The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, if what I heard is true and they did ask for a ceasefire, it's a step in the right direction. I honestly don't think that Hamas can go through this sort of assault and simply continue to attack us, especially with their smuggling tunnels destroyed. I'd rather live in a state of constant alert (and I know what that's like) than destroy an entire population.

And I still believe that Hamas' reason may increase now.

Did you miss the part when I mentioned that I support Israel's military attack? I also had a debate with some "Israel = evil" people in the General Discussion forum. I just think we've done enough. Total holocaust for the Palestinian people is unnecessary.

That's what we've done so far. There's a point, however, that morally broken turns into ****ing nuts. If we destroy Gaza, you have no idea what the ramifications will be.

Soldiers willingly risk their lives. That's the difference between them and civilians who are unfortunate enough to be in a government that endorses terror, fear, and non-stop propaganda.

Impossible; Hamas has them under their complete domination. A coup simply won't work. These are people who are trapped in a religiou war against their will. It's not their fault; it's Hamas'.

You mean the kids who are raised on propaganda, lies, and religious extremism? It's not their damn fault.

You're a heartless bastard. 🙁

Seriously, though, I guess I just care too much. Collateral damage is inevitable in war, but that doesn't mean we should revel in it and don't do everything in power to stop it.

Autokrat, even radicals have a brain. They won't risk another war. Also, Japan would have caved to the U.S assault without the usage of the atomic bombs, IMO.

But it seemed incredibly unlikely at the time that Japan would fold. Their troops had fought to the death and committed suicide over worthless rocks in the South Pacific (Guadalcanal being a great example). 1/3 of the Japanese civilians of Guam threw themselves over the cliffs. And these were just little dots in the Emperor's lands, imagine Japan itself! The land that spawned the master race destined to rule the world, the home of the two gods whose direct descendant ruled their empire? In the minds of soldiers, leaders and military analysts alike, an invasion of the Japanese homeland would have yielded the deaths of millions of G.I.'s and the possible destruction of the Japanese people. It's simple numbers, an invasion will have more. Lesser of two evils.

That isn't to say that the 300,000 dead was a GOOD thing, Lord no. But statistically speaking, it was better.

Oh wait, I forgot to ask: In light of the fact that Hamas hides behind civilians, what would you reccomend to the IDF as to how to seek out and and kill the Hamas militants and also avoid civilian casuatlies? And again, I do NOT advocate genocide.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Fair enough, you have a good soul (Matrix quote).

Thank you, sir.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

But it seemed incredibly unlikely at the time that Japan would fold. Their troops had fought to the death and committed suicide over worthless rocks in the South Pacific (Guadalcanal being a great example). 1/3 of the Japanese civilians of Guam threw themselves over the cliffs. And these were just little dots in the Emperor's lands, imagine Japan itself! The land that spawned the master race destined to rule the world, the home of the two gods whose direct descendant ruled their empire? In the minds of soldiers, leaders and military analysts alike, an invasion of the Japanese homeland would have yielded the deaths of millions of G.I.'s and the possible destruction of the Japanese people. It's simple numbers, an invasion will have more. Lesser of two evils.

That isn't to say that the 300,000 dead was a GOOD thing, Lord no. But statistically speaking, it was better.

Well, it's really a matter of history, but from the information I've gathered, Japan was completely out of resources at that point and was already the point of surrender. One atomic bomb mayyy have been necessary, and that's a stretch in my opinion, but a second one? Completely, completely pointless.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh wait, I forgot to ask: In light of the fact that Hamas hides behind civilians, what would you reccomend to the IDF as to how to seek out and and kill the Hamas militants and also avoid civilian casuatlies? And again, I do NOT advocate genocide.

Thing is, I don't know. There isn't a conclusive solution, and I believe we've done absolutely everything within our power to minimize civilian casualties during this assault. That's why I don't think this attack was a bad idea.

