The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Red Nemesis3,287 pages
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
In some ways, things that cannot be explain can be attributed to G-d in a way. For example, we understand the concept and mechanics of the big bang, but who created it? Who triggered it? I'm not saying everything that is unexplainable can be attributed to G-d but I AM saying that a lot of G-d's doing is hard to explain, if even possible. Luckily in my religion, there is a logical explanation for every damn question and situation imaginable.

Why does there have to be a 'someone' to 'trigger' the Big Bang (it is hard to use causality related terminology before time was formed) but there doesn't have to be a 'someone' to 'trigger' or 'cause' God? If the Big Band needs a cause then why doesn't God?

Originally posted by Publius II
What is considered wrong to us isn't necessarily considered wrong to them. That is my stance in a nutshell, and I'll elaborate on it throughout this post.

Alright so I'll reserve my rebuttal for when I see it.

If it can be viewed in more than one light, it is subjective. The Nazis and other similar extremist, genocidal groups (radical Muslims, Hindus, Hutus, etc.) all clearly believe that they are justified in their actions.

Again bro, justifying ones actions doesn't make those actions right. Justification can be logical, or it can be a poor excuse.

The very act of justifying something does make it right to the ones agreeing with or supporting that particular justification. This is why I repeatedly state that nearly all matters relevant to this debate are subjective; just because you and I come to the conclusion that violent persecution of a passive group is wrong doesn't mean that everyone else has to agree.

Ok so again, if radical fundamentalists believe suicide bombing is right, while we believe it's wrong, you leave it at that? Or do you go a step further and state regardless of who agrees, there are rights and there are wrongs.

See the above. I do not agree with Nazi Germany's rationalizations. Clearly, much of the rest of the world didn't, either. That doesn't mean that, to those adherents of Nazi beliefs, their actions weren't justified.

Again, adding a justification for your action doesn't make it right. I think we are both on different wavelengths here. You are saying the idea of even having a justification makes it a gray area matter, instead of a white/black good/evil. I'm saying that adding a justification to something doesn't make it right. The Nazis could claim whatever the hell they wanted, and they would still be wrong according to some universal principles. We cannot sit here and say right and wrong are subjective because again, the world would be chaotic. The fact that there ARE laws, that there ARE rights and wrongs, is why we coexist with other nations.

My mother is a nontraditional Hindu, and my father is sort of a spiritual realist, I suppose. I've been conditioned to adhere to traditional Judeo-Christian moral values by American society.

What's wrong with that?


Nothing?

So there needs to be a God to maintain order and establishment?

No, but I urge you to look at Judaism, even Christianity. The way we act is attributed to the teachings of our Bibles. Even if you don't believe in the Bible, new or old, you can admit that the teachings in there make us into better human beings. Obviously there are other routes to go and G-d bless you if you do, but I just see a lot of people claiming religion doesn't exist because they're either simple minded, they don't see it physically, or they abhor the idea of morals and ethics.

I'm not exactly well-versed in it, so I won't argue this. But in my experience, no organized religion is completely logical. From my understanding, most religions in general can attribute their existence to a need to establish order in accordance to the codes of conduct that pervaded their respective societies at the time, and to explain the inexplicable. Their major tenets (respect, karma, devotion) were developed to maintain that order, and I believe that the basis of those tenets are necessary ideals. I think we can agree there.

This explains some religion. I can tell you that Judaism has lasted for 4 thousand years because we follow everything to the letter and spirit of our laws. Nothing has been changed in those 4 thousand years. In fact, things have been added by the Great Sages. I've read personal development books and they've helped me a lot. But Judaic personal development, which is all encompassing as far as any kind of personal development goes, changed me completely as a person. Am I saying Judaism is the only right path? Not at all, that would be arrogant. I am saying that because of 4,000 years of survival, there's clearly a LOT that's right in the the values and ethics of Jews. The same thing could be said of Christianity, in a way.

What I don't see is how homosexuality or sodomy hurt society.

I don't know whether to give a religious example or a secular one. For instance, before monotheism, people were having sex with animals and with the same sex. I wouldn't attribute this sole phenomenon to the destruction of early civilizations, but I will say it helped. The concept of marriage from its beginnings, have involved 1 man and 1 woman. The ancient Romans and ancient Greeks had a wife to whom they were married and had kids, and a male lover who was used for nothing but sexual pleasure. The idea of homosexuality brings us down to the level of the civilizations of the past. I believe in the sanctity of marriage, which is between 1 man and 1 woman. Another religious concept is the fact that we were created in the image of G-d. We separate ourselves from the animals. When we engage in homosexuality or sodomy, we carry ourselves lower than animals.

