The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Master Crimzon3,287 pages
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Do you agree that it's easier to do the wrong thing than it is the right thing? Also, I don't think we'll ever know why people do what they do, judging by the past 4,000 years. Thinking we'll figure it out is an arrogant stance. Since the dawn of time, man has been prone to destruction, and this isn't likely to change.
And I agree, knowing why people do wrong is important. But I think it's more important knowing that for every person that did wrong, 10 others in the same situation, same neighborhood, etc, did right.

Man might have been prone to destruction since the 'dawn of history', but changing societal standards and norms are ultimately moving towards the lowering of violence. We can ascend beyond our history and our 'brutish' past, if you will.

It's all important to know why people resort to violence. First of all, I've explained why the immediate circumstances (poverty) are important, but there are deeper, more subtle, and less obvious effects outside of that, including the way these factors interact with each individual's inherently unique psychology. By understanding why someone people resort to crime and some don't, we can move towards the reduction of the most common motivations in criminality and such.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Everybody wants to ideally end the violence. But I don't think it's a realistic goal. It's more realistic to attempt to contain it and even at best, minimize it.

I don't know if we can ever 'stop' violence or war; it's certainly not a realistically foreseeable goal in the immediate future. However, increasing our harshness with criminals is hardly the best method of containing crime; fear of punishment will almost always be overridden by desperation and the survival instinct. Such is within every creature's biological instincts. The best method of deterring crime is to understand the psychology behind average criminality.

That, and the complete legalization of all 'non-victim' criminal acts, mainly prostitution and drug use. But that is another debate for another time.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There are more people in poverty and who have been abused that don't commit crimes, than the ones that do, dude. How are you going to understand the minority that does commit those crimes and not understand the majority that doesn't, in the same situation? Again, if you think the conditions that lead to crime are poverty and abuse, you don't seem to understand white collar crimes, where the majority ARENT in the lower class, nor are abused. For all of these societal factors, it's personal responsibility that causes the end result, not the factors.

1. Multiple factors exist outside of the immediately perceivable societal one.
2. Greed is not a natural trait. In our society, that glorifies capitalism, some people inevitably interpret this as 'wealth at all costs'; thus, some people degenerate to crime in order to achieve the so-called American Dream. Even while collar crime can be traced to American society's values and traditions.
3. The majority of crimes are perpetrated by the lower class.

It's quite inefficient to continue talking about personal responsibility. The individual cannot be changed; that part of the causes of a certain action is beyond our control. However, the external factors exist within our grasp, and we should do our best to alter them.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Your methodology is popular in criminal defense as a justification for a crime, rather than a role in leniency.

I don't necessarily think leniency is the best method of action, but increasing our strictness with crime will hardly have any solid results. Hell, if perceived 'police brutality' is increased, then people's rebellious and furious urges will only increase, thus potentially causing increases in crime.

As for the taxes part? Again, materialism, capitalism, 'wealth at all costs', etc. Even though an individual is personally responsible for whatever crime he perpetrates, it's always possible to trace the motivation and the mentality behind it to socio-economic factors.

However, it's not exactly possibly to completely revamp our values as a society; and even if we do, there will be people who cling to these traditional values. Thus, we cannot exactly change the circumstances that lead to white collar crime, and thus concentrating on aspects such as poverty, segregation, and abuse is more efficient.

And I am NOT walking around upside down. 😐

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Man might have been prone to destruction since the 'dawn of history', but changing societal standards and norms are ultimately moving towards the lowering of violence. We can ascend beyond our history and our 'brutish' past, if you will.

Except there's no indication that we can rid ourselves of crimes. NO indication. You're full of hope and use that as an argument, while I use reality.

It's all important to know why people resort to violence. First of all, I've explained why the immediate circumstances (poverty) are important, but there are deeper, more subtle, and less obvious effects outside of that, including the way these factors interact with each individual's inherently unique psychology. By understanding why someone people resort to crime and some don't, we can move towards the reduction of the most common motivations in criminality and such.

And I gave the example of cheating on taxes, which I have yet to receive a rebuttal for. External factors only do so much, it comes down to personal choice.

I don't know if we can ever 'stop' violence or war; it's certainly not a realistically foreseeable goal in the immediate future. However, increasing our harshness with criminals is hardly the best method of containing crime; fear of punishment will almost always be overridden by desperation and the survival instinct. Such is within every creature's biological instincts. The best method of deterring crime is to understand the psychology behind average criminality.

Oh so the person that committed the crime is fine, but the system that punishes that criminal is not fine. That makes a lot of sense MC seriously. This country must be just before it can be compassionate. Compassion breeds more crime. And stop blaming crime on survival instinct since there's no basis for it.