I just think that our attack served its purpose already, and we should pull out in order to avoid more civilian deaths and engage on more peaceful terms.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, it's really a matter of history, but from the information I've gathered, Japan was completely out of resources at that point and was already the point of surrender. One atomic bomb mayyy have been necessary, and that's a stretch in my opinion, but a second one? Completely, completely pointless.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Thing is, I don't know. There isn't a conclusive solution, and I believe we've done absolutely everything within our power to minimize civilian casualties during this assault. That's why I don't think this attack was a bad idea.

I just think that our attack served its purpose already, and we should pull out in order to avoid more civilian deaths and engage on more peaceful terms.

I'm all for a peace agreement, but Israel will have to either occupy a Hamas-governed Gaza, or destroy Hamas and withdraw leaving the region in a state of disarray.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh yeah in retrospect, definitely. I really don't blame the Americans though; after the first bomb the Japanese gov't began conjuring up their own peace deals but for some reason didn't tell the Americans that, so naturally they thought the Japanese were just being stubborn asses.

Well, that's a debate for a different time. It's also irrelevant now.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That would prevent civilian deaths, but if Hamas is allowed continued free reign over Gaza, then the whole operation will have been in vain. I don't know about you, but I have no reason to trust Hamas should they "promise" to stop the missile attacks and abductions of soldiers. They spent a lot on building, what was it? 50 miles of tunnels beneath the Strip, running border to border, sounds like the preparations of some dedicated militants.

I'm all for a peace agreement, but Israel will have to either occupy a Hamas-governed Gaza, or destroy Hamas and withdraw leaving the region in a state of disarray.

Now, granted, there possibility exists that they will not keep their promise; but still, I'm certain this war can lead to at least a tentative truce, which is better for nothing. The rockets are bound to stop once U.N intervention comes in; Hamas will cave under the pressure of the whole world, at least in that department.

Crimzon look, I know you're a positive person but again, there has been no indication in the past 50 years that Hamas or ANY Middle Eastern organization wants to deal with Israel peacefully. What they want is for Israel to cease to exist, and that is the ONLY thing they want. They will continue to try and achieve their goal in any way shape and form. We are lucky that Israel has such a dominant military and that they are backed up by America. This is why I didn't want a democrat in the White House, especially Obama. We will see what he does with Israel.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Crimzon look, I know you're a positive person but again, there has been no indication in the past 50 years that Hamas or ANY Middle Eastern organization wants to deal with Israel peacefully.

Egypt? Major middle Eastern nation we have peace with. Guess what? We didn't achieve peace through military force.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What they want is for Israel to cease to exist, and that is the ONLY thing they want. They will continue to try and achieve their goal in any way shape and form. We are lucky that Israel has such a dominant military and that they are backed up by America. This is why I didn't want a democrat in the White House, especially Obama. We will see what he does with Israel.

We almost did achieve peace with the Palestinians one, actually. We might have finished the job, if our prime minister (name of Yitzhak Rabin) wasn't assassinated by a radical conservative who didn't want to make any sort of compensations.

Again, do you honestly think Hamas will continue as usual after they've seen our military power? After their organization is in chaos? We just need to mold this to our advantage. You don't want Obama to be president because his plan involves reasoning with terrorists peacefully?

Again, surrendering Gaza or doing something along the lines of that isn't the same as directly applying military force. Hamas won't be hasty to continue firing rockets, especially as, if they do, that might give us international credit. It's a win-win situation. Either we actually have peace (temporary peace is better than nothing), we save hundreds of innocent lives, or we get international justification for our actions, the moment they see Hamas' true lack of reason.

What DS said ^ And I heard on the news that Obama backed Israel's move whole-heartedly.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon Now, granted, there possibility exists that they will not keep their promise; but still, I'm certain this war can lead to at least a tentative truce, which is better for nothing. The rockets are bound to stop once U.N intervention comes in; Hamas will cave under the pressure of the whole world, at least in that department.

