You have to compare facts nothing more nothing less. The problem with goku fans is that they try to use the ill-math of the powerlevel to "increase" all Abilities of Goku (Strength, Speed, Endiurance, Inteligence 😉 etc.) while the show and the Mangas show and prove that those powerlevel show mostly how much and powerful the ki energy is. The Other abilities increase just a bit. That is the reason why Gokus truggles with a building, why he can't livt a city, just support a small part of it, why an Golden Uzaru (whose power level is lower) is much stronger then an SSJ4. Superman has feats of Strength, Speed, Stamina, Invulnerability, Heat Vision and Energyresistance (even Magic) that put him beyond everything qn DB char has ever done.
Did an DB char ever destroyed an planet? With one instant blast? Yes. Goku too? Can he do it, why not. Did Superman survived blasts capable to destroy an planet, or even one capable of destroying an Galaxy or Solar System? YES.
Nothing they throw at him will be effective enough and that's the reason why Supermanfans work with scans and facts, while some DB fans, who can't accept the truth, ignore the feats of their show and work only with their "logic".
Don't get me wrong I like logic but this kind of logic is what would come "pulled out of the ass" closet..ahem closest.
Goku can't be as strong as his powerlevelmultiplier, his feats of Strength show us something else, if he would have no strength feats at all I wouldn't argue but when the writers let him struggle with buildings and cityparts, not even lifting them, you can be sure that they wanted to show how strong he is. Which by itself is awesome, Class 80 I would guess.
The problem with Goku is his training, his martial arts don't improve much more, just his energyattacks. The Ki is the most important technique of DB, they rely too much on blasts and energy then on pure fighting skills. Superman is maybe even his equal when it comes down to h2h, he was trained by Mongul, he knows pressure points, was also trained by Batman and WW IIRC.
Gokus punches and hits would be strong enough, Superman would feel them, but if the DB chars wouldn't break their hands, and keep on punching it would take eternity to take him down. Speed is no factor here, as the DB chars are outclassed. So that leaves only their Martial Arts and their Energyattcks, and even though they might be good or powerful, Superman has faced worse and survived unharmed.
This is not a fair fight.
Goku vs KarateKid, this would be funny, but Goku would go down.
Goku vs Artemis, without Ki, would go down hard, she is an real h2h fighter.
Goku vs Lady Shiva or Batman, without Superstrength and Ki, would be dead.
Goku vs Thor, would be more interesting but still Thor takes this, he can absorb each Energyattack with his hammer, is Stronger then Goku, not as fast, but has more fighting skills and expierience.
DBGT Chars vs WW, would be almost as pointless as DBGT chars vs Superman.
Those DBZ and GT chars play in another class, why try to beat the most powerful superheroe, try it with people of the same class, like.
Namor, IronMan, The Thing, Wolverine, Quasar, Captain Marvel (Marvel Photon), Colossus, Rookie GLs, Firestar (DC), Lobo, Wildfire, Major Force, Steel, Troia,
Thus would be more fitting enemies, i guess, because Goku would have the "edge" in some abilities, while the other would have the edge in another.
first of all supes and all the other characters you have mentioned have been ko'd by a lot less effort then a planet destroying blast. The problem with superman fanboy's is that they believe that the only true superman showings are from Jeph Lobe their god. I can't believe this thread has 95 stupid pages to it. WOW ....... and higher ki levels do indicate higher strength levels, (at least in the show) right before the majin buu saga goku was working out with weights and these weights were then multiplied and goku wasn't able to move but then went super sayian and he coudl barly feel the weights. For 95 pages both sides have loved skewing the facts about both sets of characters. Why? it's the reason (maybe) the vs. forum doesn't allow animi characters in it that, because it comes from a different culture. That culture doesn't value lifting strength as much as hiting power. Goku is no ware near as strong as superman but he can punch just as hard (as a non jeph lobe) superman. as far as i'm concerned they are equals but in different contexts.
right before the majin buu saga goku was working out with weights and these weights were then multiplied and goku wasn't able to move but then went super sayian and he coudl barly feel the weights.
