Almost like the whole universe is plotted out by people with little understanding of scale. And created by a Lucas who confused parsecs with time, 1000 generations with a 1000 years, and who thinks that you can still fly to different star systems without FTL (a la ESB).
Or revived by an Abrams who thinks that all planets in a galaxy are visible from each other. Almost like Star Wars is pretty flippin dumb alot of the times.
Originally posted by Nai
Actually, I thought "I've seen Valkorion doing something like that in TOR but, unlike Palpatine, he actually killed people." And that was that. I didn't even think of it as particularly impressive. Because in the context of the former Expanded Universe, it just wasn't.
Cuz it's not. Also, if you want to keep the Sheevites from being hypocrites, you have to admit that he was buffed with an unverifiable number of Sith ghosts with power levels we can't in turn verify, on top of what must be a considerable Dark Side nexus. That's layers of help, not including the mechanical device needed to probably wipe his wrinkled ass.
Nu Sheev was disappointing as **** and there was no reason to bring him back like that, or perhaps at all. Aside from the Mandalorian, Disney Star Wars is an abomination. And that's having lived through Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the Christmas Special, and that Xbox Cloud City dance off game.
When I realized, they were bringing Sidious back, I honestly hoped for far more than what we've got. I wanted a rejuvinated Emperor, maybe a clone, with some diabolical plan and as much screentime as possible for Ian McDiarmid. Instead, I didn't even recognize Ian McDiarmid at first, because of all the lightning effects they utilized whenever showing his face.But I didn't get that dark side genius lurking at the edge of the Galaxy, equipped with some sinister plan to gain back control about the Galaxy. Instead it seemed like somebody revisited some of the classical works of the Star Wars EU and mined them for some ideas. The idea of bringing him back was taken from the Dark Empire comics, much like the idea, that Rey should kill him for his spirit to live on in her and control her. The entire setting of the Sith World (giant structures, dark alchemy) was taken from the temples on Yavin 4 in the height of Exar Kun's power in the TotJ comics. Putting him on some Sith apparatus to keep him alive was a copy of King Ommin (The Freedon Nadd Uprising) and the spectacular lightning, as said, was copied and pasted from The Old Republic.
The entire final fight was a Hollywood version of Jerec vs Kyle Katarn in Dark Forces: Jedi Knight. Two powerful opponents, both, apparently, spiritually backed by all their forebearerers in the respective orders and boosted otherwise (Sidous draining), being done with their fight in a single attack. Inbetween, we were served with a nod to KotoR 2 (force drain) and a nod to Cade Skywalker (with both the instinctive use of force lightning and the ability to heal others).
So essentially: This was fanservice throughout the entire movie, attempting to appeal to fans of the other movies, the video games, the comics, the Expanded Universe and the TV shows. They wanted to please everybody and wasted the character of Palpatine in the process, which he didn't deserve.
Yeah, agreed. Palps' big thing is he's a schemer and his plots, including as detailed in the Clone Wars novels, are things of legend. Making him a Dark Lord of Life Support was dumb, especially since his appearance was leaked by the trailers. It had no real impact seeing him, and diminished him entirely.
They could have replaced him with someone else new, since they were busy somehow mining Legends EU for good ideas with one hand and filling the other up with feces. I have to give GL credit for what he did, because this new stuff is awful.
I mean, seriously: That cunning, evil, diabolical genius just sits on his half-dead ass for 40 years with a fleet of planet busting ships under his control and does nothing but wait for his granddaughter to show up to possess he, while the First Order, led by some creature he had created, failed to do anything remotely ressembling competence. Yup. That seemed reasonable. Not to mention his severe lack of rhetorical finesse ("Order 66" - "First Order" - "Final Order"😉. They could have done far more with his character - and should have.
If he could make and control Snape or Snorkel or whatever his name was, needing to possess his granddaughter seemed kind of trivial. Rey needed a lot of contrived bullshit to keep people caring about her. They could have avoided all of this and made her a new unrelated generation of Jedi. But then they could have avoided skull****ing Luke's lessons and history in the OT, avoided making the First Order, avoiding floating galaxy princess Leia, etc. etc. Some kind of cohesion in the films would have been nice.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Indeed.
Some stray observations garnered from my perilous hike through the unstable salt mine above:
[list]
[*]Sidious disabling 16,000 spaceships with a sustained volley of Force lightning exceeds all but a handful of Legends feats in terms of potency
[*]To whatever extent Exegol is a dark side nexus or dead Sith Lords aided him in the above feat are both unverified, but Rey concludes in the TROS novelization that the Emperor's power was indeed amplified after draining her and Ben
[*]While this certainly undermines the impressiveness of Sidious's feat for me personally, you shouldn't find it at all disqualifying given your notorious love of ancient Sith nexus-whores, one of which is explicitly confirmed to have leeched the power of thousands of Sith peers to vastly increase his capacity as a Force practitioner
[*]You've had years to cope with your weird insistence that Sidious's "big thing" (giggity) is simply his cunning when the consensus for years among peer-reviewed Lucasfilm publishing is that he's the most powerful Sith Lord ever. That Antediluvians remain the flat earthers of the Star Wars community is disquieting
[*]Personally, I find The Mandalorion overrated
[*]Disney canon is a big bowl of meh. Some standout works include Jedi: Fallen Order and any of the books written by Alexander Freed. As disappointed as I am, I'm not surprised. Collectively, Legends was far from high quality. Shame Kennedy and the Story Group pissed away the opportunity afforded by their blank slate reboot back in 2014
[*]In terms of the plot holes you cite for TROS, you will sadly find very little by way of clarification in Rae Carsen's TROS novel. It's an extremely bad book, from prose to world-building
[*]Hi and welcome back; this place flatlined unceremoniously a year or so ago
[/list]
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Probably won't. For one thing, the new Star Wars content isn't really compatible with debating (not enough new force user characters). For another, old KMC didn't have to compete with social networking sites. Discord has pretty much guaranteed that websites like this are obsolete.
