The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Darth Sexy3,287 pages
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
I don't quite see the argument for why a child "needs to have a mom and a dad", considering the divorce rate is higher then ever and more and more people have been growing up in women only households or men only households. My family for the last five generations has been raised by single parents, I'm not the only one. Are all of us messed up?

Nope. But the Jewish divorce rate is miniscule at best, but I guess we were brought up differently. To me, the sanctity of marriage has worked and been beneficial for millennia. To me, having two parents, a mom and a dad, has been emotionally, psychologically, and socially healthy for the child/children. Obviously for the secular world, having 1 parent isn't as good as two, and I agree with Red Nemesis' argument about having two loving parents. I'm indifferent though about choosing between a single parent or two same sex parents, but in regards to having a choice between 2 same sex parents and a man and a woman, the latter always wins, in regular cases.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I love the comparison. There's a reason why the country was divided in terms of racism.
Yeah, let's ignore the tens of millions of lunatics fighting for gay rights. They don't matter.

Hating innocent people is wrong.
Really?

There's no benefits to it. I've read many studies on the issues kids have and can have with same sex parents.
Yeah. Straight girls never have to face alcoholism, domestic violence, sexual abuse, divorce, being slaughtered by her father alongside her mother and four siblings because her parents lost their jobs and the dad couldn't take it...

Oh wait.

Obviously there are exceptions but there is absolutely nothing beneficial to the child concerning having same sex parents.
There's nothing detrimental about it, either. You understand that all homosexuals are the result heterosexual relations, and that the vast majority of them are the result of a lifetime in a heterosexual home, right? Don't have kids, people. You'll just turn 'em into ****.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
I know a guy who's been raised by two women for thirteen years, as well. He's a perfectly normal person.
Yeah and i also know children who were raised in abusive homes, that are perfectly normal.

Anti-gay idealists don't have a single case.
Well i guess they do. How would you explain to a five year old boy who has two fathers, why his friends all have mothers, but he don't?

The idea that a gay marriage wrecks traditional family values is pointless because there are gay couples who have adopted and have, for the most part, completely natural families.
Read above.

But then again, blacks shouldn't be married either, or be allowed to vote.
Why shouldn't they? They are humans just like everyone else. I hate when people make that kind of comparison.

Blacks aren't people, right? It's unnatural. At least, that was the mindset for many years. 🙂
So what is unnatural about them? Their skin color. How is that unnatural when they were born that way.

No one said gay people were not natural, but their actions are. You are comparing a race to a mixed up mentality.

Originally posted by Publius II
Yeah, let's ignore the tens of millions of lunatics fighting for gay rights. They don't matter.

What is their logic? Everyone deserves to be happy? Really, tell me.

Yeah. Straight girls never have to face alcoholism, domestic violence, sexual abuse, divorce, being slaughtered by her father alongside her mother and four siblings because her parents lost their jobs and the dad couldn't take it...

You're actually proving my point by creating mitigating circumstances. Seriously.

There's nothing detrimental about it, either. You understand that all homosexuals are the result heterosexual relations, and that the vast majority of them are the result of a lifetime in a heterosexual home, right? Don't have kids, people. You'll just turn 'em into ****.

Lol. Do you have aim or something. You and I are getting nowhere on these issues because i don't fully understand where you're coming from and I don't think you understand where I'm coming from either.

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/parenting/11824res19990406.html

The ACLU has this to say:


The last decade has seen a sharp rise in the number of lesbians and gay men forming their own families through adoption, foster care, artificial insemination and other means. Researchers estimate that the total number of children nationwide living with at least one gay parent ranges from six to 14 million.

At the same time, the United States is facing a critical shortage of adoptive and foster parents. As a result, hundreds of thousands of children in this country are without permanent homes. These children languish for months, even years, within state foster care systems that lack qualified foster parents and are frequently riddled with other problems. In Arkansas, for example, the foster care system does such a poor job of caring for children that it has been placed under court supervision.

Legal and Policy Overview of Lesbian and Gay Parenting

Many states have moved to safeguard the interests of children with gay or lesbian parents. For example, at least 21 states have granted second-parent adoptions to lesbian and gay couples, ensuring that their children can enjoy the benefits of having two legal parents, especially if one of the parents dies or becomes incapacitated.

