The Exile, Darth Revan , Darth Malak vs ROTS Anakin, NJO luke, Yoda

And as concerns feat wars, your example is flawed in that your claiming one character is more powerful than the other based on a feat another character hasn't performed. It doesn't work that way, we determine the characters power by their most impressive feat, not who has done what specific feat.

And it goes further than that we consider who the feat was directed at, e.g. defeating non-force sensitives will be less impressive than defeating force sensitives in most instances.

We also don't make assumptions of a characters force abilities based on which family he belongs to or what his supposed force potential is. For example, Nomi Sunrider had plenty of force potential, but are we to assume she's more powerful than Kreia or anyone who wasn't categorically stated as being a force prodigy? So feats matter, otherwise NJO Luke wouldn't be considered the uber grand master of star wars.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And your point is? Revan regained all his previous memories his old personality returned and the powers along with it. The point of the Revan character is one who is not limited by what affiliation he is currently set at, and not adhering to any single dogma or any single "side" of the force. The point of Revan as it was stressed heavily in KOTOR 2 was that he was an individual. So is current affiliation has no drawbacks on his power in the force or to pull of techniques.

I appreciate that he didn't stick to one particular dogma, but that doesn't mean he used the dark side. Revan doesn't stick to any one ideal, but what do ideals have to with following the dark side? Ideals have little to do with the dark side and Revan quite clearly turned away from the dark side to follow the light, not the Jedi ideals specifically.

Originally posted by Allankles
And as concerns feat wars, your example is flawed in that your claiming one character is more powerful than the other based on a feat another character hasn't performed. It doesn't work that way, we determine the characters power by their most impressive feat, not who has done what specific feat.

And it goes further than that we consider who the feat was directed at, e.g. defeating non-force sensitives will be less impressive than defeating force sensitives in most instances.

We also don't make assumptions of a characters force abilities based on which family he belongs to or what his supposed force potential is. For example, Nomi Sunrider had plenty of force potential, but are we to assume she's more powerful than Kreia or anyone who wasn't categorically stated as being a force prodigy? So feats matter, otherwise NJO Luke wouldn't be considered the uber grand master of star wars. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, there's no flaw, because certain techniques show the force mastery of the person who is able to perform them. Your whole argument is based on the idea that "Oh well we haven't seen him perform the feat so either he can't or it's irrelevant!!!". Unfortunately that is not the case.

And this has to do with what? Correct me if I'm wrong but the thought bomb affects force users while the force storm affects everybody in its path.

You don't know a damn thing about Nomi's force potential, so your point is moot. And we CAN make certain assumptions like the descendants of the Skywalker bloodline are MORE THAN LIKELY going to be powerful force users.

Nope, I just addressed that with my reply to Styles. I said that he was claiming the exact same thing in his argument against what he thought was my opinion on feats. I said that we can't dismiss a characters power simply because he hasn't done the same exact feat. So you got it wrong, read my post again.

I was giving a general example, not commenting on the effects of specific techniques.

I know that we can't assume she's more powerful than Kreia based on her stated force potential, so my point is hardly moot. You can't make those assumptions without some kind of evidence.

There's no rule that states every Skywalker will be a force god, it's possible that some members of that family may not be force sensitive or they may be weak in the force (not that we have any examples).

Besides, potential doesn't equate to power until that potential is realized as is the case with Luke.

I'm not saying "well Revan isn't the best", I'm saying that nothing Revan has done has distinguished him as the best.

I'll say this again, because you seem to have selective vision, no one in the KOTOR era(aside from Nihlius) has done anything on the level Revan has, He was able to toy with the minds of an entire species, create force storms, overpower planets steeped in the Dark Side, had the best Battle Precognition known to the galaxy. Name ONE person in KOTOR who has even come close to this.

You have no evidence to support your argument and you sound like an idiot since you keep saying the same things over and over. I'll ask you AGAIN why are Revans feats unimpressive compared to the other greats of the KOTOR era who you can't seem to name?

And what does near invincibility mean anyway? You're either invincible or you're not. Why bother mentioning that he's nearly invincible? Do we have a measure of what it is to be nearly invincible? C'mon it's quite clearly hyperbole, credit to Malak for putting up a fight but outside of the hyperbole it doesn't tell us how strong Malak was in comparison to Revan and vice versa.