Also, the lack of powerful characters is more a boon than anything else. Debating who would beat who in a battle is not only a waste of time and potential when you have such a big universe of stories to explore, it's also useless since the authors themselves put a fraction of as much thought as most of the former debaters did into designing the powers of their characters. They've always focused more on the character of characters, and I think it would behoove us if we followed their example.
Originally posted by Lucius
I recently watched Legend of Galactic Heroes, a space opera anime from the 80s heavily inspired by Star Wars. There is a battle in that anime where the combined forces of both sides number over 200,000 ships and like thirty million personnel. That's in a single battle. In this setting, a fleet of 25,000 ships is seen as small.It's nice to see a proper sense of scale for a war on a galactic scale.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Worse. Now it's boring.
Originally posted by Zamp
While you're here, did you save an archive copy of the character creation system you set up on RoK?edit: i think it'd be a good foundation for a forum quest
Yeah, I converted the forum to Tapatalk, so everything's there.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Indeed.Some stray observations garnered from my perilous hike through the unstable salt mine above:
[list]
[*]Sidious disabling 16,000 spaceships with a sustained volley of Force lightning exceeds all but a handful of Legends feats in terms of potency
It's a cosmic level Force power, which is impressive in a series which normally doesn't reach that level of power in fights. Jedi themselves only use powers on a much smaller scale collectively (Wall of Light) or with extreme prep and meditation (Battle Meditation). "All but a handful of Legends feats" though is misleading; ancient Sith used cosmic and high level Force powers consistently through the Legends continuity, and none of them had to use the collective power of Disney's castrated Sith collection and two drained Force neophytes to manage it.
More to the point, ROS implies the collective power of all or an unknown number of mid tier Jedi (who aren't cosmic level in power) can overcome Nu Sheev. That's not really promising, is it? Really, DE Sidious is more impressive than this half baked relic, considering he could basically channel and making a space-time ripping wormhole of much more devastation. Oh, and he could wipe his own ass and fight.
[*]To whatever extent Exegol is a dark side nexus or dead Sith Lords aided him in the above feat are both unverified,
This bit shouldn't be put so casually; it completely calls into question his ability to replicate it in any other situation or how much of it, if any, was his own power.
but Rey concludes in the TROS novelization that the Emperor's power was indeed amplified after draining her and Ben
In universe perspective from a Force noob, but not unfounded. He certainly didn't try it before he drained them. Maybe the Force tantric diode was the embodiment of Force electrical activity and all those Sith Lords in the Disneyverse are weaklings who rule through means unrelated to their personal strength.
[*]While this certainly undermines the impressiveness of Sidious's feat for me personally, you shouldn't find it at all disqualifying given your notorious love of ancient Sith nexus-whores, one of which is explicitly confirmed to have leeched the power of thousands of Sith peers to vastly increase his capacity as a Force practitioner
Eh, I'm not huge on Valkorian personally. I acknowledge that he's a contender and certainly one of the most impressive Dark Side users in Legends, but I don't particularly like him. Then again, I never did play the TOR expansion, which I heard was actually pretty good.
In any case, Nu Sheev's power remains unverified, possibly unable to be replicated outside of a given settings, and a one trick pony at best. I don't see him to be a serious threat to any top shelf Sith based on this. You're letting the scope of the single attack and your love for the character blind you to how one-dimensional it is in practice.
[*]You've had years to cope with your weird insistence that Sidious's "big thing" (giggity) is simply his cunning when the consensus for years among peer-reviewed Lucasfilm publishing is that he's the most powerful Sith Lord ever. That Antediluvians remain the flat earthers of the Star Wars community is disquieting
I've always preferred the idea of Sidious being the most intellectual of the Sith lords, and the most devious. It's pretty much in his behavior and his name, and since GL didn't make him an overpowered asswhupper in personal combat (letting him be bested by Mace and Yoda rather easily), it strikes me as counterproductive to insist he is the end all based on a blurb which itself is an unsubstantiated interpretation of events we can physically observe and examine.
Really, the best depictions of Sidious are in the Clone Wars novels, where everyone dances to his tune without knowing it. He's a chessmaster, not a championship fighter.
Sidious isn't shown to be this Force titan that defeats everyone. He's not imposing, undefeated, requiring a plot device or some such to overcome. Compare Sids to other movie bid bads and he comes out severely lacking.
He's not Thanos.
He's not Agent Smith.
He's not General Zod.
Hell, he's not even Roy Batty in that regards.
The party line of "scaling" and such is pretty telling. You have to use bizarre justifications to maintain the illusion and the simpletons reinforce your illusions because they act based on feeling instead of logic. Any sustained counter-argument to the status quo is met with personal attacks, misdirection, and blatant overwhelming confirmation bias.
Wait, **** it. Now I'm describing Trump and his fans.
[*]Personally, I find The Mandalorion overrated
I don't think it's the best thing ever, but it's the only good thing to come out of Disney so far.
[*]Disney canon is a big bowl of meh. Some standout works include Jedi: Fallen Order and any of the books written by Alexander Freed. As disappointed as I am, I'm not surprised. Collectively, Legends was far from high quality. Shame Kennedy and the Story Group pissed away the opportunity afforded by their blank slate reboot back in 2014
Fallen Order was actually really good. Probably the best SW experience I've had in a game since KotOR. They nailed everything that made the OT interesting without retreading old ground too much.