The point is, not enough of the world is condemning it, and Hamas knows that if Israel outright denies aid to Gaza, then the West will condemn Israel in turn. Hamas needs to die, the region must be stabilized and Gaza must not be in the hands of zealots, whether there are peace deals or not.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What DS said ^ And I heard on the news that Obama backed Israel's move whole-heartedly.

But the whole world isn't lambasting Hamas. Its Syrian and Iranian neighbors back it, and much of the rest of the Islamic world either backs it, or like Egypt, denounces both sides. America and Canada I know back Israel, Europe is generally saying "It's so sad that people are suffering" and I can't really remember where the Asian powers stand.

The point is, not enough of the world is condemning it, and Hamas knows that if Israel outright denies aid to Gaza, then the West will condemn Israel in turn. Hamas needs to die, the region must be stabilized and Gaza must not be in the hands of zealots, whether there are peace deals or not.

Well, organized coups in countries (a la Iraq) will probably fail, especially if a new regime is installed forcibly. It does suck that people suffer, yes.

Thing is, if Israel pulls out now, we'll get world recognition for actually stopping the fighting and making the evident motion towards peace. Now that the situation's really known by the whole world, any of Hamas' actions will be closely monitored. If they refuse peace deals- or break 'em- the world will understand their lack of reason and stop condemning Israel for its actions. Again, this is a win-win situation, and making peace should at least be attempted. Hamas needs to die, yeah, but the price is too high, IMO.

Also, this whole idea that 'Hamas will always be unreasonable' is what prevents achieving peace in the first place; this labeling of an organization in a way that prevents any sort of development with relationships. It's similar to the idea of maintaining 'old time' values, just because they've always worked and always have been the same. Attempting to make a change is what should be done, and right after the invasion is the exact time for change, as I displayed (not just optimistically- I mean logically speaking, too). We have to at least try before blowing the **** out of Gaza completely.

I don't think the Asian powers care too much. India and Pakistan are having their own problems, and I think they'd be the only ones to bother looking at it.

anyways, just want to say again that the SWVs. members are a lot easier to handle than ComicVs. Thanks, guys.

We know, we're so good.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
We know, we're so good.

For the most part anyway.

Originally posted by Captain REX
anyways, just want to say again that the SWVs. members are a lot easier to handle than ComicVs. Thanks, guys.

A lot more people post over there it seems though.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, organized coups in countries (a la Iraq) will probably fail, especially if a new regime is installed forcibly. It does suck that people suffer, yes.

Thing is, if Israel pulls out now, we'll get world recognition for actually stopping the fighting and making the evident motion towards peace. Now that the situation's really known by the whole world, any of Hamas' actions will be closely monitored. If they refuse peace deals- or break 'em- the world will understand their lack of reason and stop condemning Israel for its actions. Again, this is a win-win situation, and making peace should at least be attempted. Hamas needs to die, yeah, but the price is too high, IMO.

Also, this whole idea that 'Hamas will always be unreasonable' is what prevents achieving peace in the first place; this labeling of an organization in a way that prevents any sort of development with relationships. It's similar to the idea of maintaining 'old time' values, just because they've always worked and always have been the same. Attempting to make a change is what should be done, and right after the invasion is the exact time for change, as I displayed (not just optimistically- I mean logically speaking, too). We have to at least try before blowing the **** out of Gaza completely.

Some terrorist organizations who execute their own people aren't looking for anything logical, like everlasting peace. Some terrorist organization just wanna watch Israel burn. Hamas is one such organization---I dare someone to argue otherwise. Peace now, more war later. War now, more peace later.

The cost may be high right now to defeat Hamas, but let them live and in time even more will die. If Israel pulls out of Gaza, Hamas will continue their abhorred deeds, OR another group like Fatah will challenge them--which will kill even more Palestinians. And any religious group that gains power through violence...

If Israel destroys Hamas, they have to stay to fill the vacuum.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Don't worry, they are changing it: by blowing the f*ck outta Gaza, lol.

Some terrorist organizations who execute their own people aren't looking for anything logical, like everlasting peace. Some terrorist organization just wanna watch Israel burn. Hamas is one such organization---I dare someone to argue otherwise. Peace now, more war later. War now, more peace later.