I don't believe that I said Israel was the aggressor, either here or earlier on. If I did, I apologize.

You didn't, but I used "victim" in a different context.

My stance was that Israel's retaliation was justified, but it was essentially overkill. I can't condone the death of even a single innocent man, woman, or child, and Israel's "defensive" took hundreds.

I agree but such is the casualty of war. I'm not happy about it but I'm not going to claim that Palestinians have been oppressed by Israelis and this is their justification, because none of that is true.

That said, I cannot condemn it for its actions, either. It is a personal belief of mine that you can't criticize a solution to a problem unless you can come up with a better one, and to be honest I don't know how Israel could have forced Hamas into submission without the loss of a single civilian life. It acted to defend its people and its territory, and that is the right of any nation.

I agree wholeheartedly

I didn't say you did. I was just reminding you that I'm not the type of liberal that you seem to hate.

Nothing about you screams liberal, judged by your views. We hold some of the same beliefs, but I get mine from a somewhat religious background and it appears you get yours from straight logic.

You think it's likely that your beliefs are going to change?

Dennis Prager once said this and I tried to adopt it. If you make an argument that I can't for the life of me refute, I would adopt it until further notice.

I believe that society needs to tear out the roots of the overwhelming majority of crimes; poverty, prejudice [perceived or actual], and poor education. The existence of each of those helps perpetuate the others.

understandable

That said, I certainly believe that individuals are responsible for the crimes they commit. I think the death penalty is stupid, but you don't see me complaining about the existence of jails (although our system is atrociously flawed).

Why is the death penalty stupid? I think we should include some form of corporal punishment as well. This seems to deter crimes in the middle east. Or at least a majority of them.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Why does there have to be a 'someone' to 'trigger' the Big Bang (it is hard to use causality related terminology before time was formed) but there doesn't have to be a 'someone' to 'trigger' or 'cause' God? If the Big Band needs a cause then why doesn't God?

Because G-d is infinite. G-d always was.

Because G-d is infinite. G-d always was.

This is indoctrinated, like it or not but if there is one fact it's this one, everyone is born as an atheïst.

And another fact is that nothing is infinite, everything has a beginning and an ending, how big it may be.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok I agree what what you've said.
Whoa.

Since you said that you're not a typical liberal, why do you consider yourself a liberal, or what views do you share with liberals?
I suppose by being atypical I mean that I consider my ability to justify my beliefs equally as important as the beliefs themselves. If the logic behind a belief is faulty, I shouldn't put stock in it. I don't think that the majority of people think that way.

As to the issues themselves?

Abortion: Liberal/Moderate: I had a long discussion about this with Gideon and a few others several hundred posts back. I am pro-choice, and I think every woman should have the right to abortion, but I absolutely despise those who would treat it as a contraceptive. If you get knocked up because you were too drunk or too stupid to use a condom or a pill, you're an idiot. You won't be denied, but you will be judged.

Affirmative Action: Conservative: It's just a stupid idea.

Death Penalty: Liberal: Another stupid idea.

Economy: Liberal/Moderate: I would probably support a bailout if I knew exactly where the money was going, and I think the current crisis proves that regulation is necessary, but I generally don't mind a well-executed laissez-faire system.

Environment: Very Liberal: Massive problem, massive overhaul necessary to fix it. There are no two ways about this one.

Animal Rights: Very Liberal: This one is certainly easy to attack, but I see value in the preservation of species and in the humane treatment of all animals. I think hunting for sport and bullfighting are barbaric and primitive. That said, the recent bid to have one chimpanzee declared a human was fairly absurd.

Gun Control: Liberal: No militia, no guns. As the oft-repeated quote states, a perfect society is one in which everyone has guns an nobody wants to use them. I say a perfect society is one in which nobody has guns and nobody wants to use them.

Illegal Immigration: Undecided: It needs to stop, now, but the emotional part of me wants to grant amnesty to those that are already here.

Religion: Very Liberal: Keep it separated. 'Nuff said.