[*]In terms of the plot holes you cite for TROS, you will sadly find very little by way of clarification in Rae Carsen's TROS novel. It's an extremely bad book, from prose to world-building
The only good book novelization was ANH's, and that's because it's basically the original script, given stilted life by Allan Dean Foster.
[*]Hi and welcome back; this place flatlined unceremoniously a year or so ago
[/list]
2004-2019. RIP, SWVF.
Although to be fair, it was on life support for a lot longer than a year.
Originally posted by Zamp
False. Labyrinth of Evil & Revenge of the Sith are good, actually.
LoE isn't a novelization; it's a stand alone work which ties in to ROS. And the ROS novelization was woefully awful, using dated script material and embellishing things which aren't verified elsewhere. It's been a constantly canon nightmare since it came out, but because it bumps Sids and Anakin up considerably, it has a large fanbase here at KMC.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
LoE isn't a novelization; it's a stand alone work which ties in to ROS. And the ROS novelization was woefully awful, using dated script material and embellishing things which aren't verified elsewhere. It's been a constantly canon nightmare since it came out, but because it bumps Sids and Anakin up considerably, it has a large fanbase here at KMC.
I mean, Kenobi's duel with Grievous is probably my favorite depiction of lightsaber combat in the entire mythos. Really everything about Kenobi was good in that book imo
Originally posted by Zamp
I mean, Kenobi's duel with Grievous is probably my favorite depiction of lightsaber combat in the entire mythos. Really everything about Kenobi was good in that book imo
You know, I don't remember that well because we never discussed it at length. You tend to remember the stuff you debate, not that you read once or twice.
Actually some of my favorite novels included Obi-Wan, from The Cestus Deception to The Approaching Storm. I just like stories about cool but average power Jedi, working against evil plots and bad guys.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's a cosmic level Force power, which is impressive in a series which normally doesn't reach that level of power in fights. Jedi themselves only use powers on a much smaller scale collectively (Wall of Light) or with extreme prep and meditation (Battle Meditation).
This fresh evaluation of the TROS feat suggests your previous one was uncharitable; perhaps owing to an ancient grudge against a fictional character more important and powerful than Marka Ragnos. excellent
"All but a handful of Legends feats" though is misleading; ancient Sith used cosmic and high level Force powers consistently through the Legends continuity,
Nah, this is inaccurate.
Some Legends' ancient Sith demonstrated feats rivaling or exceeding what Sidious does in TROS, but none did so "consistently" with the lone exception of Failkorion, reigning queen of the notorious Legends nexus-whores who also gleefully slurped down the Force jizz of thousands of Sith peers on Nathema.
and none of them had to use the collective power of Disney's castrated Sith collection and two drained Force neophytes to manage it.
True; instead, Legends' ancient Sith tended to rely on rituals, nexuses, and Force-boosting technology to enhance what was otherwise brick-tier telekinesis. stoned
Whether Sidious relied on the power of dead Sith in TROS is unverified; Matt Martin of the Story Group said it could very well be metaphor, unlike Rey channeling the essence of Jedi.
In fact, prior to TROS, it's been a foundation of the Disney Wars cosmology that Sith Lords can't persist after death. Canon has only made two exceptions that require major asterisks: Momin, an ancient Sith whose powerless consciousness was siphoned into his mask after a freak Force accident/botched ritual, and Sidious himself, whose constraints have been discussed at length by Zamp and I elsewhere.
More to the point, ROS implies the collective power of all or an unknown number of mid tier Jedi (who aren't cosmic level in power) can overcome Nu Sheev. That's not really promising, is it?
Rey claims she's "all the Jedi," and unlike Sidious, the film presents strong evidence that this isn't mere metaphor. Factoring in the millennia in which the Sith operated under the numerically-prohibitive Rule of Two in contrast to the tens of thousands of Jedi Knights operating at any given time, we can safely conclude Rey had far more spiritual backup than did the Emperor (generously assuming his claim isn't metaphor).
So if you're asking me is it promising that canon Sidious could only be defeated by having his own power reflected upon him by an "unprecedented Force prodigy" in Rey (per the February edition of Star Wars Insider) channeling the power of all Jedi past, then I'd answer in the affirmative.
Really, DE Sidious is more impressive than this half baked relic, considering he could basically channel and making a space-time ripping wormhole of much more devastation. Oh, and he could wipe his own ass and fight.
Yeah, there's no question the Legends iteration of Sidious has better feats to his name than canon Sheev.
But canon generally operates on a couple levels down from Legends in terms of whacked-out feats, which is why it's impressive that this one from Sheev exceeds the vast majority that can be found in Legends.
This bit shouldn't be put so casually; it completely calls into question his ability to replicate it in any other situation or how much of it, if any, was his own power.
haermm
You're learning at last. This is the inevitable conclusion that often hamstrung Legends' ancient Sith.
That said, no one's dismissing anything. I'm simply pointing out that we don't know (a) if Exegol is a dark side nexus and (b) what bearing that has on the feat because (c) canon nexuses and Legends nexuses aren't the same beast.
In universe perspective from a Force noob, but not unfounded. He certainly didn't try it before he drained them. Maybe the Force tantric diode was the embodiment of Force electrical activity and all those Sith Lords in the Disneyverse are weaklings who rule through means unrelated to their personal strength.
The excruciatingly bad TROS novelization does wax poetic at length about how omg sick bro the Force dyad is. As far as whacked-out feats prior to the draining, it looked like Sidious TK'd the Star Destroyer fleet out of Exegol's surface. (That hasn't been confirmed, though.)
Eh, I'm not huge on Valkorian personally. I acknowledge that he's a contender and certainly one of the most impressive Dark Side users in Legends, but I don't particularly like him. Then again, I never did play the TOR expansion, which I heard was actually pretty good.
