The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Dr McBeefington3,287 pages
Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I've also hit 104. I'm not there now, but I know what it's like. Thank jebus I didn't catch that again.

Anyway: on personal responsibility and social awareness:

I see no contradiction between a belief in humanity, a belief in the individual and an understanding of psychological factors. Basically, I think people, not a 'sky-god' are the key to a better world. I also think that people are responsible for their actions but that no-one does something for no reason. Both the socially beneficial and socially destructive acts (which are the easiest to lump into 'good' and 'evil'😉 are caused, at least in part, by one's upbringing and environment- not to mention innate personality & abilities.

In part, I agree. But this isn't the stance I'm used to hearing. I'm used to hearing societal factors over personal responsibility. If THAT is the liberal stance, then it would be a contradiction because you can't believe in both humanity, and pure (or mostly) external forces.

Eminence Boss

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That doesn't work. I said the exact same thing regarding Sidious66 but did you listen? No. (That was supposed to sound as snide as possible. Just use your imagination.)
But...

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
In part, I agree. But this isn't the stance I'm used to hearing. I'm used to hearing societal factors over personal responsibility. If THAT is the liberal stance, then it would be a contradiction because you can't believe in both humanity, and pure (or mostly) external forces.

It isn't a contradiction at all. Humanity is the 'prime material' with which we must work. The best chance we have at fabricating a more free, just and stable world is to understand how and why people act. This is done through sociological and psychological research, the majority of which seems to support the positions that I've put forth. You've been working on anecdotal, personal experiences. The scientific method and our modern aversion to stereotypes suggests that my methodology (and by extension the methodology of the sociological sciences) is preferable.

Eminence Boss

Wait. It's part of your sig.

I'm slooooow...

Also:

Humanity is the 'prime material' with which we must to work.
u fail

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Fixed. Originally it had been 'have to work' but then I realized that the phrasing was ambiguous (like you) and it didn't convey that we have got to do something with it (or else pass into nothingness) rather than it being our only option (which also works, maybe I'll put it back to that... I'm sensing a double ninja).

🥷

Edit: nah, the other version sounds more stupider. Can you imagine? I didn't think I could do it, but I did!

Eminence Boss

'More stupider'? DON'T PLAY YOUR TRICKS ON ME.

Dr McBeefington Restricted
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
It isn't a contradiction at all. Humanity is the 'prime material' with which we must work. The best chance we have at fabricating a more free, just and stable world is to understand how and why people act. This is done through sociological and psychological research, the majority of which seems to support the positions that I've put forth. You've been working on anecdotal, personal experiences. The scientific method and our modern aversion to stereotypes suggests that my methodology (and by extension the methodology of the sociological sciences) is preferable.

THen why do we try and understand why people do wrong, rather than try and understand why people do right? I don't think you'll argue that it's a lot easier to do the wrong thing rather than the right one. If that's the case, why are we focusing on one aspect and not the other?

Really? Your methodology is preferable? To whom? Your methodology doesn't work in the criminal justice system, otherwise we'd let every guilty man go because of "external factors". I am in agreement with you that we totally have to look at external factors as a part of individual and collective responsibility, but the factors should NEVER replace justice/personal responsibility.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Then why do we try and understand why people do wrong, rather than try and understand why people do right? I don't think you'll argue that it's a lot easier to do the wrong thing rather than the right one. If that's the case, why are we focusing on one aspect and not the other?

Because when people do 'wrong' they are committing a socially destructive act. Knowing why (and presumably encouraging more) people act well does not contribute to the integrity of society as we have formulated it. Put simply, knowing why people act 'correctly' does not help anyone.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Really? Your methodology is preferable? To whom? Your methodology doesn't work in the criminal justice system, otherwise we'd let every guilty man go because of "external factors". I am in agreement with you that we totally have to look at external factors as a part of individual and collective responsibility, but the factors should NEVER replace justice/personal responsibility.

It is preferable to those who want to understand and end the cycle of violence and crime rather than react to it.

