The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Nephthys3,287 pages

Whats this with Luke now?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Speculation. Where are you getting this? Everything so far in The Old Republic has underlined that these are the True Sith.

Unlike most people here, I've read the TOTJ era comics, specifically "The Golden Age of the Sith" and "The Fall of the Sith Empire". Almost all people on the ruling council of Sith Lords are named and die at some point in the storyline. Since the Sith lived by the idea that the strongest shall rule, it stands to reason that the later Sith Emperor, who came from the Ancient Sith Empire and not being among the Council members, was just one of the lesser force users of the Empire under Ragnos and later Sadow / Kressh.


If by 'some' you mean everything on Korriban and Malachor, then yeah. Thats a hell of alot more than other recognised Sith (Ulic Qel'Droma). And yeah, 'maybe'. You don't know shit about how much Revan was taught by the Emperor. We do know that when he returned to the Republic, he did so as Darth Revan, Dark Lord of the Sith.

I really hate it when people start attributing stuff to characters in a Gideonesque fashion by ignoring information and drawing illogical conclusions. First: The Jedi almost drove the Sith to extinction, which leads to the assumption that much knowledge was simple destroyed, either by the destruction of recordings (Holocrons, scrolls, whatever) or by the death of the people who invented it. This is confirmed by "The Essential Guide to the Force" on several occassions.

The next thing is, that Korriban was a grave world. And we saw what Revan found in the previously sealed graves of the most powerful Sith: clearly not giant troves of knowledge but just some helpful gimmics and the information where the Star Forge is located. And Malachor? He discovered the planet towards the end of the Mandalorian Wars. How should he have learned anything there in the time span of about six months?

And the Sith Emperor wouldn't have told Revan anything that would have enabled Revan to overcome him in the future.

Again, where the fvck are you getting this? What makes you think that he only gave him a fraction of what he knew?

Again: The time factor. Bane just had some days to deal with whatever Revan left behind in the holocron. The assumption that one can learn "everything" from another being in the matter of days appears to be rather off.

Furthermore: The lack of knowledge transfer from the "old" to the "new" Sith is pretty clearly demonstrated by the decline of the arts that once coined the force use in the Sith Empire: Sith magic and Sith alchemy. As a matter of fact, Sith magic was just rarely practiced (e.g. by Zannah) much as Sith alchemy (where Sidious and probably Plagueis are the only known users). The likes of Vader, Dooku and Maul - much like the movies as a whole - are pretty ignorant towards the arts of the ancient Sith.


The Sith are a society. Not all of the people can be 'evil'. Darth Thanaton for instance was a pretty cool dude. He had an alien buddy that he was friends with and everything ( a slave he frees in the story). Unfortunately he had to kill said alien buddy when he heard something he shouldn't of, and he did so out of loyalty to the Empire and with a deep sense of regret, apologising as he did it.

So of course the Sith can't be 'good guys', but that doesn't automatically make them evil or douchebags.

So the guy killed his buddy because he heared something that he shouldn't have heared? That's a great example for somebody not being evil. 🙄

The Sith society is based upon the reign of the strongest. As such, the higher echelons within the are usually not filled by nice guys or morally obliged people. Furthermore they are encouraged to utilize their (dark) feelings in order to use the force. So by our usual view of "good" and "evil", most of them would count as "evil", even if they think themselves that they are acting "good".

Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]Unlike most people here, I've read the TOTJ era comics, specifically "The Golden Age of the Sith" and "The Fall of the Sith Empire". Almost all people on the ruling council of Sith Lords are named and die at some point in the storyline. Since the Sith lived by the idea that the strongest shall rule, it stands to reason that the later Sith Emperor, who came from the Ancient Sith Empire and not being among the Council members, was just one of the lesser force users of the Empire under Ragnos and later Sadow / Kressh.

That's exactly who it was. According to a bunch of TOR videos from the Jedi Chronicler of the time, the ancient sith spirits did not approve of the sith emperor's rule which is why they crowned Exar Kun. I think we all thought that it was Kressh the Younger at first but then they gave him an idiotic backstory.

I really hate it when people start attributing stuff to characters in a Gideonesque fashion by ignoring information and drawing illogical conclusions. First: The Jedi almost drove the Sith to extinction, which leads to the assumption that much knowledge was simple destroyed, either by the destruction of recordings (Holocrons, scrolls, whatever) or by the death of the people who invented it. This is confirmed by "The Essential Guide to the Force" on several occassions.

It's also unclear how much knowledge was salvaged on the quick exit to Korriban and how much knowledge was still lurking on Korriban through the ages. Remember that during the KOTOR games, much knowledge was still gained on Korriban.