Same-sex marriage: Liberal: I didn't put down "very" liberal because, to be honest, I am not completely comfortable with the nature of homosexuality. I'm embarrassed to admit it, as I think it's a rather backwards view to have, but I can't deny it. I still tend to think of marriage as being between a man and a woman. That said, I cannot reasonably deny anyone the right to marry whoever he or she (or it) wishes. Proposition 8 was just cruel.

Taxes: Very Liberal: I'll pay what I have to and take the rest out through evil rich-person schemes.

War on Terror: Moderate: 9/11 was, from what I have seen, the fault of Al-Qaeda, although I will not deny that the ignorance and inactivity of the Bush administration may have allowed it to happen. I do believe that America needs to stop with the hypocritical holier-than-thou bullshit and support the universal destruction of all nuclear weapons; its own, Israel's, China's, India's, Pakistan's, Russia's, etc. They all need to go or they all get to stay, which would mean that North Korea and Iran are free to develop whatever the hell they want.

Social Security/Welfare: Undecided: I'm not nearly informed enough to make a decision on these, but from what I understand I will probably lean liberal.

Health Care: Liberal: Universal health care should be a right, not a privilege.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
This is indoctrinated, like it or not but if there is one fact it's this one, everyone is born as an atheïst.

And another fact is that nothing is infinite, everything has a beginning and an ending, how big it may be.

It may be but the way it was explained sounded so logical, I believed in it.

Originally posted by Publius II

Abortion: Liberal/Moderate: I had a long discussion about this with Gideon and a few others several hundred posts back. I am pro-choice, and I think every woman should have the right to abortion, but I absolutely despise those who would treat it as a contraceptive. If you get knocked up because you were too drunk or too stupid to use a condom or a pill, you're an idiot. You won't be denied, but you will be judged.


Holy hell, that's exactly my thoughts on the issue.

Affirmative Action: Conservative: It's just a stupid idea.

Death Penalty: Liberal: Another stupid idea.

Do me a favor and explain this. I for one believe that in certain cases, you deserve to die for your crimes. I don't want to say "an eye for an eye", but I sure as hell would prefer to give someone the needle, over letting them chill in prison. My only exception to this is child molesters and rapists. The reason is for them, life in prison IS a death sentence, giving them an actual death penalty is too lenient. But this second part is just a personal opinion of mine and in no way follows any kind of American law.

Economy: Liberal/Moderate: I would probably support a bailout if I knew exactly where the money was going, and I think the current crisis proves that regulation is necessary, but I generally don't mind a well-executed laissez-faire system.

Agreed for hte most part

Environment: Very Liberal: Massive problem, massive overhaul necessary to fix it. There are no two ways about this one.

As much as I despise tree hugging hippies because they're just looking for a cause, I know that whatever we're doing now, is definitely not working, so a new direction is necessary.

Animal Rights: Very Liberal: This one is certainly easy to attack, but I see value in the preservation of species and in the humane treatment of all animals. I think hunting for sport and bullfighting are barbaric and primitive. That said, the recent bid to have one chimpanzee declared a human was fairly absurd.

This is probably my most liberal one out of all my beliefs, and it's enhanced greatly by the fact that I love animals more than I love humans in the fact that animals are empty. I have murderous rage to animal abusers and I think there should be strong penalties enforced for animal abuse.

Gun Control: Liberal: No militia, no guns. As the oft-repeated quote states, a perfect society is one in which everyone has guns an nobody wants to use them. I say a perfect society is one in which nobody has guns and nobody wants to use them.

I'm not ultra conservative here in the sense that I do believe in background checks, waiting times, and some sort of control. But I believe in the 2nd Amendment. I believe we as citizens have a right to arm ourselves in the confines of our homes. Look at Israel. Soldiers walk around with uzis, the majority of households have guns, yet we don't see them shooting each other.

Illegal Immigration: Undecided: It needs to stop, now, but the emotional part of me wants to grant amnesty to those that are already here.

I'm into the idea that if you want to come into this country illegally, then you should learn our language and be assimilated into our society.

Religion: Very Liberal: Keep it separated. 'Nuff said.

Somewhat agree but that's a whole different issue.

Same-sex marriage: Liberal: I didn't put down "very" liberal because, to be honest, I am not completely comfortable with the nature of homosexuality. I'm embarrassed to admit it, as I think it's a rather backwards view to have, but I can't deny it. I still tend to think of marriage as being between a man and a woman. That said, I cannot reasonably deny anyone the right to marry whoever he or she (or it) wishes. Proposition 8 was just cruel.