Originally the weights were 4 tons then they became 40. Superman can lift in vast excess of that.
first of all supes and all the other characters you have mentioned have been ko'd by a lot less effort then a planet destroying blast. The problem with superman fanboy's is that they believe that the only true superman showings are from Jeph Lobe their god
We've used very few Jeph Loeb feats in this argument. When has Superman being knocked out by something less than planet destroying in the last decade.
Besides a Loeb Superman isn't much more powerful than one written by say Morrison or Busiek.
Goku is no ware near as strong as superman but he can punch just as hard (as a non jeph lobe) superman.
forum doesn't allow animi characters in it that, because it comes from a different culture. That culture doesn't value lifting strength as much as hiting power
If Goku has the strength to hit incredibly hard why can't he use it to lift stuff? Other Anime's have characters that can lift large amounts. G gundam for instance. Characters were shown to be able to launch sky scrapers into the sky. Other characters in that Anime have good lifting feats.
Any punching feats of Goku? Cell focuses all his Ki into strength and left a small hole in the ground. Superman punched a moon in two and has indicated that he can do so under other writers.
Your using the Anime excuse to avoid having to use proof.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Originally the weights were 4 tons then they became 40. Superman can lift in vast excess of that.We've used very few Jeph Loeb feats in this argument. When has Superman being knocked out by something less than planet destroying in the last decade.
Besides a Loeb Superman isn't much more powerful than one written by say Morrison or Busiek.
If Goku has the strength to hit incredibly hard why can't he use it to lift stuff? Other Anime's have characters that can lift large amounts. G gundam for instance. Characters were shown to be able to launch sky scrapers into the sky. Other characters in that Anime have good lifting feats.
Any punching feats of Goku? Cell focuses all his Ki into strength and left a small hole in the ground. Superman punched a moon in two and has indicated that he can do so under other writers.
Your using the Anime excuse to avoid having to use proof.
I'm saying it's a different culture and that even though goku isn't as strong as superman that he can hit as hard. the proff is in who he hits. People like buu and brolly and others that are unaffected by planet destroying blast but then get there faces punched in by goku. Take the namik saga for starters when goku was fighting Gynu, Gynu grabed his arms and goku couldn't break free until Gynu let him go. It's different and their are a lot of inconsistencies.
So is a punch from mettalo, mongul, zod all planet destroying. When Mettalo hit superman it left four marks on his face that didn't come off until several pages later.
Just because you can find a few inconsistencies in DBZ doesn't make them the norm. They don't even try to be consistent hence DBGT. Like I said before it's a different culture and it's a different genre from gundam.
also as far as feats go they are more impressive feats when they do the same stuff to more powerfull characters. the fact that goku could touch buu or cell at all is more of a feat then goku beating frezza. Going by just by what is seen you guys could make a great case for frezza taking out SSJ4 goku. I can't remember who told me this but it was that you can't always go with what the artist is doing but by what is being said (or written in the caption) so when it says that final level friza is 100 more times powerful then first level frizza (who instantly destroyed a planet) then that's what it is. Even though final level frieza destroyed a planet by attacking it's core.
I'm saying it's a different culture and that even though goku isn't as strong as superman that he can hit as hard. the proff is in who he hits. People like buu and brolly and others that are unaffected by planet destroying blast but then get there faces punched in by goku
Brolly hasn't been hit by a planet destroying blast directly. Buu's own planet destroying blast reduced him to a pink mist he had to regenerate from. Cell was twice heavily injured by planet destroying blasts.
So is a punch from mettalo, mongul, zod all planet destroying. When Mettalo hit superman it left four marks on his face that didn't come off until several pages later.
No but they have the comparitive energy (except metalo), its near impossible to destroy a planet with a single fist sized impact. Metalo hurts Superman becuase he has Krytonite.
Just because you can find a few inconsistencies in DBZ doesn't make them the norm. They don't even try to be consistent hence DBGT. Like I said before it's a different culture and it's a different genre from gundam.
