The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Master Crimzon3,287 pages
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Bullshit. Hamas was doing their thing long before Israel put any kind of pressure on them. If anything, Israel pressured them BECAUSE of what they were doing.

Silly misconception; the Palestinian situation is, in many ways, Israel's fault in the first place. We've placed the Palestinians in their desperate situation of poverty, which gave place for a fanatical group like Hamas to rise up- the Palestinian people needed some way to channel their hatred at Israel, and Hamas provided an effective solution. Really, had we treated the Palestinians fairly from the start and gave them a decent state (Gaza is not, no matter how you put it, a good place to live in), Hamas would never had risen to power and we would live in a better situation.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And sticking to a liberal mindset allows one to be trampled on.

You're confusing liberalism with pacifism. It's not the same thing. I fully endorse military action in case of a true military threat, but to a certain point and however much is necessary. The point is, Hamas isn't a real threat to our country- we aren't fighting for our existence. And therefore, we should use moderation and restraint as far as we can- both in order to achieve a permanent solution to this war and actually make justice. Palestinians are people, too, and you're ignoring that. Have some compassion.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hamas refuses to talk to Israel. Israel responds to Hamas' attacks. It's a two way street, don't act like it's one sided.

But we're stronger, bigger, and with more influence; we're the 'bigger man', and we can, and should, decide the tide of diplomacy. I'm not saying Hamas is begging for diplomacy, but if we gave them a decent proposition with the addition of military pressure, I'm sure that they would listen.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
There is no permanent solution to fundamentalists except for death. That's all they understand.

Oh god. When did just killing our enemies succeed? That's right. Never! Fundamentalism is an idea, and you can't kill and idea, despite what conservatives insist. The destruction of Hamas and the massacre of Gaza's population will only lead to more hatred and suffering.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Here's why the majority of Americans are liberal. Because it doesn't take any kind of thinking. It's so easy to be a liberal. It's so easy to say everyone is equal and what is wrong for one culture is not for another one. The whole concept of multiculturalism makes me sick.

Oh, you don't think everyone is equal and deserves equal rights? You think certain races and traditions are superior to others?

I'll tell you what's easy; turning the world into a 'good guy, bad guy' scenario like conservatives do. Making all sorts of absolutes and turning war into something to be celebrated, and making claims of certain people being superior to one another. That's what's easy, especially if you happen to be the 'superior' race. Conservatism says that whatever a 'good' country does (from a biased and skewed perspective, of course) is justified, because they're the 'good' country, while the other country is evil and deserves to be destroyed through military force. Using brute force to solve problems that can be solved diplomatically never work.

Conservatism is so simple and so easy to understand, it's funny. So easy it is to succumb to pressure and become monsters, and then justify it by claiming you are 'good'. It's all very silly.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The best presidents of this country have been conservatives, whether democratic or republican. I still maintain Regan was #1.

Umm, no. The very idea of conservatism is opposed to change and acceptance, and endorses the 'maintainence of the status quo', because that isn't scary and feels very safe. It's human nature.

Do you think Abraham Lincoln was a conservative? What about FDR? And all the other people who led the Americans through crisises and achieved a better state of life? All liberals. Conservatism is the bane of humanity.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I think this country is less racist than people make it out to be. However, people will use any crutch they can find to justify their inability to be happy or successful about their lives. We have it better than any nation in the world, so racism, while it may be a small issue to this day, is definitely less than it is anywhere else.

Here is another example of how conservatism is so simple; ignore homophobia, racism, and intolerance and then blame it on the people who suffer themselves. It doesn't work like that. The black people who live in slums and are forced to join drug gangs in order to survive? It's not their fault. It's the fault of society for letting that happen and creating a system that favors the stronger, richer, and more powerful men over the poor, who often have shitty lives due to intolerance and prejudice. Conservatives look the other way and ignore it, because conservatism promotes ignoring the people who suffer because they are different and therefore easy to ignore.

The conservative respons to Obama is in itself proof of the extreme racism in America; you can still see and the stereotypes and the racial separation through the U.S. All because of conservatism and the fear of change.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Testament to Obama's abilities, because he's black? Rofl. Way to patronize the black race. Because he's black and became president, it's a testament to his ability. There's more perception of racism than actual racism in this country, sorry to tell you.

Dude. You think Obama had it easy? Being black was certainly a dent in his political career, through no fault of his own, but rather through the fault of the white, conservative society that lives with the idea of their own superiority and dominance. Obama had to overcome this racial separation and prejudice in order to become president, which is a testament to his abilities.