Conservative on this issue for reasons stated in previous posts. I thought proposition 8 was good for banning same sex marriages, but bad because it will affect heterosexual domestic partners as well.

Taxes: Very Liberal: I'll pay what I have to and take the rest out through evil rich-person schemes.

My family and I are in the 34%-35% tax bracket and while I think it's high, I agree with it. Different discussion.

War on Terror: Moderate: 9/11 was, from what I have seen, the fault of Al-Qaeda, although I will not deny that the ignorance and inactivity of the Bush administration may have allowed it to happen. I do believe that America needs to stop with the hypocritical holier-than-thou bullshit and support the universal destruction of all nuclear weapons; its own, Israel's, China's, India's, Pakistan's, Russia's, etc. They all need to go or they all get to stay, which would mean that North Korea and Iran are free to develop whatever the hell they want.

Yes, the Bush administration made a lot of errors in dealing with 9/11. Nuclear weapons? That's an iffy one, not really sure about that.

Social Security/Welfare: Undecided: I'm not nearly informed enough to make a decision on these, but from what I understand I will probably lean liberal.

Not too sure about this one.

Health Care: Liberal: Universal health care should be a right, not a privilege. [/B]

This is also one of the liberal ones I agree upon. It works for canada, why not here?

Faunus, how do you feel about the minimum wage?
(And anti affirmative action? WTF?)

DS, I think that most people will agree on most issues because most people are moderate on most issues.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Faunus, how do you feel about the minimum wage?
(And anti affirmative action? WTF?

DS, I think that most people will agree on most issues because most people are moderate on most issues.

This is a ridiculous assertion. Most people are not moderate on most issues. I agree with Faunus on issues because he's conservative on some, while I am liberal on others.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is a ridiculous assertion. Most people are not moderate on most issues. I agree with Faunus on issues because he's conservative on some, while I am liberal on others.

You feel that more people are extremist on most views?

Moderate (in this sense) meant near the middle of the bell curve- not moderate as a philosophical outlook.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You feel that more people are extremist on most views?

Moderate (in this sense) meant near the middle of the bell curve- not moderate as a philosophical outlook.

I feel that I am either left or right on more views than I'm either in the middle or undecided. I think most educated people are the same way.

Yes, of course you lean left or right, but those who are extremist on every view are few and far between.

Maybe its just 'cause I'm sick of the left/right dichotomy creating a near-impenetrable wall within America, but I've found that it is rare for even the most conservative people (that I've met) to be unable to find any common ground with me.

(Way to imply that I'm not educated. Well played. Well played indeed.)

DS, I'll get back to you on everything tomorrow.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Maybe its just 'cause I'm sick of the left/right dichotomy creating a near-impenetrable wall within America,
Jesus, thank you. I don't think I've ever heard someone else express this but me.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Yes, of course you lean left or right, but those who are extremist on every view are few and far between.

Maybe its just 'cause I'm sick of the left/right dichotomy creating a near-impenetrable wall within America, but I've found that it is rare for even the most conservative people (that I've met) to be unable to find any common ground with me.

(Way to imply that I'm not educated. Well played. Well played indeed.)

I did not imply anything of the sort. What's with people's logical deducing skills on this forum. What I meant was most of the educated people I know lean one way or the other. Of course we all have moderate views but you made the assertions that most people are moderate on most views.

And as for the dichotomy, that's your opinion. However I would defend a liberal with conservative views over a conservative who is a right wing extremist any day.

Hugh Laurie > James Spader + William Shatner @ SAG.

House FTW.

Originally posted by Publius II
Hugh Laurie > James Spader + William Shatner @ SAG.

House FTW.

That really surprised me. Spader's always beaten Laurie's ass in every award.

Originally posted by Publius II
Hugh Laurie > James Spader + William Shatner @ SAG.

House FTW.

Pshh. In his heyday Shatner could beat the shit out of Hugh Laurie solo. James Spader is, however, even greater than Shatner Prime. Spader takes this match.

No, Faunus was right. Laurie beat Spader for the first time in an award for Outstanding Lead Actor at the SAG awards.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, Faunus was right. Laurie beat Spader for the first time in an award for Outstanding Lead Actor at the SAG awards.

Oh. Well damn. Someday, far in the future, at least one of you will grant me the small kindness of a bit of context in one of your posts.

He's not better than Spader overall.