The next thing is, that Korriban was a grave world. And we saw what Revan found in the previously sealed graves of the most powerful Sith: clearly not giant troves of knowledge but just some helpful gimmics and the information where the Star Forge is located. And Malachor? He discovered the planet towards the end of the Mandalorian Wars. How should he have learned anything there in the time span of about six months?

Now we're talking learning curves. Bane was a lot more powerful after spending less than a month with Revan's holocron. Revan regained most of his powers within a few weeks training with the jedi (according to KOTOR). Six months is PLENTY of time to gain knowledge, especially if you have "cities of tomes, scrolls and holocrons." Furthermore, he disappeared for a year, and then waged war for another what, 2 years or so? It stands to reason that he took whatever sith objects he could to study them when he had the time.

And the Sith Emperor wouldn't have told Revan anything that would have enabled Revan to overcome him in the future.

Debatable. The Sith Emperor also believed Revan would spearhead an advanced invasion and find the star forge for HIM. Based on all the TOR videos, Revan definitely did something substantial even though he didn't defeat the Sith.

Again: The time factor. Bane just had some days to deal with whatever Revan left behind in the holocron. The assumption that one can learn "everything" from another being in the matter of days appears to be rather off.

Sure but 6 months to 2 years? Very possible. Also, Bane took Andeddu's knowledge which was said to have taken years to learn, and ripped it out of the holocron and into his mind within a matter of minutes. Soo....

Unlike most people here, I've read the TOTJ era comics, specifically "The Golden Age of the Sith" and "The Fall of the Sith Empire". Almost all people on the ruling council of Sith Lords are named and die at some point in the storyline. Since the Sith lived by the idea that the strongest shall rule, it stands to reason that the later Sith Emperor, who came from the Ancient Sith Empire and not being among the Council members, was just one of the lesser force users of the Empire under Ragnos and later Sadow / Kressh.

Emphasis mine.

And so? Does this somehow make him not a Sith? He could have been an accolyte or just a generic Sith. The destruction of the Sith Empire would be enough to make him their strongest and most highly ranked member, just like Luke was far less technically skilled and well taught than pre-Empire Jedi, yet he still crowned himself Grandmaster. He's still a legitimate Sith and as such can carry on the Sith legacy.

I really hate it when people start attributing stuff to characters in a Gideonesque fashion by ignoring information and drawing illogical conclusions. First: The Jedi almost drove the Sith to extinction, which leads to the assumption that much knowledge was simple destroyed, either by the destruction of recordings (Holocrons, scrolls, whatever) or by the death of the people who invented it. This is confirmed by "The Essential Guide to the Force" on several occassions.

And yet Atris found enough Sith holocrons to fill an entire room. The destruction was clearly not as extensive as you make it out to be. Also the Jedi didn't know anything about Malachor, and as we see in KOTOR, they were unable to breach many of the tombs on Korriban, as seen by the numerous Sith artifacts, the Star map and the undisturbed Sith Lords.

Hell, Bane found an entire book of Sith sorceries and 4 holocrons thousands of years after kotor.

The next thing is, that Korriban was a grave world. And we saw what Revan found in the previously sealed graves of the most powerful Sith: clearly not giant troves of knowledge but just some helpful gimmics and the information where the Star Forge is located.

We saw what was there after he had already been there. Theres nothing to suggest he didn't find and claim knowledge before his amnesiac return there.

And Malachor? He discovered the planet towards the end of the Mandalorian Wars. How should he have learned anything there in the time span of about six months?

As DS pointed out, Force-users and particularly Darksiders have extremely high learning rates. Bane already informed us of the multitudes of Sith rituals he learnt from the holocron as well as other techniques like poison resistence etc, so clearly Revan was very well informed. Plus again as DS says, sources support that Revan 'plundered... cities of tomes, scrolls and holocrons.'

And Malachor? He discovered the planet towards the end of the Mandalorian Wars. How should he have learned anything there in the time span of about six months?

That doesn't change the fact that he was a recognised and dubbed Sith Lord. He's legitimate and therefore the succession is legitimate.

Again: The time factor. Bane just had some days to deal with whatever Revan left behind in the holocron. The assumption that one can learn "everything" from another being in the matter of days appears to be rather off.

Bane's learning rate has already proven itself to be enormous.

When Bane finds Freedon Nadds holocron he explicitly notes that much of it matches up with what he had already found in Revan's holocron. Unless both Revan and Freedon Nadd ommitted the same material from their holocrons then it stands to reason that Revan and Nadd possessed the same level of Force knowledge.