The exact quote:

The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. Malak was nearly unstoppable. - Star Wars Databank

I'll admit I got it wrong when it said invincible, but unstoppable is pretty much the same thing.

Since you asked for gameplay evidence of Malaks power, we can turn to the Wizards of Coasts article about him.

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level.

And if were going by the D20 system Malaks in game powers and feats are off the charts:

Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 17, Cha 20.

Force Skills: Affect Mind +9, Control Mind +14, Battlemind +17, Enhance Ability +15, Fear +20, Force Defense +15, Force Grip +18, Force Lightning +24, Force Strike +11, Move Object +15, Telepathy +13.

Force Feats: Alter, Burst of Speed, Control, Drain Force*, Force Mind, Force Whirlwind, Hatred*, Knight Defense, Lightsaber Defense, Malevolent, Master Defense, Mettle, Rage*, Sense, Sith Sorcery*, Sith Sword Defense*.

Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 5 -- Darth Malak ignores the first five points of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031009malak

Really Malak was no joke. Oh yeah BTW Revan beat that...twice.

And as concerns feat wars, your example is flawed in that your claiming one character is more powerful than the other based on a feat another character hasn't performed. It doesn't work that way, we determine the characters power by their most impressive feat, not who has done what specific feat.

Again selective vision, what are you talking about? Jacen and Revan performed pretty much the exact same feat, probing the mind for information.

I'll break it down for you.

Jacen attempted to do it to Boba Fetts daughter Ailyn Vel, accept with his lack of control and force mastery he accidentally caused and aneurysm and killed her.

Revan ripped a complex language system out of one of their heads, without killing them, then he shoved Galactic Basic inside their heads so they could understand him, also some of these Rataka were force sensitive. Now that level of force mastery is amazing.

Jacen the number 2 of the New Jedi Order couldn't touch Revans feat, so that alone means Revan is more powerful in the force then the entire NJO save for Luke.

What don't you get about this?

I appreciate that he didn't stick to one particular dogma, but that doesn't mean he used the dark side. Revan doesn't stick to any one ideal, but what do ideals have to with following the dark side? Ideals have little to do with the dark side and Revan quite clearly turned away from the dark side to follow the light, not the Jedi ideals specifically.

Again as I said it extends past dogma, to even affiliations to the force, hence why Revan had access to both Dark and Light powers, much like Jacen Solo.

Ac, one thing i want to point out. Stats are non-canon, if so why is vaders stats higher than that of jedi master luke, does that mean vader is stronger than luke canonically? No

Yea, stats are non canon. You have Exar Kun with the highest stats out of anybody. Come on.

I only used then cause he asked for gameplay evidence namely the D20 system, I provided, you've never seen me use RPG stats before, but I only did cause as said he asked for it.

You guys are retarded.
Luke pwns Revan?
Luke pwns Revan and Malak?
HAVE you ever played KOTOR?
It's things like this that piss me off.

Have you ever read the NJO or the Dark Nest saga? I thought not.

I have red ALOT of EU, and beileve me, I read NJO and the Dark Nest saga.

But frankly, I still don't think NJO Luke has a chance against Revan.

Originally posted by Spidervlad
I have red ALOT of EU, and beileve me, I read NJO and the Dark Nest saga.

But frankly, I still don't think NJO Luke has a chance against Revan.

Most Revan fans (me being one of them) will tell you that he is not better than Luke, you know why because its true! 😄

Originally posted by Kadesh
Just to let you know, you are a fanboy of revan, GL himself stated if anakin were to achieve his full potential, he would become more powerful than any force user, and GL stated that luke is as powerful as FPA.

No he didn't. FPL /= FPA, that's bullshit, and has in no way been proven, and just doesn't make sense. Anakin was basically conceived by the midi-chlorians, and would therefor have a higher force connection than anyone. It's never been proven that force potential is purely genetic, either, and judging by the type of stuff Anakin could do without any training in comparison to Luke, it's pretty obvious that Anakin's connection was firmly higher.

People are doing with that quote, the exact same thing as they do with the Sidious = Anakin quote. I don't think it means FPLuke = FPAnakin.