The cost may be high right now to defeat Hamas, but let them live and in time even more will die. If Israel pulls out of Gaza, Hamas will continue their abhorred deeds, OR another group like Fatah will challenge them--which will kill even more Palestinians. And any religious group that gains power through violence...

If Israel destroys Hamas, they have to stay to fill the vacuum.

I believe Israel has decided that it's too late to pull out. They decided to finish the job this time, otherwise the same thing is going to happen next time. Some people may criticize Israel's resolve but this is the last logical move left for them.

I'm listening to a Hamas member in Cairo on BBC right now claim that while the President of the Palestinians represents the people, he has no power over Hamas, and that Israel's military actions are completely unnecessary.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm listening to a Hamas member in Cairo on BBC right now claim that while the President of the Palestinians represents the people, he has no power over Hamas, and that Israel's military actions are completely unnecessary.

Right, another moron. Hope they get his ass too.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Don't worry, they are changing it: by blowing the f*ck outta Gaza, lol.

Some terrorist organizations who execute their own people aren't looking for anything logical, like everlasting peace. Some terrorist organization just wanna watch Israel burn. Hamas is one such organization---I dare someone to argue otherwise. Peace now, more war later. War now, more peace later.

The cost may be high right now to defeat Hamas, but let them live and in time even more will die. If Israel pulls out of Gaza, Hamas will continue their abhorred deeds, OR another group like Fatah will challenge them--which will kill even more Palestinians. And any religious group that gains power through violence...

If Israel destroys Hamas, they have to stay to fill the vacuum.

Hamas' general intention isn't just 'war'; it's to reclaim complete control of Israel. Now, if we make some sort of a deal, involving giving them some more land in exchange for them stopping the missile attacks, I believe that they will have to accept the deal, especially in light of Israel's current actions. They aren't going to just constantly refuse after being hit so hard with our military. And, again, the U.N will soften things up and make negotiations less aggressive and tense. Again, if they're begging for a ceasefire (which usually isn't the case), this means that they are now more willing to come to a peaceful resolution.

No. It's IMPOSSIBLE to obliterate Hamas via military force. You understand, they're not a 'legitimate' army, so to speak; they exist directly among the people. And even if we destroy the entirety of Gaza, and therefore kill thousands of civilians along with them, to what good will it be? It will not only set the entire world against us, but it will be suitable reason for more people to become anti-Israeli terrorists, and BLAM. Another Hamas is born. Peace- even a tense peace- is the only answer to stop this.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Hamas' general intention isn't just 'war'; it's to reclaim complete control of Israel. Now, if we make some sort of a deal, involving giving them some more land in exchange for them stopping the missile attacks, I believe that they will have to accept the deal, especially in light of Israel's current actions. They aren't going to just constantly refuse after being hit so hard with our military. And, again, the U.N will soften things up and make negotiations less aggressive and tense. Again, if they're begging for a ceasefire (which usually isn't the case), this means that they are now more willing to come to a peaceful resolution.

No. It's IMPOSSIBLE to obliterate Hamas via military force. You understand, they're not a 'legitimate' army, so to speak; they exist directly among the people. And even if we destroy the entirety of Gaza, and therefore kill thousands of civilians along with them, to what good will it be? It will not only set the entire world against us, but it will be suitable reason for more people to become anti-Israeli terrorists, and BLAM. Another Hamas is born. Peace- even a tense peace- is the only answer to stop this.

Then Israel makes a statement with the utter destruction of the "Visible" members of hamas. Maybe that will convince the hidden members to back down. And I have news for you buddy boy. The whole world is against us. There will NEVER be peace between Israel and radical fundamentalists. EVER.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Hamas' general intention isn't just 'war'; it's to reclaim complete control of Israel. Now, if we make some sort of a deal, involving giving them some more land in exchange for them stopping the missile attacks, I believe that they will have to accept the deal, especially in light of Israel's current actions. They aren't going to just constantly refuse after being hit so hard with our military. And, again, the U.N will soften things up and make negotiations less aggressive and tense. Again, if they're begging for a ceasefire (which usually isn't the case), this means that they are now more willing to come to a peaceful resolution.

