Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
And what if a disgustingly ugly old fat dude completely naked came walking into you're view? With grease from the last Zip burger he had just eaten?Get my point?
They should only allow hott people to walk around naked
LOLOL
Ne ways im totally kidding. They alraedy have nude beaches for that kind thing, and i love it !!!!!
So no harm done.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
12 is too low.But PVS is right; we cannot muzzle someone calling for a change in the law.
It is also worth noting that screaming out that they are encouraging child abuse and paedophilia is a very relative thing. I suspect people would say the same if their target age was 14, yet that already IS the age in a lot of countries, including Canada. 13 in Spain, I believe.
So you cannot pretend this is something the human race is universal on. It is cultural attitude. I also seem to remember the age was 12 in the Netherlands not so long ago, though the particulars of how that worked escape me. So in their culture it is not so foreign.
Age 12 IS TOO LOW.....
Most kids just STARTED developing thier sexual physical being at Age 12. They are in NO WAY ready to make sexual decisions, they are not even sexual BEINGS yet.
16....better. They're not sexual genuises, but can handle sex muchh better than a 12 year old, AND 16 year olds have a better ability to give full consent to an adult.
I cannot help thinking you didn't quite get the point of my post there. Seeing as I started by saying it is too low, yeah?
My point is that people seem to think that there is a consensus- certainly people tend to think that the Age of Consent in the environment they grow up in is some kind of moral absolute. Nothing could be fuirther from the truth. There is no consensus over what the age of consent should be, or even what factors it should be based upon.
It is, it is VERY odd, and the tabloids don't help by calling for the castration of someone who slept with a 15 year old whilst parading 16 year old breasts every so often, along with the occasional article on how hot Emma Watson is.
It is an area of total moral confusion- but twinned with very strong feeling. Very dangerous combination.
It happens the world over also, yet the biggest case is always overlooked.
Eg: Lindsay Lohan, Mary Kate/Ashley Olsen etc. All of these girls were "cute" until they became legal. The day they hit 18, Maxim and FHM were knocking on their door.
Attraction doesn't just happen, a girl doesn't magically become sexy overnight. If you find a girl to be attractive, say so. It doesn't mean you're going to attempt rape. Yet as you said, the tabloids force the belief that people have to shut up until they are legal. Then it's ok.
-AC
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I cannot help thinking you didn't quite get the point of my post there. Seeing as I started by saying it is too low, yeah?My point is that people seem to think that there is a consensus- certainly people tend to think that the Age of Consent in the environment they grow up in is some kind of moral absolute. Nothing could be fuirther from the truth. There is no consensus over what the age of consent should be, or even what factors it should be based upon.
DUDE...i was AGREEING with you. 😉
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Attraction doesn't just happen, a girl doesn't magically become sexy overnight. If you find a girl to be attractive, say so. It doesn't mean you're going to attempt rape. Yet as you said, the tabloids force the belief that people have to shut up until they are legal. Then it's ok.-AC
That's an excellent point.
I'm just waiting for someone to say this is what happens when a country heads down that slippery slope of allowing boys to get married.
Boys get married to each other...then men wanting to marry their 13 year old daughter...the men wanting to marry their goat....and eventually it'll be the man who married his goat that wants to legally adopt a child.
It's coming, wait for it.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Wasn't quite addressing the point that you don't really have an objective basis to tell other cultures that though.
True, my stance was totally one of personal bias.
But what scientific or hardcore facts could back up ANYBODY's opinion in this kind of situation?
I honestly beleive that 12 years old is just too young. I don't beleive a 12 year old can fully give consent to an adult on anything sexual, because 12 year olds don't even have a full grasp of what SEX is and what it's about, simply because they are JUST starting to become sexual beings.
A person who already has a few years experience thinking and feeling sexual has more leverage when it comes to giving consent to sexual activity.
I'm not saying that EVERY teenager grows the same rate. But age 16 is definately more likely for a teenager to have a stronger concept of sex, then one who is 12.
That's a bit flawed. I know people older than 16 who haven't got the faintest idea of how to safely and responsibly conduct themselves sexually.
The main reason younger kids have no clue about sexual issues is because every time they try to raise a question, it's like some controversial issue. I've witnessed it myself. My niece said something about two people talking about sex on this TV show, literally just mentioned it like I did, said barely anymore than the word "sex" (because I'm not even sure she's aware of what it means yet), and my mother quickly said in a half-jokingly half-serious tone "Don't you say that word!" I was thinking, "How the f*ck are they meant to grow up and be responsible, intelligent and knowledgeable on the subject if you do nothing but make them feel that it's a taboo or embarassing subject?"
As Bill Hicks said "When did sex become a bad thing? Did I miss a meeting?"
I'm NOT saying anything good about paedophilia here, I'm just saying that in 2006 maybe we collectively need to loosen up on the whole issue of sex being taboo, because at the end of it all, we're here because of it. Parents tell their kids they love them and that they're little miracles out of one side of their mouths, while often berating them for asking how it happened with the other.