Wow, you must be the first Israeli I've talked to over a Star Wars internet forum that actually blames his own side for a mess the other side could have willingly avoided.

What's your MO?

Most Israelis are right wing nuts. Also, we're not entirely responsible, but we are also to blame for Hamas' rise. Had we treated the Palestinians like human beings in the first place, there would be no place for Hamas to rise.

Yeah true enough. And had the British not booted them out in favour of a Jewish state, the whole mess could have been avoided decades ago.

I don't know if that was sarcasm, but really, the Jewish state couldn't have been somewhere less... conflicted? It really wasn't necessary to give us the 'promised land' and therefore damage tons of people just in order to fulfill our silly, superstitious traditions.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I don't know if that was sarcasm, but really, the Jewish state couldn't have been somewhere less... conflicted? It really wasn't necessary to give us the 'promised land' and therefore damage tons of people just in order to fulfill our silly, superstitious traditions.
I'm not antisemitic, but I agree. Just because it was the Jewish home doesn't mean they should get to evict the Palestinians. Hell, if I was a post-WWII European Jew, I'd demand a slice of Germany.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Silly misconception; the Palestinian situation is, in many ways, Israel's fault in the first place. We've placed the Palestinians in their desperate situation of poverty, which gave place for a fanatical group like Hamas to rise up- the Palestinian people needed some way to channel their hatred at Israel, and Hamas provided an effective solution. Really, had we treated the Palestinians fairly from the start and gave them a decent state (Gaza is not, no matter how you put it, a good place to live in), Hamas would never had risen to power and we would live in a better situation.

Israel's fault? Please, do tell. Explain how we've done anything of the sort to Palestinians? We allow them to live in our country, while we as Jews are not to live in other Middle Eastern countries. Where's your anger against them? You're as one sided as they get, which is ironic considering you live in Israel. The only trouble Israel has had is with the radical fundamentalists, who are supported by a majority of Palestinians. I've not heard you mention anything about Israel being treated fairly or Jews being treated fairly. You call people right winged nuts, I call you a liberal fool.

You're confusing liberalism with pacifism. It's not the same thing. I fully endorse military action in case of a true military threat, but to a certain point and however much is necessary. The point is, Hamas isn't a real threat to our country- we aren't fighting for our existence. And therefore, we should use moderation and restraint as far as we can- both in order to achieve a permanent solution to this war and actually make justice. Palestinians are people, too, and you're ignoring that. Have some compassion.

No, you endorse compassion, plain and simple. Compassion for the aggressors, spite towards the defenders. We aren't fighting for our existence? Please tell Israel that, since they've been fighting for their existence since 1948. You know, being in the center of the middle east doesn't help.

But we're stronger, bigger, and with more influence; we're the 'bigger man', and we can, and should, decide the tide of diplomacy. I'm not saying Hamas is begging for diplomacy, but if we gave them a decent proposition with the addition of military pressure, I'm sure that they would listen.

Except we often DO decide on diplomacy. Our military actions come after the aggressors do not agree with diplomacy, and instead attempt annihilation.

Oh god. When did just killing our enemies succeed? That's right. Never! Fundamentalism is an idea, and you can't kill and idea, despite what conservatives insist. The destruction of Hamas and the massacre of Gaza's population will only lead to more hatred and suffering.

You're right. Lets talk with the fundamentalists. Lets reason with suicide bombers. That's worked so well in the past!

Oh, you don't think everyone is equal and deserves equal rights? You think certain races and traditions are superior to others?

I think everyone is equal in certain aspects. I do not believe in multiculturalism, the idea that something is right in one culture and totally wrong in another. We have universal good and evil. To say otherwise is to admit that nothing is evil, and anything can be justified.

I'll tell you what's easy; turning the world into a 'good guy, bad guy' scenario like conservatives do. Making all sorts of absolutes and turning war into something to be celebrated, and making claims of certain people being superior to one another. That's what's easy, especially if you happen to be the 'superior' race. Conservatism says that whatever a 'good' country does (from a biased and skewed perspective, of course) is justified, because they're the 'good' country, while the other country is evil and deserves to be destroyed through military force. Using brute force to solve problems that can be solved diplomatically never work.

What you described is the realistic scenario and a hell of a lot better than "lets all live together in peace and harmony and better the world" hippie bullshit. And it's NOT a matter of perspective. There you go again with your liberal multicultural bullshit. There are universal rights and wrongs. Diplomacy has NEVER worked against radicals. At least with military might, we can dissuade them a little.

Conservatism is so simple and so easy to understand, it's funny. So easy it is to succumb to pressure and become monsters, and then justify it by claiming you are 'good'. It's all very silly.