My 'methodology' (science) does work in the criminal justice system because it does not absolve anyone of responsibility for their actions. The goal (or at least my goal) is to understand the conditions that lead to crime (like poverty and abuse) and alleviate those circumstances so that no-one is forced to turn to a life of crime or continue the cycle of hate they are locked into.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Because when people do 'wrong' they are committing a socially destructive act. Knowing why (and presumably encouraging more) people act well does not contribute to the integrity of society as we have formulated it. Put simply, knowing why people act 'correctly' does not help anyone.


Do you agree that it's easier to do the wrong thing than it is the right thing? Also, I don't think we'll ever know why people do what they do, judging by the past 4,000 years. Thinking we'll figure it out is an arrogant stance. Since the dawn of time, man has been prone to destruction, and this isn't likely to change.
And I agree, knowing why people do wrong is important. But I think it's more important knowing that for every person that did wrong, 10 others in the same situation, same neighborhood, etc, did right.

It is preferable to those who want to understand and end the cycle of violence and crime rather than react to it.

Everybody wants to ideally end the violence. But I don't think it's a realistic goal. It's more realistic to attempt to contain it and even at best, minimize it.

My 'methodology' (science) does work in the criminal justice system because it does not absolve anyone of responsibility for their actions. The goal (or at least my goal) is to understand the conditions that lead to crime (like poverty and abuse) and alleviate those circumstances so that no-one is forced to turn to a life of crime or continue the cycle of hate they are locked into. [/B]

There are more people in poverty and who have been abused that don't commit crimes, than the ones that do, dude. How are you going to understand the minority that does commit those crimes and not understand the majority that doesn't, in the same situation? Again, if you think the conditions that lead to crime are poverty and abuse, you don't seem to understand white collar crimes, where the majority ARENT in the lower class, nor are abused. For all of these societal factors, it's personal responsibility that causes the end result, not the factors.

Your methodology is popular in criminal defense as a justification for a crime, rather than a role in leniency.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

No your positions stupider!!! No your positions stupider!! NO U!! NO U!!!! U!! U!!11 argue

starwars

Dr McBeefington Restricted

^

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

😆 😆 😆

I have a slight adrenaline high from watching Quantum of Solace.

Lol, I guess this means I'm off ignore huh.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
My 'methodology' (science) does work in the criminal justice system because it does not absolve anyone of responsibility for their actions. The goal (or at least my goal) is to understand the conditions that lead to crime (like poverty and abuse) and alleviate those circumstances so that no-one is forced to turn to a life of crime or continue the cycle of hate they are locked into. [/B]
Whether it's understood or not is one thing, but you can't deny that punishing the anomalies is still necessary.

Eminence Boss

I don't think he did.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

I think the issue of disagreement between RH and I is that he does believe in personal responsibility, but it is based on socioeconomic factors. I believe in personal responsibility while socioeconomic factors CAN play a role, it's ultimately the free choice of the individual.

You ever wonder why so many people cheat on their taxes? It's not because of socioeconomic factors. It's because it's easy to do, and it's easy to get away with. Regardless of race, class, gender, etc.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I think the issue of disagreement between RH and I is that he does believe in personal responsibility, but it is based on socioeconomic factors. I believe in personal responsibility while socioeconomic factors CAN play a role, it's ultimately the free choice of the individual.

You ever wonder why so many people cheat on their taxes? It's not because of socioeconomic factors. It's because it's easy to do, and it's easy to get away with. Regardless of race, class, gender, etc.

True. The rich cheat on their taxes to become richer. The poor (if they know how to or make enough to even have taxes) would cheat if they could. The desire for gain without consequence goes against every noble enterprise. Shame really.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!
You ever wonder why so many people cheat on their taxes? It's not because of socioeconomic factors. It's because it's easy to do, and it's easy to get away with. Regardless of race, class, gender, etc.

Damn, Have to agree with you there.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

I'm hoping for a rebuttal. Anyways, Yanni is coming to town soon, so hell YEA.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

2 morrow. Srsly.

Maybe MC will have something to say. You know he is walking around upside down?

Dr McBeefington Restricted

I don't know wtf that means but super.