Furthermore: The lack of knowledge transfer from the "old" to the "new" Sith is pretty clearly demonstrated by the decline of the arts that once coined the force use in the Sith Empire: Sith magic and Sith alchemy. As a matter of fact, Sith magic was just rarely practiced (e.g. by Zannah) much as Sith alchemy (where Sidious and probably Plagueis are the only known users). The likes of Vader, Dooku and Maul - much like the movies as a whole - are pretty ignorant towards the arts of the ancient Sith.

Only because Sidious limited their knowledge on purpose. And Bane also stats that some people are just naturally inclined towards different uses of the Force. Some can use Sorcery and some can use more elemental Force Lightning etc. Theres nothing suggesting the Sith no longer possessed such knowledge, particularly when Bane himself possessed the combined knowledge of Revan, Nadd, Belia Darzu and Andeddu. The later 3 of which are all alchemists and sorcerers. Also, Zannah's book of sorcery.

So the guy killed his buddy because he heared something that he shouldn't have heared? That's a great example for somebody not being evil.

Yes. Out of loyalty to the empire and feeling bad about it. Evil people don't feel bad afterwards.

The Sith society is based upon the reign of the strongest. As such, the higher echelons within the are usually not filled by nice guys or morally obliged people.

Exactly. The society doesn't give a damn about your morality, only that you are strong. You don't have to be a douchebag to get ahead.

Furthermore they are encouraged to utilize their (dark) feelings in order to use the force. So by our usual view of "good" and "evil", most of them would count as "evil", even if they think themselves that they are acting "good".

Being angry doesn't mean you're evil. Like, at all.

I don't really get what you're arguing about here. They're saying that the Sith in the movies aren't really Sith, the current Sith are. And yet there is a clear line of succession between the current sith and the movie Sith, so they're contradicting themselves. You're arguing that the current Sith Empire isn't really Sith either. But they outright say that they are. So, you're wrong. Am I missing something here?

E
Fassbender and McAvoy are now firmly my definitive incarnations of their respective characters (no small feat), and deservedly.

Better than Ian McKellen and Patrick Stewart? That's... unexpected.

The recent episode of South Park was really sad. Funny, but sad.

Definately the best episode of the season so far.

So I started Clone Wars today. How long till it gets good? Or does it ever?

Each season is subsequently better. Though none of them are "good".

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Each season is subsequently better. Though none of them are "good".

Are you one of those fans that, had this show been set during the OT, you would masturbate to it routinely?

I had to laugh when Grievous, in a fit of tactical GENIUS prioritised attacking a defenceless medical station over the people actually attacking him.

N.
I had to laugh when Grievous, in a fit of tactical [b]GENIUS prioritised attacking a defenceless medical station over the people actually attacking him. [/B]

As someone who regards a mildly alarming clown as more dangerous than a galaxy-wide tyrant, I daresay that you are not someone with a clear grasp on priorities. excellent

Spoiler:
It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but I believe that the station was the Republic's major medical site in the facility. This is actually something that's picked up on in season three: General Grievous takes actions to delay or obstruct the entrance of clone troops into the war. In a certain context, it's not a bad idea.

Did I ever say he was more dangerous? I doubt I did seeing as Palpatine is superhuman.

Spoiler:
He could destroy it after he'd dealt with the bombers literally up his ass bombing the shit out of him. Talk about a tactical blunder.
N.
Did I ever say he was more dangerous? I doubt I did seeing as Palpatine is superhuman.

It pleases me that you acknowledge the clown's inferiority.*

Spoiler:
* Which includes his smaller penis size.

Physical inferiority does not denote Villianous inferiority. The Joker is still a superior villian to Failatine.

N.
Physical inferiority does not denote Villianous inferiority. The Joker is still a superior villian to Failatine.

Yes, yes, because he's the patron saint of emo and goth kids everywhere. Trust me, I've seen this sort of behavior before and it shall fade in time.

But for now, you may cling to the cold comforts of your skinny jeans, your black Joker T-shirt, and the blood-stained razor with which you use to pour out your essence into a world that doesn't love you.

excellent

Meow?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Are you one of those fans that, had this show been set during the OT, you would masturbate to it routinely?
If the blocky animation and high-school level writing that defines The Clone Wars had been set amidst the beloved original trilogy, I'm one of those fans would swear an oath to avenge Star Wars and cleanse it with the blood of those who sullied it.

O RLY?

"The production will focus on minor characters from the Star Wars galaxy, rather than the main characters from the films."
Oh thank God.

"George Lucas will write and produce the first season."
Shit.

It's apparently going to be pretty dark according to Rick McCallum, focusing on drugs and prostitution.

Sounds emo enough for N. to get on board.