No. It's IMPOSSIBLE to obliterate Hamas via military force. You understand, they're not a 'legitimate' army, so to speak; they exist directly among the people. And even if we destroy the entirety of Gaza, and therefore kill thousands of civilians along with them, to what good will it be? It will not only set the entire world against us, but it will be suitable reason for more people to become anti-Israeli terrorists, and BLAM. Another Hamas is born. Peace- even a tense peace- is the only answer to stop this.

I think you may be forgetting history and are dooming yourself to repeat it. Tacitus said "A bad peace is even worse than war" and he is right. No "tense" peace ever turns out favorably to those involved. And if it's tense, then someone got screwed over, is that what you want? Besides being unjust, getting screwed will prompt diehards on either side to speak out and incite retaliation; better to get it over with now, a coup de grâce rather than bleeding both sides for as long as possible. At least then one side can come out actually able to function, and as an Israeli, I'm surprised you don't want it to be your own.

Hamas will be destroyed now or will continue to menace Israel and you dream big if you think the UN has power enough to stop them. Even before the invasion, Gaza wasn't exactly a role model of recovering societies, and under Hamas it never will be. For the good of the Palestinians, they MUST go. They'll deny their people aid, execute and cripple any political opposition, and shield themselves with children---these are not reasonable men, they are not moral men. You be willing to sacrifice your own country, but for the love of God, don't sacrifice the Palestinians just for the sake of peace.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Please explain why we have to give them some more land. They are lucky to have Gaza and to be living in Israel. Why is it that countries like Pakistan do not have to have any Jews in it, but we must allow Arabs in Israel? I support Israel in allowing Arabs to live there peacefully but the radical fundamentalists are ruining it for everybody else. Btw, the UN is, and has been completely useless for the most part.

Why are they 'lucky' to be living in Israel? WE'RE 'lucky' to be living in Israel, actually; they're the ones who occupied it until the U.N gave us a good portion of the land. Gaza, while an effective start, isn't enough to inhabit the rapidly growing numbers of Palestinians. True fairness would be to equally share Israel, and give the Palestinians an actual country. Besides, it's more likely to bring peace. This whole 'Make-no-compromises' philosophy is very narrow.

U.N has been pretty useless, I agree, but it- with the combination of U.S (Obama)- can seriously help in peace negotiations.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Then Israel makes a statement with the utter destruction of the "Visible" members of hamas. Maybe that will convince the hidden members to back down. And I have news for you buddy boy. The whole world is against us. There will NEVER be peace between Israel and radical fundamentalists. EVER.

This is the very idea that gets in the way of peace, you know? The idea that we're a poor, oppressed nation who must fight for our own survival eternally. We've actually destroyed a good amount of Hamas' members. And a ceasefire wish would imply that they're 'backing down', eh?

The whole world is against us because we make it so; we're not destined to live this way forever. We just have to make some painful sacrifices on OUR part.

Tangible- I won't accept the absolute destruction of the Palestinians for anything, even if it means eternal peace. That's unfair. I personally believe that giving them more land, threatening more military action, using the U.N and U.S (to a point), and getting more world wide support is a suitable course of action that can actually lead to peace, rather than staying in the same cycle of hatred forever. I'd rather there be tense peace (it's worked fine with us and Egypt) than eternal war.

And wtf? Now it's about the Palestinians' harm through the Hamas? To the best of my knowledge, Hamas simply hadn't caused -that- much direct damage to the Palestinian people themselves. Sure, it's pretty much a totalitarian regime, but if it works for them, go for it.

Also, if the Palestinians really don't want Hamas in charge, now would be the perfect time for them to make a coup themselves. Fatah may be able to rise to power again- and they're less extreme than Hamas. All in all, though, peace with Hamas is just that; peace.