The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Autokrat
Well lets see...

Illegal West Bank settlements.
Destruction of Palestinian homes.
Displacement of the Palestinian people.
Discrimination against Arabs living in Israel.
Inhumane blockade of Gaza.

Its a powerful thing to hear an actual Israeli citizen condemn his own nation.

You would need to back some of that up, of course. Easy to say in a broad sense, but when you actually read PAST the headlines, you see it isn't nearly as dire as you would like us to believe. The final two on the lists aren't even provable. They are clearly opinion, and written thusly.

Its not that big a deal to hear someone condemn his own country actually, and it doesn't make him right. Haven't you lived in THIS country for the last 10 years? Nothing but condemnations of the country from roughly half the population the entire time, first the liberal half, and now the conservative.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Well lets see...

Illegal West Bank settlements.
Destruction of Palestinian homes.
Displacement of the Palestinian people.
Discrimination against Arabs living in Israel.
Inhumane blockade of Gaza.

Hmm, I think that about sums it up.

Most of this information comes from my Religious Studies courses (my emphasis in Sociology is in Religious Studies) and several conferences I have attended that were hosted jointly by Jews and Palestinians that recognize the crimes that Israel has committed and is continuing to commit.

Its a powerful thing to hear an actual Israeli citizen condemn his own nation.

And no, I don't use Al-Jazeera for these issues. I tend to use the BBC, which is far more impartial then they are when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. [/B]

It's equally powerful to hear a Palestinian condemning his own people for the shit they've caused Israel for 60+ years. Also, I'd like for you to explain the bolded text. Lol@inhumane btw, that's not for you to judge.

Discrimination of Arab People= Go.
I ask because I've met Israeli Arabs who said they would rather be in Israel than any of the other 23 Arab nations.

Displacement of the Palestinian people.
Want to be more specific here?

Illegal West Bank settlements.
This is debatable at best but as far as I'm concerned, while Israel hasn't handled very well, they haven't done much wrong here.

Inhumane blockade of Gaza
I've addressed this with LOGIC, not emotion.

Originally posted by truejedi
You would need to back some of that up, of course. Easy to say in a broad sense, but when you actually read PAST the headlines, you see it isn't nearly as dire as you would like us to believe. The final two on the lists aren't even provable. They are clearly opinion, and written thusly.

Its not that big a deal to hear someone condemn his own country actually, and it doesn't make him right. Haven't you lived in THIS country for the last 10 years? Nothing but condemnations of the country from roughly half the population the entire time, first the liberal half, and now the conservative.

I'm not sufficiently motivated to give you a history lesson on the creation of Israel and Zionism and just what happened in 1948. In short, a bunch of people migrated to a land that wasn't theirs, forced some of the original population out, while the other half left "voluntarily."

Although, there is one rather interesting aspect to early Zionism in the 19th century; it was secular movement. It was opposed by Orthodox Jews since they believed that only God had the authority to establish Israel again.

Originally posted by Autokrat
[B]I'm not sufficiently motivated to give you a history lesson on the creation of Israel and Zionism and just what happened in 1948. In short, a bunch of people migrated to a land that wasn't theirs, forced some of the original population out, while the other half left "voluntarily."

Also, I REALLY have to agree with TJ, as I'm beginning to doubt your sources when you say "the other half left voluntarily"? Really? Is this before or after they terrorized the Israelis for a better part of 50 years?

In short, Israel's survival is its defense as it is surrounded by Arabs that want to see the country disappear. They acted exactly the way they were supposed to act and I would expect no less from them. They didn't do anything wrong, in fact they did everything by the book. If you want to play this "inhumane" card, then you wouldn't be an authority on whether or not you could call it "inhumane".

TJ, I think that maybe you are someone that needs to move beyond the headlines. I've had the privilege of speaking with friends and their relatives who have been to Palestinian lands on church-aid trips. They tell stories about how Palestinian children are jeered and cursed at, and even attacked with thrown stones, on their way to schools. They tell about how Israel knocks down schools and granaries because they were built by Hamas. They talk about Israelis building homes on Palestinian soil and expecting military protection to follow them.