Yes, Failkorion is indeed extremely powerful, though I personally deduct points given his numerous advantages: 14 centuries of uninterrupted Force study, the borrowed power of thousands of Sith Lords as well as multiple Force nexuses, and the guy can still only get into Sheev-tier?
He's like a guy who's airlifted to the finish line of a footrace before the starting pistol even fires and still only manages to take the silver. haermm
In any case, Nu Sheev's power remains unverified, possibly unable to be replicated outside of a given settings, and a one trick pony at best.
For me personally, the notion that Sidious borrowed Force juice from elsewhere undermines the feat in my eyes for much the same reason that I shrugged at your ancient Sith.
However: even if Sheev borrowed power from external sources, that power is no less his than Failkorion's own. Or any other ancient Sith who has employed artificial enhancements to their own power.
In other words, your double standards are showing. excellent
I don't see him to be a serious threat to any top shelf Sith based on this. You're letting the scope of the single attack and your love for the character blind you to how one-dimensional it is in practice.
Nonsense. You're allowing your all-consuming hatred of a character drive you to employ falsehoods and double standards for the sake of other, less powerful and important characters like Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun.
Go back and watch the scene: superimpose the image of Ragnos over Sidious, pretend it's an ancient Sith Lord zapping 16,000 starships out of the sky, and have tissues and lotion handy. You'll need 'em.
I've always preferred the idea of Sidious being the most intellectual of the Sith lords, and the most devious. It's pretty much in his behavior and his name, and since GL didn't make him an overpowered asswhupper in personal combat (letting him be bested by Mace and Yoda rather easily), it strikes me as counterproductive to insist he is the end all based on a blurb which itself is an unsubstantiated interpretation of events we can physically observe and examine.
I know what idea you prefer. But much as how Ted Cruz might prefer the idea that climate change is an elaborate hoax by libtards and China, facts contradict even the most poignant wishes and deranged conspiracy theories.
The "blurbs," quotes, and all other source material which comprise the Star Wars saga are part of the continuity and are written by people who have also "physically observed and examined" the events in question.
So it's a matter of whether your personal interpretation of events and its ensuing assessment ("Sidious is not the most powerful Sith"😉 holds more weight than officially licensed material from the franchise itself. mmm
Also, a big LOL to the idea that Mace and Yoda "rather easily" defeated Sidious.
Really, the best depictions of Sidious are in the Clone Wars novels, where everyone dances to his tune without knowing it. He's a chessmaster, not a championship fighter.Sidious isn't shown to be this Force titan that defeats everyone. He's not imposing, undefeated, requiring a plot device or some such to overcome. Compare Sids to other movie bid bads and he comes out severely lacking.
He's not Thanos.
He's not Agent Smith.
He's not General Zod.
Hell, he's not even Roy Batty in that regards.
Every Big Bad you cited with the possible exception of Smith is more than a mere physical juggernaut and is defined as much by their cunning and willpower as anything. ermm
Pretty much everything about Sidious is meant to embody his power as much as his cunning.
The party line of "scaling" and such is pretty telling. You have to use bizarre justifications to maintain the illusion and the simpletons reinforce your illusions because they act based on feeling instead of logic. Any sustained counter-argument to the status quo is met with personal attacks, misdirection, and blatant [b]overwhelming confirmation bias.Wait, **** it. Now I'm describing Trump and his fans.[/b]
Or the pre-Lightsnake era of KMC. excellent
I don't think it's the best thing ever, but it's the only good thing to come out of Disney so far.
I feel the opposite. I appreciate the effort to try to give us a Forceless, grittier take on the Star Wars universe, because I believe it's important. But I sincerely think it's overrated. Is it bad? No. Just boring.
Fallen Order was actually really good. Probably the best SW experience I've had in a game since KotOR. They nailed everything that made the OT interesting without retreading old ground too much.
Agreed. The world-building was incredible and I loved Second Sister. 👆
The only good book novelization was ANH's, and that's because it's basically the original script, given stilted life by Allan Dean Foster.
You're one of three people living who hate Stover's ROTS novel, which still surprises me after all these years. You gotta let that Sheev hatred go and appreciate it as a work of fiction.
Tell you what, you should pirate the book, import it into a Word doc, CTRL+F "Sidious" and "Palpatine" and replace them with "Ragnos" or "Kun."
Do that and get back to me. I defy you to say the book is shit then.
2004-2019. RIP, SWVF.Although to be fair, it was on life support for a lot longer than a year.
Yeah, probably 2-3. mmm
Either way, though, welcome back. It's nice to kick your ass utterlyspar with you again after all these years.
This fresh evaluation of the TROS feat suggests your previous one was uncharitable; perhaps owing to an ancient grudge against a fictional character more important and powerful than Marka Ragnos.
Marka Ragnos kept order on his deathbed; Sidious pratfalls like an insurance fraudster. It's okay.
Nah, this is inaccurate.Some Legends' ancient Sith demonstrated feats rivaling or exceeding what Sidious does in TROS, but none did so "consistently" with the lone exception of Failkorion, reigning queen of the notorious Legends nexus-whores who also gleefully slurped down the Force jizz of thousands of Sith peers on Nathema.
Thought Bombs, Giga Drains, star-core chucking ships, and pulling starships from orbit, and holding a body fragmented thousands of times over with sheer will not doing it for you?
True; instead, Legends' ancient Sith tended to rely on rituals, nexuses, and Force-boosting technology to enhance what was otherwise brick-tier telekinesis.Whether Sidious relied on the power of dead Sith in TROS is unverified; Matt Martin of the Story Group said it could very well be metaphor, unlike Rey channeling the essence of Jedi.