Recognizing that lesbians and gay men can be good parents, the vast majority of states no longer deny custody or visitation to a person based on sexual orientation. State agencies and courts now apply a "best interest of the child" standard to decide these cases. Under this approach, a person's sexual orientation cannot be the basis for ending or limiting parent-child relationships unless it is demonstrated that it causes harm to a child -- a claim that has been routinely disproved by social science research. Using this standard, more than 22 states to date have allowed lesbians and gay men to adopt children either through state-run or private adoption agencies.

Nonetheless, a few states -- relying on myths and stereotypes -- have used a parent's sexual orientation to deny custody, adoption, visitation and foster care. For instance, two states (Florida and New Hampshire) have laws that expressly bar lesbians and gay men from ever adopting children. In a notorious 1993 decision, a court in Virginia took away Sharon Bottoms' 2-year-old son simply because of her sexual orientation, and transferred custody to the boy's maternal grandmother. And Arkansas has just adopted a policy prohibiting lesbians, gay men, and those who live with them, from serving as foster parents.

Research Overview of Lesbian and Gay Parenting

All of the research to date has reached the same unequivocal conclusion about gay parenting: the children of lesbian and gay parents grow up as successfully as the children of heterosexual parents. In fact, not a single study has found the children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged because of their parents' sexual orientation. Other key findings include:
1. There is no evidence to suggest that lesbians and gay men are unfit to be parents.
2. Home environments with lesbian and gay parents are as likely to successfully support a child's development as those with heterosexual parents.
3. Good parenting is not influenced by sexual orientation. Rather, it is influenced most profoundly by a parent's ability to create a loving and nurturing home -- an ability that does not depend on whether a parent is gay or straight.
4. There is no evidence to suggest that the children of lesbian and gay parents are less intelligent, suffer from more problems, are less popular, or have lower self-esteem than children of heterosexual parents.
5. The children of lesbian and gay parents grow up as happy, healthy and well-adjusted as the children of heterosexual parents.

A Crisis in Adoption and Foster Care

Right now there is a critical shortage of adoptive and foster parents in the United States. As a result, many children have no permanent homes, while others are forced to survive in an endless series of substandard foster homes. It is estimated that there are 500,000 children in foster care nationally, and 100,000 need to be adopted. But last year there were qualified adoptive parents available for only 20,000 of these children. Many of these children have historically been viewed as "unadoptable" because they are not healthy white infants. Instead, they are often minority children and/or adolescents, many with significant health problems.

There is much evidence documenting the serious damage suffered by children without permanent homes who are placed in substandard foster homes. Children frequently become victims of the "foster care shuffle," in which they are moved from temporary home to temporary home. A child stuck in permanent foster care can live in 20 or more homes by the time she reaches 18. It is not surprising, therefore, that long-term foster care is associated with increased emotional problems, delinquency, substance abuse and academic problems.

In order to reach out and find more and better parents for children without homes, adoption and foster care policies have become increasingly inclusive over the past two decades. While adoption and foster care were once viewed as services offered to infertile, middle-class, largely white couples seeking healthy same-race infants, these policies have modernized. In the past two decades, child welfare agencies have changed their policies to make adoption and foster care possible for a much broader range of adults, including minority families, older individuals, families who already have children, single parents (male and female), individuals with physical disabilities, and families across a broad economic range. These changes have often been controversial at the outset. According to the CWLA, "at one time or another, the inclusion of each of these groups has caused controversy. Many well-intended individuals vigorously opposed including each new group as potential adopters and voiced concern that standards were being lowered in a way that could forever damage the field of adoption."

[...]

Myth: The only acceptable home for a child is one with a mother and father who are married to each other.

Fact: Children without homes do not have the option of choosing between a married mother and father or some other type of parent(s). These children have neither a mother nor a father, married or unmarried. There simply are not enough married mothers and fathers who are interested in adoption and foster care. Last year only 20,000 of the 100,000 foster children in need of adoption were adopted, including children adopted by single people as well as married couples. Our adoption and foster care policies must deal with reality, or these children will never have stable and loving homes.

Myth: Children need a mother and a father to have proper male and female role models.

Fact: Children without homes have neither a mother nor a father as role models. And children get their role models from many places besides their parents. These include grandparents, aunts and uncles, teachers, friends, and neighbors. In a case-by-case evaluation, trained professionals can ensure that the child to be adopted or placed in foster care is moving into an environment with adequate role models of all types.

[...]

Myth: Children raised by gay or lesbian parents are more likely to grow up gay themselves.

