, we killed innocents accidentally. Israel isn't proud of but look at those scumbags in Gaza, using children as human shields. They deserve death.

yo Darth sexy wazzup. remember when i used to annoy the hell outa you?

Anyway hi, haven't talked to you in forever :/

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
I feel for you REX.

I really, honestly, do.

It's not as bad as it looks. They just need to know that they can't get away with everything in there.

Originally posted by Captain REX
It's not as bad as it looks. They just need to know that they can't get away with everything in there.
Wait, who are you talking about again?

Comic Versus.

And you guys should probably look at this before it gets taken down. Battlefront 3 FTW.

Looks badass.

It probably will be, if it ever gets released.

Damn that looks good.