Conservatism is easy to understand but hard to practice. It involves making decisions that may be difficult, but necessary. Liberalism is easy as hell. Everyone is equal, people are inherently good, there is no evil, everyone is right. Hilarious bullshit.

Umm, no. The very idea of conservatism is opposed to change and acceptance, and endorses the 'maintainence of the status quo', because that isn't scary and feels very safe. It's human nature.

It's opposed to change and acceptance that threatens the values, morals, and principles of a society.

Do you think Abraham Lincoln was a conservative? What about FDR? And all the other people who led the Americans through crisises and achieved a better state of life? All liberals. Conservatism is the bane of humanity.

Are you familiar with any policies of Lincoln or FDR? I didn't think so. How about Regan? Best president we've ever had in my opinion. Liberalism is what is destroying our society. There's no place for it in this world.

Here is another example of how conservatism is so simple; ignore homophobia, racism, and intolerance and then blame it on the people who suffer themselves. It doesn't work like that. The black people who live in slums and are forced to join drug gangs in order to survive? It's not their fault. It's the fault of society for letting that happen and creating a system that favors the stronger, richer, and more powerful men over the poor, who often have shitty lives due to intolerance and prejudice. Conservatives look the other way and ignore it, because conservatism promotes ignoring the people who suffer because they are different and therefore easy to ignore.

Here's another example of liberalism at its finest. Ignore human beings and instead focus on socioeconomic factors, government, society, etc. ANYTHING other than having individuals take responsibility for themselves. Liberals hate the idea of personal responsibility, and instead blame everything on society, government, and Regan. This is why our society is crumbling, with stupidity like that. Lets patronize minorities some more by NOT treating them as equals! Lets treat them as minorities and blame society for their downfall. You're proving my point to oeasily here.

The conservative respons to Obama is in itself proof of the extreme racism in America; you can still see and the stereotypes and the racial separation through the U.S. All because of conservatism and the fear of change.

It's perceived racism and it's what liberals use to further their agenda.

Dude. You think Obama had it easy? Being black was certainly a dent in his political career, through no fault of his own, but rather through the fault of the white, conservative society that lives with the idea of their own superiority and dominance. Obama had to overcome this racial separation and prejudice in order to become president, which is a testament to his abilities. [/B]

ROFL. Obama had to overcome what? Are you serious? That's hilarious. Bullshit at its finest. Again, great job patronizing minorities, smartass. Liberals are fools.

LOL, 'Liberals are fools'?

Plain generalization, pretty much?

Let me rephrase that. I have never met an intelligent liberal.

Now, that's better.


Let me rephrase that. I have never met an intelligent liberal.
Then either intelligence is subjective or you need to get out more.

It's both.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
It's both.
...

Fine.

Originally posted by Publius II
Then either intelligence is subjective or you need to get out more.

Oh right. Everything is subjective. Intellectual, good, evil, etc. Not everything is subjective sorry to tell you. There are universal right and wrongs. Me not ever meeting an intelligent liberal doesn't mean that I haven't, and my subjective opinion is clouding my judgment. It just means I really haven't met anyone who can back up their views that make any sense.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh right. Everything is subjective. Intellectual, good, evil, etc. Not everything is subjective sorry to tell you.
You know, reading comprehension might help on those LSATs.
Originally posted by Me
Then either intelligence is subjective or you need to get out more.

The implication was clearly that either intelligence is subjective - it really shouldn't be, although people clearly interpret it differently - or that you need to get out more. I was actually suggesting the latter.
There are universal right and wrongs.
Says...?
Me not ever meeting an intelligent liberal doesn't mean that I haven't, and my subjective opinion is clouding my judgment.
You lost me.
It just means I really haven't met anyone who can back up their views that make any sense.
Originally posted by Me
... [Y]ou need to get out more.
Judging most of the progressive world as you have based on what are clearly extraordinarily limited interactions with liberals is pretty damn stupid, not to mention ignorant and offensive. It's irksome that someone your age could have such a narrow view of things.

Narrow view? Really? There are no universal right or wrongs? You call it narrow views, I call it logical views based on reality. What are you going to do, throw some philosophical pseudo intellectual argument at me? I expect this from you Faunus. Care to explain to me where my views are wrong in general, or specifically on the Israel-Hamas issue? And again, please refrain from the philosophical garbage.

You also seem to be implying that if I get out more, I am bound to meet an intelligent liberal. Maybe, maybe not. But I assure you that you won't be the one to "open" up my mind.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Narrow view? Really? There are no universal right or wrongs? You call it narrow views, I call it logical views based on reality.
The idea that there are universal rights and wrongs is based on logic and reality? Right.