Fact: All of the available evidence demonstrates that the sexual orientation of parents has no impact on the sexual orientation of their children and that children of lesbian and gay parents are no more likely than any other child to grow up to be gay. There is some evidence that children of gays and lesbians are more tolerant of diversity, but this is certainly not a disadvantage. Of course, some children of lesbians and gay men will grow up to be gay, as will some children of heterosexual parents. These children will have the added advantage of being raised by parents who are supportive and accepting in a world that can sometimes be hostile.

Myth: Children who are raised by lesbian or gay parents will be subjected to harassment and will be rejected by their peers.

Fact: Children make fun of other children for all kinds of reasons: for being too short or too tall, for being too thin or too fat, for being of a different race or religion or speaking a different language. Children show remarkable resiliency, especially if they are provided with a stable and loving home environment. Children in foster care can face tremendous abuse from their peers for being parentless. These children often internalize that abuse, and often feel unwanted. Unfortunately, they do not have the emotional support of a loving permanent family to help them through these difficult times.

Myth: Lesbians and gay men are more likely to molest children.

Fact: There is no connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. All of the legitimate scientific evidence shows that. Sexual orientation, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is an adult sexual attraction to others. Pedophilia, on the other hand, is an adult sexual attraction to children. Ninety percent of child abuse is committed by heterosexual men. In one study of 269 cases of child sexual abuse, only two offenders were gay or lesbian. Of the cases studied involving molestation of a boy by a man, 74 percent of the men were or had been in a heterosexual relationship with the boy's mother or another female relative. The study concluded that "a child's risk of being molested by his or her relative's heterosexual partner is over 100 times greater than by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual."
[...]

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah and i also know children who were raised in abusive homes, that are perfectly normal.
There's a valid comparison.

Oh, gosh, look what the heteros did to Paris Hilton and Hitler. Straight parents must only breed tools ["s-lut" is harsh] and murderers!

Well i guess they do. How would you explain to a five year old boy who has two fathers, why his friends all have mothers, but he don't?
By telling him "you have two fathers..."

Why shouldn't they? They are humans just like everyone else.
So gay people are... Wookies?

I hate when people make that kind of comparison.
Then you should probably stay off the "abusive home = gay home" route.

So what is unnatural about them? Their skin color. How is that unnatural when they were born that way.
Warmer.

No one said gay people were not natural, but their actions are.
Do you think while typing?

You are comparing a race to a mixed up mentality.
Nope. Black people are satanic and have no rights; whites are made in God's image.

Mentality ? No, a different mentality is having different views on politics, being gay is gene related just like your race is gene related. Their actions are just as natural as someone who doesn't want to sit in the back of a bus.

You can easily compare race to sexual preference.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/parenting/11824res19990406.html

The ACLU has this to say:

Ah the good old ACLU. They'll blame everybody. Government. Whites. Regan. Conservatives. Society. Everyone's fault. The ACLU is hilarious. They only serve their purpose when they defend someone against a general threat, not a perceived one.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Mentality ? No, a different mentality is having different views on politics, being gay is gene related just like your race is gene related. Their actions are just as natural as someone who doesn't want to sit in the back of a bus.

You can easily compare race to sexual preference.

With all due respect, from what i've read, there are no studies that show conclusively, whether you can be born with a homosexual gene, or if you become homosexual as a product of your environment. I could be wrong of course.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
With all due respect, from what i've read, there are no studies that show conclusively, whether you can be born with a homosexual gene, or if you become homosexual as a product of your environment. I could be wrong of course.

So you're saying that someone is not born as a homosexual and are straight as a child untill a certain point you become gay?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Sids, I get the feeling you've never 'stuck anything from your body' up anyone body...
Well i am not going to play this little kid game with you, and say "well i bet i get more than you", because really you don't matter. lol

I would as how you know what nature intended but then I remember how you are omnipotent and all... wait. That isn't you at all, is it?
("Intended to be that way"? What? Who intended what now?)
Are you really going to use this kind of arguement?

I've gotta say, also, that you aren't in a position to determine what is and isn't natural (because if it exists it is natural. End of story.) and that whatever you find 'natural' might not be what I find natural or what the witch down the street does. I'm sorry that not everyone has the decency to believe what you do (I know! How dare we!) but you can't force your prudish conventions on others.
Well i guess having sex with animals, or little children is natural because it exists. Oh yeah it is perfectly natural.