That, and the complete legalization of all 'non-victim' criminal acts, mainly prostitution and drug use. But that is another debate for another time.

I am for legalizing marijuana. I am completely against legalizing hard drugs that will cause more overdoses and deaths.

1. Multiple factors exist outside of the immediately perceivable societal one.
2. Greed is not a natural trait. In our society, that glorifies capitalism, some people inevitably interpret this as 'wealth at all costs'; thus, some people degenerate to crime in order to achieve the so-called American Dream. Even while collar crime can be traced to American society's values and traditions.
3. The majority of crimes are perpetrated by the lower class.

2. The individual's values and traditions+America's values and traditions.
3. And white collar crimes destroy economies. Majority of white collar crimes are caused by the wealthy. Do you have an excuse for them also?

It's quite inefficient to continue talking about personal responsibility. The individual cannot be changed; that part of the causes of a certain action is beyond our control. However, the external factors exist within our grasp, and we should do our best to alter them.

Crime will always exist. What are you going to "alter"? People will continue to make personal choices, easy choices. This will never change. Your idea is hopeful at best.

I don't necessarily think leniency is the best method of action, but increasing our strictness with crime will hardly have any solid results. Hell, if perceived 'police brutality' is increased, then people's rebellious and furious urges will only increase, thus potentially causing increases in crime.

Absolutely not. Justice is a VITAL part of society. One of the MOST important parts. Strictness is absolutely essential in either deterring crimes, or at the very least, getting justice for the victims. There's NO proof that strictness causes more crimes.

As for the taxes part? Again, materialism, capitalism, 'wealth at all costs', etc. Even though an individual is personally responsible for whatever crime he perpetrates, it's always possible to trace the motivation and the mentality behind it to socio-economic factors.

No, it's not always possible. Again if you keep saying "socioeconomic factors" then you're saying people are good, because if they do wrong there MUST be some reason that ISNT personal choice. That argument just doesn't work. People that commit crimes might have external factors, but the decision is ultimately, almost ALWAYS, theirs.

Here's quite a good argument in favour of Capital Punishment:

http://ethics.sandiego.edu/Books/Mill/Punishment/index.html

Perhaps this will help with the argument.

Thanks but I don't need help with capital punishment. It's funny how it's ok for the criminal to commit a murder, but when the state wants to legally execute a criminal after a fair trial, people start bitching.

Yeah, damn hypocrites.

Joking aside though, I'm for CP.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, damn hypocrites.

Joking aside though, I'm for CP.

You suck.

Oh Faunus! I was wondering when you were going to shove your big head and small testicles into this thread again.

But yea CP is for losers. Why punish people with a legal version of their crimes. Screw that. Lets keep them in maximum security prison for live where they can get fat and watch tv, while banging each other endlessly and joining l337 prison gangs.

You suck.

Crymoar. awecraz

But yea CP is for losers. Why punish people with a legal version of their crimes. Screw that. Lets keep them in maximum security prison for live where they can get fat and watch tv, while banging each other endlessly and joining l337 prison gangs.

I..I knew it!!! You're secretly French!! Admit it you Bastard!!!

French people are assholes.

He sounds resentful of prisoners who willingly get laid. Bad times in county would be my guess.

French people are assholes.

Damn cheese eating surrender monkey's!! uhuh

Originally posted by Eminence
He sounds resentful of prisoners who willingly get laid. Bad times in county would be my guess.

Poor faunus. Reality doesn't agree with his outlook on life so he's bitter. I'll get you that mood ring, sweetheart.

Here's a good question, for those in favour of rehabilitation, what do you make of psychopaths, those people who clinically cannot be made to feel remorse or see the error of their ways (Nebaris).

Require them to subscribe here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Here's a good question, for those in favour of rehabilitation, what do you make of psychopaths, those people who clinically cannot be made to feel remorse or see the error of their ways (Nebaris).
Judaism, duh.

So Gideon's advocating torture, anyone else?

Originally posted by Eminence
Judaism, duh.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So Gideon's advocating torture, anyone else?

Sometimes the ends do justify the means. But not taken to the steps of DS's Orwellian fantasy.

Ahahaha that was funny. Liberals with a hilariously skewed view of reality knocking on religion because they feel smarter if they DONT follow something organized. That was a good one faunus, you should do standup. But make sure you're politically correct in all of your jokes or your enlighted brothers would be angry with you.

Originally posted by Gideon
Sometimes the ends do justify the means. But not taken to the steps of DS's Orwellian fantasy.

More like sexual fantasy.