In fact, prior to TROS, it's been a foundation of the Disney Wars cosmology that Sith Lords can't persist after death. Canon has only made two exceptions that require major asterisks: Momin, an ancient Sith whose powerless consciousness was siphoned into his mask after a freak Force accident/botched ritual, and Sidious himself, whose constraints have been discussed at length by Zamp and I elsewhere.
If it were just a metaphor, that might be a good thing. Kind of puts the Force diode plot event in a different light. A dumb light, one that illuminates what a dumb dumb idea it is, but a light nonetheless. After all, we've survived midi-chlorians.
So the conclusion I'm forced to consider, if this is indeed the case, is that Kylo and Ren together have the collective power to enable Nu Sheev to shock an entire fleet on a dark side nexus.
Rey claims she's "all the Jedi," and unlike Sidious, the film presents strong evidence that this isn't mere metaphor. Factoring in the millennia in which the Sith operated under the numerically-prohibitive Rule of Two in contrast to the tens of thousands of Jedi Knights operating at any given time, we can safely conclude Rey had far more spiritual backup than did the Emperor (generously assuming his claim isn't metaphor).So if you're asking me is it promising that canon Sidious could only be defeated by having his own power reflected upon him by an "unprecedented Force prodigy" in Rey (per the February edition of Star Wars Insider) channeling the power of all Jedi past, then I'd answer in the affirmative.
It really depends how much of this language is meant to be figurative or not. Unless Disney has retconned GL hard, the Sith have only been in hiding/Rule of 2 for a thousand years before TPM. There could be a couple hundred or tens of thousands of Sith. Considering they built a temple in isolation ages before the events of the films implies they've been in operation for a couple thousand years, and didn't always run just two guys all along.
In any case, here's how I break it down:
1. Nu Sheev is being metaphorical; Rey isn't. He's insanely powerful (if stationary).
2. Nu Sheev isn't being metaphorical; Rey isn't. The Jedi are collectively stronger (which fits their depiction in the stories).
3. Nu Sheev isn't being metaphorical; Rey is. He's a tool.
4. Nu Sheev is being metaphorical and so is Rey. Force Diode grants prestige levels in Force use.
The problem with the first one is that it requires clarification: 1) how did he get powerful compared to his PT/OT form? and 2) how much of that power is stolen from the uber diode couple? And always present, how much of that is about the nexus he's on?
The second one seems more reasonable given thematic reasons, good storytelling, and the idea that the good guys win in the end. The Jedi shouldn't be individually that much stronger than most Sith; they are strongest as a group, working in harmony against selfish chaos.
Regarding the Rey wank quote, I'd need some context.
Yeah, there's no question the Legends iteration of Sidious has better feats to his name than canon Sheev.But canon generally operates on a couple levels down from Legends in terms of whacked-out feats, which is why it's impressive that this one from Sheev exceeds the vast majority that can be found in Legends.
Too bad it's not combat viable. Too many variables. Making Nu Sheev a cripple was dumb. Hell, they should have just gone with a complete young clone, had some fencing master sub in for the fight scenes, and made it epic. Or had Kylo/Ren doing crazy TK against him. You know, something fun.
You can literally only argue Nu Sheev on Exegol having drained Kylo and Rey to validate this Force lightning against any combatant in SWFV. The feat is done once, in a bubble.
You're learning at last. This is the inevitable conclusion that often hamstrung Legends' ancient Sith.That said, no one's dismissing anything. I'm simply pointing out that we don't know (a) if Exegol is a dark side nexus and (b) what bearing that has on the feat because (c) canon nexuses and Legends nexuses aren't the same beast.
Nu Sheev is receiving anywhere from two to four boosts in the 'fight'. The nebulous aid of maybe-Sith ghosts, drains of two Force diode peoples, and the homeworld of the Sith. The idea that the latter wouldn't be a nexus at all is suspect. Also, how are Disney nexuses different now?
Yes, Failkorion is indeed extremely powerful, though I personally deduct points given his numerous advantages: 14 centuries of uninterrupted Force study, the borrowed power of thousands of Sith Lords as well as multiple Force nexuses, and the guy can still only get into Sheev-tier?He's like a guy who's airlifted to the finish line of a footrace before the starting pistol even fires and still only manages to take the silver.
You're right. Being inferior to two Jedi Masters in a time of relative peace, being thrown about like a chewtoy, having to kill your more powerful master in his sleep, and then having to keep weaker buddies around for fear of being overthrown is epic Sheev all over. Good thing Vitiate dominated a planet before his balls fully dropped, led the strongest and most successful military victory against the Jedi/Republic since Sadow nearly toppled it in an afternoon using his Meditation Sphere, kept powerful Force users on his payroll and under his thumb, spent his offhours siring children and ruling a backup empire, and made Revan look like a *****. Also, he could fight and you know, wipe his ass.
Shit, I don't even like the guy and I have to admit you are lowballing hard here.
For me personally, the notion that Sidious borrowed Force juice from elsewhere undermines the feat in my eyes for much the same reason that I shrugged at your ancient Sith.However: even if Sheev borrowed power from external sources, that power is no less his than Failkorion's own. Or any other ancient Sith who has employed artificial enhancements to their own power.
In other words, your double standards are showing.
Vitiate's power drained is retained and has been for some time. It's not situational in this context. We simply don't know if Nu Sheev's boost from the Sith ghosts or nexus is verified and we don't know how much they affect his showing. You can't argue it as persistant Nu Sheev, because he's only seen in one setting, in one situation, using a power after being boosted by relative unknowns.
It would be like if Vitiate never did anything and then suddenly ate his planet and moved a blackhole while standing on Korriban at the heart of it's most tainted area before being destroyed by the amazing Force diode duo of Revan and Revan. You could argue that feat in particular is suspect. Why can't you acknowledge that here?