However, doing impressive things without being taught does not at all show who's connection is higher. Wasn't there a 10 year old kid, who killed 2 jedi masters with the force with no traning? Still not above Anakin's midichlorian count.....

It doesn't make it conclusive, but calling upon the force without any training has everything to do with your force connection. A force connection dictates how apparent the force feels to you, and how big its presence is in relation to yourself, and calling upon it without being taught to speaks volumes for how strong your relationship with the force is.

I am a Revan fanboy, but I do not base my opinions on that. I base my opinions on what he achieved. He achieved something that Luke has never achieved and will never achieve. SPOILER WARNING
SPOILER WARNING
SPOILER WARNING
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1) Revan turned the tide of the Mandolorian War into a landslide. This is something Anakin, Obi Wan, and the rest of the jedi couldn't do in the Clone Wars. And remember, the Jedi Council did not want to help in the Mandolorian Wars, and they never did. So 2 Jedi Knights, who didn't yet achieve the rank of Jedi Master turned a tide of a battle.
Okey, you could argue and say that Luke did the same by killing Vader. However, read on.

2) Revan passed all the tests of the star map's and discovered them. This is no easy task. Then, Revan went to an uknown world with the Ratakan civilisation. Listen carefully, now. Revan took out their language, put them right into his head, and then took out his basic language and put it into their heads. Luke will never attempt this. And also, he did not kill any Ratakan while doing so. No jedi master can do this.

3) Revan's charisma made almost half of the republic join his side. And, if you played the game right, you could either make Bastilla come back to the light side, or join your quest to defeat Malak to become more powerful. I'm sure Revan can pull some tricks off with Anakin or Luke while dueling them.

4)Revan survived when half of his ship blew up by one of Malak's cruisers attacks.
5) Revan had to practically begin learning his powers from scratch once his memory has been wiped out. In a few months, Revan destroyed the Leviathon, killed a Malak who was renewing himself on jedi corpse.

Luke pwns Revan? I don't think so.

Originally posted by allfg
It doesn't make it conclusive, but calling upon the force without any training has everything to do with your force connection. A force connection dictates how apparent the force feels to you, and how big its presence is in relation to yourself, and calling upon it without being taught to speaks volumes for how strong your relationship with the force is.

Still, it doesn't show you are stronger, just because you do something with it that someone else didn't. Anakin didn't really do anything THAT spectacular, but he is the strongest force user ever. (Potentially)

Originally posted by Spidervlad
I am a Revan fanboy, but I do not base my opinions on that. I base my opinions on what he achieved. He achieved something that Luke has never achieved and will never achieve. SPOILER WARNING
SPOILER WARNING
SPOILER WARNING
SPOILER WARNING

1) Revan turned the tide of the Mandolorian War into a landslide. This is something Anakin, Obi Wan, and the rest of the jedi couldn't do in the Clone Wars. And remember, the Jedi Council did not want to help in the Mandolorian Wars, and they never did. So 2 Jedi Knights, who didn't yet achieve the rank of Jedi Master turned a tide of a battle.
Okey, you could argue and say that Luke did the same by killing Vader. However, read on.

2) Revan passed all the tests of the star map's and discovered them. This is no easy task. Then, Revan went to an uknown world with the Ratakan civilisation. Listen carefully, now. Revan took out their language, put them right into his head, and then took out his basic language and put it into their heads. Luke will never attempt this. And also, he did not kill any Ratakan while doing so. No jedi master can do this.

3) Revan's charisma made almost half of the republic join his side. And, if you played the game right, you could either make Bastilla come back to the light side, or join your quest to defeat Malak to become more powerful. I'm sure Revan can pull some tricks off with Anakin or Luke while dueling them.

4)Revan survived when half of his ship blew up by one of Malak's cruisers attacks.
5) Revan had to practically begin learning his powers from scratch once his memory has been wiped out. In a few months, Revan destroyed the Leviathon, killed a Malak who was renewing himself on jedi corpse.

Luke pwns Revan? I don't think so.

Those are all feats, people could drag up hundreds which Luke did that Revan couldn't do.....
Believe me, all this has been said before, and it has never defeated Luke.

Tell me something about Luke that Revan didn't do other then your boasting of how "He can use the force without being trained" bullcrap?