Then people wonder why girls and guys are off being sexually curious at younger ages. It's because they're not taught. I didn't go off and become an alcoholic at 18 for the simple reason that my parents let me have alcohol at as young as 16, in moderation and sensibly ONLY around them. At which point I realised it was shit, pointless and therefore didn't have this whole "OH MY! I'm 18! I CAN GO DO THAT DRINKING THING!" Same applies to sex.
-AC
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
True, my stance was totally one of personal bias.But what scientific or hardcore facts could back up ANYBODY's opinion in this kind of situation?
Depends what you mean by 'this kind of situation'
Details vary, but pretty much everyone agrees in the general idea of the appropriateness of laws against murder, rape, arson etc.
And whilst many cultures still do not share it, it is generally- and I believe correctly- being accepted by most cultures that laws against homosexuals are wrong.
All in all, there is a kind of shared vague consensus, even if, as I say, the details vary. Even if there is no such thing as an absolute fact, the relative opinions that cultures that people generally accept as as good thing tend to coincide. And so it is on this basis that we might normally lecture another country on bad law.
But not here. Everyone agrees that sex with underage children is wrong, and the concept arouses strong feelings, but the problem is that no-one can hammer out a definition of what 'underage' is. Not even the voting age is this controversial and variable, and not even the voting age is this volatile.
So... what I am saying is, in a world where cultural values are increasingly being shared, this one is WAY out of whack, sometimes just by crossing a nearby border.
Which is creating this sizeable moral void. There is no clear direction, and the instinctive reaction of many people when exposed to the difference in other cultures is revulsion.
Mind you, I don't meet many Canadians that even known what their AOC is. American culture has pervaded them to think it is the same as in the US, which of course doesn'tt have a single AOC, even though that point is often lost on people.
Talking of which, checked out Iowa's laws? Sex legal at 12 within marriage, legal at 14- alebit fuzzily- outside of it. You really don't have to go far before you get this sudden moral shift.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's a bit flawed. I know people older than 16 who haven't got the faintest idea of how to safely and responsibly conduct themselves sexually.The main reason younger kids have no clue about sexual issues is because every time they try to raise a question, it's like some controversial issue. I've witnessed it myself. My niece said something about two people talking about sex on this TV show, literally just mentioned it like I did, said barely anymore than the word "sex" (because I'm not even sure she's aware of what it means yet), and my mother quickly said in a half-jokingly half-serious tone "Don't you say that word!" I was thinking, "How the f*ck are they meant to grow up and be responsible, intelligent and knowledgeable on the subject if you do nothing but make them feel that it's a taboo or embarassing subject?"
As Bill Hicks said "When did sex become a bad thing? Did I miss a meeting?"
I'm NOT saying anything good about paedophilia here, I'm just saying that in 2006 maybe we collectively need to loosen up on the whole issue of sex being taboo, because at the end of it all, we're here because of it. Parents tell their kids they love them and that they're little miracles out of one side of their mouths, while often berating them for asking how it happened with the other.
Then people wonder why girls and guys are off being sexually curious at younger ages. It's because they're not taught. I didn't go off and become an alcoholic at 18 for the simple reason that my parents let me have alcohol at as young as 16, in moderation and sensibly ONLY around them. At which point I realised it was shit, pointless and therefore didn't have this whole "OH MY! I'm 18! I CAN GO DO THAT DRINKING THING!" Same applies to sex.
-AC
I agree, my parents allowed me to drink when I was 14, 15 but in moderation. For example I would ask if I can have 1 beer and sometimes they would say yes but most of the time they would say no.
How would kids know about the risks of sex if they didnt speak to them about it.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Talking of which, checked out Iowa's laws? Sex legal at 12 within marriage, legal at 14- alebit fuzzily- outside of it. You really don't have to go far before you get this sudden moral shift.
Yes, but you can be married from a state where the marriage age is lower. I think Kansas?
As Iowa law says that if you are married you can have sex regardless of Age, BUT it also has a general five year apart clause for anyone under 18 being the legal limit- more precisely, LESS than 5 years...
Then we find that a 16 year old married person in Kansas could legally have sex with his partner if she was 12.
Admittedly that is only because their law is cocked up. Their target AOC is still 14.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yes, but you can be married from a state where the marriage age is lower. I think Kansas?As Iowa law says that if you are married you can have sex regardless of Age, BUT it also has a general five year apart clause for anyone under 18 being the legal limit- more precisely, LESS than 5 years...
Then we find that a 16 year old married person in Kansas could legally have sex with his partner if she was 12.
Admittedly that is only because their law is cocked up. Their target AOC is still 14.
Some how, you know a lot about American laws...
This subject comes around normally once or twice each year. I keep accumulating little facts each time.
It always seems to be a shock to people when they realise the AOC is not universal, and all the more so if pointed out that a difference is not on the far side of the world, but relatively speaking just down the road.