Nonsense. You're allowing your all-consuming hatred of a character drive you to employ falsehoods and double standards for the sake of other, less powerful and important characters like Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun.Go back and watch the scene: superimpose the image of Ragnos over Sidious, pretend it's an ancient Sith Lord zapping 16,000 starships out of the sky, and have tissues and lotion handy. You'll need 'em.
Ragnos has several accolades about his power that aren't in a single instance or vacuum, and Kun has even more. Kun was noted by Veitch to be DE Sidious level, which using your own logic means he could roflstomp crippled shitbritches ROS Sids.
Need more kool-aid here.
I know what idea you prefer. But much as how Ted Cruz might prefer the idea that climate change is an elaborate hoax by libtards and China, facts contradict even the most poignant wishes and deranged conspiracy theories.The "blurbs," quotes, and all other source material which comprise the Star Wars saga are part of the continuity and are written by people who have also "physically observed and examined" the events in question.
So it's a matter of whether your personal interpretation of events and its ensuing assessment ("Sidious is not the most powerful Sith"😉 holds more weight than officially licensed material from the franchise itself.
Also, a big LOL to the idea that Mace and Yoda "rather easily" defeated Sidious.
1. The blurbs and quotes are secondary sources which interpret the actual visible source material and are subject to glossing, inaccuracy, or in some cases in-universe presented bias. You cling to them because they are easier to maintain than actually going over fights point-by-point.
2. Mace front kicked Sids' saber out of his hand. That's amateur hour 101 in swordfighting. Yoda humiliated him with a saber and disarmed him, then Sids couldn't overcome him with the Force. If it wasn't for the arena, Yoda would have dominated. On flat ground (Sid's office), he did so with ease. I presented, point by point, the entire saber duel for evidence. You at the time faltered in your quest to elevate Sids above all in the face of it.
Every Big Bad you cited with the possible exception of Smith is more than a mere physical juggernaut and is defined as much by their cunning and willpower as anything.Pretty much everything about Sidious is meant to embody his power as much as his cunning.
No, each Big Bad I presented was virtually unchallenged or indomitable enough to present a serious threat to all comers in their given franchise. Sidious doesn't do that. He underperforms in saber combat, dominates neophytes and mediocre Jedi at best, relies heavily on his brain to isolate him from serious threats, and conclusively lost to Mace and Yoda in fighting ability.
Compare this with Exar Kun, pre-KotOR era Revan, Vitiate, peak Bane, Nihilus, or even Malgus. The only thing holding RotS Sids back from losing every SWVF forum against those Force giants is blurbs and bias. Not evidence.
Or the pre-Lightsnake era of KMC.
Some standard Whataboutism there.
I feel the opposite. I appreciate the effort to try to give us a Forceless, grittier take on the Star Wars universe, because I believe it's important. But I sincerely think it's overrated. Is it bad? No. Just boring.
Hrm. I can't say I agree, but taste is subjective.
Agreed. The world-building was incredible and I loved Second Sister.
Very much so. And the ending was solid.
You're one of three people living who hate Stover's ROTS novel, which still surprises me after all these years. You gotta let that Sheev hatred go and appreciate it as a work of fiction.Tell you what, you should pirate the book, import it into a Word doc, CTRL+F "Sidious" and "Palpatine" and replace them with "Ragnos" or "Kun."
Do that and get back to me. I defy you to say the book is shit then.
I hate that it's inaccurate and based on the script, which causes SWVF contradictions in debates. For years, people have cherry picked that book to fit their bias and ignoring anything with didn't jive. If Return of the King had an entire chapter dedicated to why Ecthelion is the strongest elf ever because he defeated Gothmog and compares him favorably against Fingolfin or Feanor, I'd hate that too.
Yeah, probably 2-3.Either way, though, welcome back. It's nice to kick your ass utterlyspar with you again after all these years.
It is fun to dive in again, even if briefly to the world of e-debates.
Originally posted by ZentrexYou use the term "survive" more generously then it deserves. There has been a constant, slow-drip loss of activity on the site, since ~the late 2000's, that it's never recovered from.
I think you forget, good sir, that this website has been around since the turn of the century, and has survived the popularization of social media, social networking, gaming communities, and many other, far more popular forums. Personally, I'm more of an IRC man, myself. But I doubt this forum will die anytime soon.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Marka Ragnos kept order on his deathbed; Sidious pratfalls like an insurance fraudster. It's okay.
One is the archvillain of the saga, the most important, successful, and powerful Sith Lord of all time.
The other one has no worthwhile feats or accomplishments to his name and, on a good day, aspires to be a vague annotation in a compendium somewhere.
No comparison favors Mark here. excellent
Thought Bombs, Giga Drains, star-core chucking ships,
These would indeed be some of the feats I alluded to. 👆
and pulling starships from orbit, and holding a body fragmented thousands of times over with sheer will not doing it for you?
But these aren't. No, pulling down starships and Sion's shenanigans don't remotely compare to taking out Sheev taking out 16,000 starships. haermm
So the conclusion I'm forced to consider, if this is indeed the case, is that Kylo and Ren together have the collective power to enable Nu Sheev to shock an entire fleet on a dark side nexus.
That's what the ROS novelization suggests, yes. Though it bears repeating that we don't know if Exegol is a dark side nexus, let alone one that empowers dark siders.
It really depends how much of this language is meant to be figurative or not. Unless Disney has retconned GL hard, the Sith have only been in hiding/Rule of 2 for a thousand years before TPM. There could be a couple hundred or tens of thousands of Sith. Considering they built a temple in isolation ages before the events of the films implies they've been in operation for a couple thousand years, and didn't always run just two guys all along.
Disney has maintained George's general vision about the Sith backstory.