This is not to say that the Palestinian people are blameless; those schools built by Hamas do sometimes serve as weapon caches. The waves of terrorism do impede the peace process. It isn't even clear that the Palestinians want peace; Al Jazeera reported that Hamas put out a statement indicating that its sole purpose is to erase it from the map.

It is difficult for me, however, to reconcile the Victim defense that is so often used by Israel with the distribution of power in the region. It is not the Palestinian people that are knocking down schools. It is not a nuclear power that is holding tenuously to traditional lifestyles. There has to be some hesitation to side with Israel when they are the ones in power in the region; responsibility for the situation lies with them more than with the peasants being oppressed.

(I think there is plenty of fault to go around.)

If i remember correctly from history, they divided up all of Europe in 1948. The concept of whose land was whose didn't exactly apply at the time.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
TJ, I think that maybe you are someone that needs to move beyond the headlines. I've had the privilege of speaking with friends and their relatives who have been to Palestinian lands on church-aid trips. They tell stories about how Palestinian children are jeered and cursed at, and even attacked with thrown stones, on their way to schools. They tell about how Israel knocks down schools and granaries because they were built by Hamas. They talk about Israelis building homes on Palestinian soil and expecting military protection to follow them.

This is not to say that the Palestinian people are blameless; those schools built by Hamas do sometimes serve as weapon caches. The waves of terrorism do impede the peace process. It isn't even clear that the Palestinians want peace; Al Jazeera reported that Hamas put out a statement indicating that its sole purpose is to erase it from the map.

It is difficult for me, however, to reconcile the Victim defense that is so often used by Israel with the distribution of power in the region. It is not the Palestinian people that are knocking down schools. It is not a nuclear power that is holding tenuously to traditional lifestyles. There has to be some hesitation to side with Israel when they are the ones in power in the region; responsibility for the situation lies with them more than with the peasants being oppressed.

Now, why can't Israel use the Victim defense? Seeing as they're surrounded by countries and millions of Arabs/Muslims that are itching to take them out, whereas these poor defenseless Arabs have the support of organizations like Hamas, and the choice to go into any one of thsoe 23 nations? Because their entire country depends on defense? Because the last 50+ years of instigation has been so nearly one sided, it would be impossible to blame both sides equally.

That's the problem right there, DS. The whole thing is just a blame game.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That's the problem right there, DS. The whole thing is just a blame game.

No, the problem is, the WRONG side is being blamed. Neither side is perfect but only ONE side instigates it.

Anyone here listen to Toto?

Toto-Africa. You're too young for them.

DS
Toto-Africa. You're too young for them.

I'm technically too young for Journey, too. But I'm really getting into Toto. Hell of a band, though Journey is still number one in my heart.

I BLESS THE RAINS DOWN IN AFRICAAAAAAAAAAA, GONNA TAKE SOME TIME TO DO THE THINGS WE NEVER HA-AAH-AVVEEEE!

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm technically too young for Journey, too. But I'm really getting into Toto. Hell of a band, though Journey is still number one in my heart.

I BLESS THE RAINS DOWN IN AFRICAAAAAAAAAAA, GONNA TAKE SOME TIME TO DO THE THINGS WE NEVER HA-AAH-AVVEEEE!

To be honest, that's the only one of their songs that I like.. I'm hitting up Psychedelic Furs now.

GOD DAMN that hhkn guy is irritating as ****.

DS
To be honest, that's the only one of their songs that I like.. I'm hitting up Psychedelic Furs now.

Rosanna's pretty good, so is Bottom of Your Soul.

OFM
GOD DAMN that hhkn guy is irritating as ****.

Put him on it ignore.

[Palpatine]Do it![/Palpatine]

Originally posted by Gideon
Rosanna's pretty good, so is Bottom of Your Soul.

Nothing beats the Boss, E.J., Scorpions, Guns N Roses, and Billy Joel.

DS
Nothing beats the Boss,

Bruce is okay.

DS
E.J.,

Who?

DS
Scorpions,

👆

DS
Guns N Roses,

👇

DS
and Billy Joel.

He's right there with Bruce.

Elton John.

DS
Elton John.

He's excellent.

Scorpions > Elton John > Billy Joel & Bruce > [x infinity] > Guns N Roses