About the adoption? What is unfair for children is prohibiting them from going to a loving home- institutionalizing children or shuffling them from place to place does far more severe, lasting harm to a developing psyche than having 2 moms.
So are you saying go ahead and let gays adopt, because there are not enough straight people out there?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ah the good old ACLU. They'll blame everybody. Government. Whites. Regan. Conservatives. Society. Everyone's fault. The ACLU is hilarious. They only serve their purpose when they defend someone against a general threat, not a perceived one.

Well, isn't the oppression of and discrimination against a group of people due to an inborn trait a general threat? You are so fond of the 'slippery slope' argument: If we begin to dictate what individuals can and can not do (in a consenting, non-damaging relationship) then when will we stop telling people what to do?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So you're saying that someone is not born as a homosexual and are straight as a child untill a certain point you become gay?

I am a strong believer in nature vs. nurture. I believe that in the wrong kind of environment, yes. You play with dolls long enough. You do ballet, etc. But I also think that genetics HAS to play some sort of role in this. Again, I'm not sure as studies have thus far been largely inconclusive.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Well, isn't the oppression of and discrimination against a group of people due to an inborn trait a general threat? You are so fond of the 'slippery slope' argument: If we begin to dictate what individuals can and can not do (in a consenting, non-damaging relationship) then when will we stop telling people what to do?

Inborn trait? Please prove that. Oppression? I highly call them not being allowed to marry because of thousands of years behind the concept of marriage, oppression.

And you're fond of this liberal mentality. If we DONT tell people what to do, people will do whatever they want. IF we DONT tell people what to do, right and wrong, good and evil will cease to exist, because people will say "who are you to...". I am almost positive you don't believe in organized religion.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well i am not going to play this little kid game with you, and say "well i bet i get more than you", because really you don't matter. lol

I'm just giving you shit. It happens on these boards. As Gideon might say, "..." well damn. I don't know what Gideon would say. He told me not to take little jabs at people too seriously, so I don't.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Are you really going to use this kind of arguement?

Well, considering that
Your views =/= absolute truth
and that you aren't in a position to dictate what is or is not moral, yes. Yes I am.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Well i guess having sex with animals, or little children is natural because it exists. Oh yeah it is perfectly natural.

1. Homosexuality =/= Pedophilia
2. Having sex with animals or children is not consensual. Children aren't fit to make that decision and for obvious reasons animals are not able to. In both of your examples, real, lasting harm (to bodies or to psyches) is being caused. This harm is not present in a loving (gay) relationship.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

So are you saying go ahead and let gays adopt, because there are not enough straight people out there?

I'm saying that we should not deny the right to adopt and cherish a child to a homosexual couple because they are homosexual any more than we should deny a child to a black couple because they are black. Also, pragmatically, there aren't so many people willing to adopt that we can afford to turn down otherwise acceptable candidates.

Ok Ignore Sidious please, he's not backing up his stance well.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok Ignore Sidious please, he's not backing up his stance well.

😆

Originally posted by Publius II
There's a valid comparison.

Oh, gosh, look what the heteros did to Paris Hilton and Hitler. Straight parents must only breed tools ["s-lut" is harsh] and murderers!

No not really.

By telling him "you have two fathers..."
Is that an explanation, or is that telling them something they know.

So gay people are... Wookies?
No they are humans with mixed up mentalities.

Then you should probably stay off the "abusive home = gay home" route.
No i was trying to say that him knowing a perfectly fine person, who was raised in a gay home, does not make it right.

Warmer.
Well avoid answering the question why don't you?

Do you think while typing?
Wow! Still avoiding my points.

Nope. Black people are satanic and have no rights; whites are made in God's image.
How are they satanic? Because of their skin color? If you are going to make a comparison at least give a reason.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How are they satanic? Because of their skin color? If you are going to make a comparison at least give a reason.

I can't believe you took that seriously.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Mentality ? No, a different mentality is having different views on politics, being gay is gene related just like your race is gene related. Their actions are just as natural as someone who doesn't want to sit in the back of a bus.

You can easily compare race to sexual preference.

No it is not gene related. That is like saying people who have a sexual attraction to children is gene related. Because, according to child molesters, they can't help but to have sexual attraction to young kids. The only reason why gays are not excepted,and gays are, is because most children are not old enough to make decisions for themselves.