TL;DR: At one point, the Sith were plentiful in number, originating from the planet Moraband (aka Korriban), and challenging the Jedi throughout the galaxy. At one point, they even conquered Coruscant before the Jedi defeated them. The surviving Sith Lord, Darth Bane, created the Rule of Two.
In any case, here's how I break it down:
Your breakdowns are always entertaining. stoned
1. Nu Sheev is being metaphorical; Rey isn't. He's insanely powerful (if stationary).2. Nu Sheev isn't being metaphorical; Rey isn't. The Jedi are collectively stronger (which fits their depiction in the stories).
3. Nu Sheev isn't being metaphorical; Rey is. He's a tool.
4. Nu Sheev is being metaphorical and so is Rey. Force Diode grants prestige levels in Force use.
The problem with the first one is that it requires clarification: 1) how did he get powerful compared to his PT/OT form? and 2) how much of that power is stolen from the uber diode couple? And always present, how much of that is about the nexus he's on?
The second one seems more reasonable given thematic reasons, good storytelling, and the idea that the good guys win in the end. The Jedi shouldn't be individually that much stronger than most Sith; they are strongest as a group, working in harmony against selfish chaos.
Regarding the Rey wank quote, I'd need some context.
We know Rey's "all the Jedi" isn't metaphorical because both the film and novelization depict her connecting to past Jedi. The only unanswered questions are whether Sheev's line is metaphorical, whether Exegol is a dark side nexus, and whether it empowered Sheev.
Too bad it's not combat viable.
Too bad you have nothing to support this notion beyond desperate hopes. excellent
Too many variables. Making Nu Sheev a cripple was dumb. Hell, they should have just gone with a complete young clone, had some fencing master sub in for the fight scenes, and made it epic. Or had Kylo/Ren doing crazy TK against him. You know, something fun.
Sidious was only crippled prior to rejuvenating himself with that sweet Dyad juice. Afterwards, he was mobile. But prior to that, he was more than capable of curbstomping Reylo together when they faced off (as evidenced by his casual stasis + disarming trick), even while dangling majestically from a mechanical arm.
You can literally only argue Nu Sheev on Exegol having drained Kylo and Rey to validate this Force lightning against any combatant in SWFV. The feat is done once, in a bubble.
A feat's a feat. No one's claiming that pre-dyad Sidious could zap a starfleet out of orbit. Like Failkorion, the Emperor's powers were likely enhanced through artificial means.
Nu Sheev is receiving anywhere from two to four boosts in the 'fight'. The nebulous aid of maybe-Sith ghosts, drains of two Force diode peoples, and the homeworld of the Sith. The idea that the latter wouldn't be a nexus at all is suspect. Also, how are Disney nexuses different now?
Sheev could be receiving anywhere from one to four boosts, as many of the Legends' ancient Sith did.*
In Disney Wars, dark side nexuses are known to impart feelings of misgiving and dread to non-dark siders, but are not to my knowledge explicitly stated to make dark siders generally stronger.
You're right. Being inferior to two Jedi Masters in a time of relative peace,
Multiple sources attribute the Emperor superiority over Yoda. You need to substantiate that "peacetime" makes Force users weaker.
being thrown about like a chewtoy,
Yes, thank God Vitiate's beyond such ignominy.
Spoiler:
I had to edit this to put the link in. Playback isn't working. It's this one right hurrrrr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pwPRbwaT2A
having to kill your more powerful master in his sleep,
Not sure if you recall, but Plagueis woke up when Sidious attacked him.
and then having to keep weaker buddies around for fear of being overthrown is epic Sheev all over.
I was thinking more along the lines of not having 14 centuries to study, thousands of Sith Lords to absorb, and not draining the power of at least two planets and still having a lethal feat/accolade combination that makes him Failkorion's peer at a minimum is what makes Sheev so epic. excellent
Good thing Vitiate dominated a planet before his balls fully dropped,
Get back to me when he dominates the galaxy.
The only balls dropping here are mine on your chin. naughty
led the strongest and most successful military victory against the Jedi/Republic since Sadow nearly toppled it in an afternoon using his Meditation Sphere,
After a thousand years of build up and preparation, resulting in a stalemate and ensuing Cold War because Revan psychically manipulated him into it.
kept powerful Force users on his payroll and under his thumb,
And siphoning their power to fuel his own, per the SWTOR Encyclopedia, continuing his trend of seeking artificial enhancement in lieu of his own endowment.
spent his offhours siring children and ruling a backup empire,
Meanwhile, Sidious orchestrated the development of the Confederacy of Independent Systems personally in less than two decades, all while politicking and legislating in the Republic Senate under the noses of ten thousand mindreading warrior monks a block down the road.
and made Revan look like a *****.
Revan went toe-to-toe with Failkorion in the novel and psychically manipulated him for centuries. ermm
Also, he could fight and you know, wipe his ass.
Citation needed.
And how is that possible with your head lodged in it? mmm
Shit, I don't even like the guy and I have to admit you are lowballing hard here.
It's lowballing to remind you that Failkorion was 1,400 years old, drained the power of thousands of Sith Lords to increase his capacity as a Force user, and subsequently multiple planets?
Vitiate's power drained is retained and has been for some time. It's not situational in this context. We simply don't know if Nu Sheev's boost from the Sith ghosts or nexus is verified and we don't know how much they affect his showing. You can't argue it as persistant Nu Sheev, because he's only seen in one setting, in one situation, using a power after being boosted by relative unknowns.
It would be like if Vitiate never did anything and then suddenly ate his planet and moved a blackhole while standing on Korriban at the heart of it's most tainted area before being destroyed by the amazing Force diode duo of Revan and Revan. You could argue that feat in particular is suspect. Why can't you acknowledge that here?
Settle down there, Scarecrow. That's a hell of a strawman you've concocted.