And again, who decides what is right and wrong? The Jews? Israel? The conservatives? You?

Either answer the question or concede that you don't have a logical answer.

What are you going to do, throw some philosophical pseudo intellectual argument at me?
Ah, here it is. I was surprised it hadn't popped up in the last five pages.

I expect this from you Faunus. Care to explain to me where my views are wrong in general, or specifically on the Israel-Hamas issue?
I'm fairly certain I didn't say your views were wrong. See, I'm not the one calling conservative beliefs "garbage," or lumping the whole lot into a category of "fools" and "radicals" and "morons" (and "pseudointellectuals"😉.

Again, the reading comprehension; for someone who claims to have a "near-genius IQ" you're remarkably dense.

And again, please refrain from the philosophical garbage.
The concept of "universal rights and wrongs" isn't a philosophy?

You also seem to be implying that if I get out more, I am bound to meet an intelligent liberal. Maybe, maybe not.
That was where the sarcastic bit about intelligence being subjective - to you - would come in. I doubt that you would actually acknowledge an "intelligent liberal" if you met one.

But I assure you that you won't be the one to "open" up my mind.
I'm fairly certain that's impossible by now. Telling the Israeli - the one that lives there, not the one that claims ties to it while sitting in Texas - that he isn't an Israeli, and that he is wrong because your conservative Israeli friends disagree with him was pretty damning, IMO.

Edit: And just to clarify; by "get out more" I meant, literally, get out more. I really don't expect you to learn anything or make sound judgement about different people and different views over the internet; I certainly don't judge all conservatives based on what you say.

Originally posted by Publius II
The idea that there are universal rights and wrongs is based on logic and reality? Right.

And again, who decides what is right and wrong? The Jews? Israel? The conservatives? You?

Either answer the question or concede that you don't have a logical answer.


We as a society, have universal rights and wrongs. Murder is wrong. Rape is wrong. I hear this a lot but only from liberals, "who are you to say what's right or wrong". By your logic, anything can be justified then. I suppose the holocaust wasn't wrong because the Nazis believed it was their right to cleanse the world of Jews. I suppose suicide bombing isn't wrong because radical fundamentalists believe they will go to heaven with 70 virgins.

I'm fairly certain I didn't say your views were wrong. See, I'm not the one calling conservative beliefs "garbage," or lumping the whole lot into a category of "fools" and "radicals" and "morons" (and "pseudointellectuals"😉.

And I never said all liberals' beliefs are "garbage". So much for reading comprehension. I just said that I've yet to meet an intelligent one that can justify his or her beliefs, other than "who are you to ....."

The concept of "universal rights and wrongs" isn't a philosophy?

I didn't mean to bring it out as a concept. It's just the idea that we do have universal rights and wrongs.

That was where the sarcastic bit about intelligence being subjective - to you - would come in. I doubt that you would actually acknowledge an "intelligent liberal" if you met one.

I doubt that you could find me one.

I'm fairly certain that's impossible by now. Telling the Israeli - the one that lives there, not the one that claims ties to it while sitting in Texas - that he isn't an Israeli, and that he is wrong because your conservative Israeli friends disagree with him was pretty damning, IMO.

I said he is wrong because I'm a conservative? So much for logical deduction skills. I explained why I thought he was wrong. And you need to stop with this whole "well you're in Texas and he's in Israel" crap. I know MANY people living in Israel, including Yeshivas and mostly the Israeli army, and as someone who's been to Israel on multiple occasions, I have an idea of the situation there.
Edit: And just to clarify; by "get out more" I meant, literally, get out more. I really don't expect you to learn anything or make sound judgement about different people and different views over the internet; I certainly don't judge all conservatives based on what you say.
Well, excuse me if I am passionate about this conflict. I don't mean to insult MC but in my opinion, his views are ridiculous. That's all.

btw, I've met a lot of right wing fanatics as well, so I'm not exactly on their side. Hell, Nazi Germany was a prime example of right wing fanatics. But I genuinely think that Liberals aren't realistic in their mindsets.

I find true liberals are... iffy. In Canadian politics they're basically clones of the Conservatives but oppose them simply because they're opposition.

The one thing I've learned in regards to Liberals and Conservatives, is that Conservatives are willing to listen to Liberal logic even if they don't agree with it, while Liberals don't even want to listen to the other side. Most, if not all of the liberals I've met blame everything and everybody other than the person who's responsible, for any incident. I guess self hating American would be the right title to call them.