I have repeatedly said the fact that the Emperor may have been enhanced via external, artificial means undermines the impressiveness of the feat for me personally, given my historic disdain for nexus whores.
That doesn't mean the feat didn't happen or that its scope and potency doesn't rival all but a handful of Legends' feats.
Ragnos has several accolades about his power that aren't in a single instance or vacuum, and Kun has even more.
Your denial is at its apex. Sidious has more accolades about his power than Kun and Ragnos combined. haermm
But for the record, the very fact that Ragnos has literally no feats to his name besides getting stomped by an untrained neophyte on a dark side nexus after having been spoonfed the collective power of multiple Force nexuses across the galaxy is the very definition of a vacuum. stoned
Kun was noted by Veitch to be DE Sidious level, which using your own logic means he could roflstomp crippled shitbritches ROS Sids.
You should spray some WD-40 on your Gotcha snare; it didn't quite spring:
Because I said that Legends!Sidious has better feats to his name than canon!Sidious does. Veitch opining that Kun is on Sidious's level... isn't a feat.
Which, "per my logic," offers us nothing on Kun's relationship to canon!Sidious.
Need more kool-aid here.
Between presiding over a cult of weirdos defined by their estranged relationship with reality and citing Kool-Aid as your drink of choice, I gotta applaud your Jim Jones impression.
It's on point. excellent
1. The blurbs and quotes are secondary sources which interpret the actual visible source material and are subject to glossing, inaccuracy, or in some cases in-universe presented bias.
You mean what you're doing now and have always done? haermm
Worst-case scenario: the ultimate difference between your interpretation and that of all the various quotes, blurbs, and sourcebooks is that they have an LFL sticker on them that identifies theirs as authoritative.
Yours, on the other hand...
You cling to them because they are easier to maintain than actually going over fights point-by-point.
No, I refer to them because they're official, authoritative guides. Many adjectives can be ascribed to your own interpretation of the films and the lore, but "official" and "authoritative" aren't among them.
2. Mace front kicked Sids' saber out of his hand. That's amateur hour 101 in swordfighting. Yoda humiliated him with a saber and disarmed him, then Sids couldn't overcome him with the Force. If it wasn't for the arena, Yoda would have dominated. On flat ground (Sid's office), he did so with ease. I presented, point by point, the entire saber duel for evidence. You at the time faltered in your quest to elevate Sids above all in the face of it.
I forgot that you moonlight as an expert lightsaber duelist. mmm
It's always been strange to me that the guy who dismisses Nick Gillard's assessment on the fight choreography and the relative strengths and weaknesses of the various combatants is also the same guy who thinks his own personal analysis is definitive.
No, each Big Bad I presented was virtually unchallenged or indomitable enough to present a serious threat to all comers in their given franchise. Sidious doesn't do that. He underperforms in saber combat, dominates neophytes and mediocre Jedi at best, relies heavily on his brain to isolate him from serious threats, and conclusively lost to Mace and Yoda in fighting ability.
And Sidious is the archvillain of the Star Wars saga, the man before whom powerful, iconic villains including Darths Maul, Tyranus, and Vader kneel before in fear. The man who overthrew a Republic and Jedi Order that had weathered or defeated all his forebears. The man whose only fight in The Clone Wars was designed around the premise of his unparalleled badassery. The man whom, in the sequel series Rebels, was a threat to all of time and space by trying to break into a cosmic realm of the Force known as the World Between Worlds. In Legends, he's the guy who telepathically enslaves entire planets and transforms them into dark side nexuses, buries Super Star Destroyers beneath heavily populated ecumenopolises, and can trigger Force storms which can devour fleets and planetary surfaces with mere thought and inclination. All without centuries of study or needing thousands of Sith Lords to OM-NOM, Force-boosting technology to enhance, or multiple nexuses to empower.
The man whom threatens the very cosmic fabric of the Force in a way no character in canon or Legends has and whose death brings back that balance. excellent
His CV is comparable within the context of Star Wars to that any of the others do in their own franchises lmfao.
Compare this with Exar Kun, pre-KotOR era Revan, Vitiate, peak Bane, Nihilus, or even Malgus. The only thing holding RotS Sids back from losing every SWVF forum against those Force giants is blurbs and bias. Not evidence.
Or, more accurately, the only thing saving Sidious from losing to those footnotes"Force giants" is... the mountains of valid evidence, ranging from books to graphic novels to sourcebooks, that you personally don't want to consider, including a universally-acclaimed novelization by Matthew Stover that you openly loathe because it doesn't conform to your debunked Vs. debate opinions. stoned
Some standard Whataboutism there.
If by Whataboutism you mean "uncomfortably accurate assessment," then agreed.
Hrm. I can't say I agree, but taste is subjective.
Indeed. Basically, I fear Filoni (who is fine but overhyped) brought some of the creative shortcomings he brought to The Clone Wars and Rebels. I can see his fingerprints on The Mandalorian. It needs more Favreau. mmm
Very much so. And the ending was solid.
The
Spoiler:stuff was badass, but came out of left field. I think the Second Sister would've been a fine Big Bad from start to finish.
Vader
I hate that it's inaccurate and based on the script, which causes SWVF contradictions in debates. For years, people have cherry picked that book to fit their bias and ignoring anything with didn't jive. If Return of the King had an entire chapter dedicated to why Ecthelion is the strongest elf ever because he defeated Gothmog and compares him favorably against Fingolfin or Feanor, I'd hate that too.
Jabs aside, you really shouldn't judge a well-written book because it doesn't share your hatred of Sidious. That's such a niche and insignificantly specific point of contention.
If you said you hated the book because you don't like purple prose, then fair enough.
It is fun to dive in again, even if briefly to the world of e-debates.
Like strangers passing in the night. 😍