They weren't inconsitancies there's never being any sign of DBZ characters doing damge to large areas through they're punches. Rock faces and small hills arn't large areas.
Ahh. You've never seem G gundam then. Anyone who says it isn't like DBZ can't of seen it.
1st, in an vs encounter you have to take the char at his best, his greatest feats. It doesn't matter who the artist was, as long as you can proove what your heroe is capable of.
2nd, I said that Gokus strength, speed and some other abilities increase, but not as much as his KI. It's a fact if you compare the powerlevel with the ki feats and the physical feats.
3rd, Just because you can hurt someone, who "survives" an planetdestroying Ki-attack, with a punch doesn't mean you can destroy a planet with a punch too. The DBZ fighters have their Ki to protect them from the Ki attacks of others, they can deflect or even stop them by focusing their Ki energy to various body parts, they can deflect such blast even with their aura if they are more powerful then their enemies.
However, this doesn't say that they are physically tougher, a punch is a punch and their Ki aura does not stop it, they have their natural toughness to withstands physical hits, this is the reason why they are hurt by physical attacks more then by energybased.
GL are an good example, they have a lot of energy, but they are physicaly weak, a direkt punch does more dmg (though their energy could protect them from such thing) then an energy blast. They survive planetbursting energyattacks can hold an big-bang with their energy but they are hurt by an ordinary human who surprises them and is lucky enough to hit them with a rock. This does not mean that th DBZ fighters are weak, mind you, they are tough a SSJ4 is about Class 80 when it comes down to pure Strength, which is quite impressive, but he is physically not as strong as some heavyhitters, like the Hulk, Superman, Thor or the Martian Manhunter.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Brolly hasn't been hit by a planet destroying blast directly. Buu's own planet destroying blast reduced him to a pink mist he had to regenerate from. Cell was twice heavily injured by planet destroying blasts.No but they have the comparitive energy (except metalo), its near impossible to destroy a planet with a single fist sized impact. Metalo hurts Superman becuase he has Krytonite.
They weren't inconsitancies there's never being any sign of DBZ characters doing damge to large areas through they're punches. Rock faces and small hills arn't large areas.
Ahh. You've never seem G gundam then. Anyone who says it isn't like DBZ can't of seen it.
Yeah, G Gundam is the stuff, I have the whole series!
Oh, and Supes wins. No matter how many fanboys come into the thread trying to dismiss Supes feats and over exaggerate the DBZ/GT characters powers.
Originally posted by dvampire
Yeah, G Gundam is the stuff, I have the whole series!Oh, and Supes wins. No matter how many fanboys come into the thread trying to dismiss Supes feats and over exaggerate the DBZ/GT characters powers.
but wouldn't you say it's a different genera then DBZ? We are talking about the giant robot saga right. Anyway That show is a lot better then DBZ. I'm not trying to take away feat just saying that some are PIS. And Multiple dbz normal fan (I do understand that there are fanboys) have made some great points on this fourm and all the superman fanboys do is just say na uh. Anyway if the die hard dbz fans can't convince you of how powerful and fast dbz characters are there is no way I can.
It's too bad that superman fanboys are more persistent and numerous. by the way I really don't like dbz and really like superman. Still that doesn't mean I need to swallow what ever crap feat some fanboy writer just made up because he loves superman like a husband loves a wife. Hence T-Vo
As far as I could tell when I watched DBZ was that they were hugely powerful however didn't seem anymore powerful one saga to the next but they just were and that's how it goes. I didn't like it so I stoped watching.
This is ridiculous. It's basically fanboys vs fanboys. The thing is that the DC Comics will keep making Superman stronger and stronger and the creators of DBZ made Goku capable of immortality and unlimited potential. It seems pointless to even bring these two into combat because whatever feat someone will use to back up Superman, someone else will either equal it with Goku or deny it for some loophole reason.
This theard should be closed down because no clear winner can ever be decided. In one comic Superman barely survived a nuke. In another he flew through the sun like he was taking a bath. In one episode Goku couldn't life 40 tons (40 tons on his arms and legs making it 160 tons) until he became a standard Super Saiyan and when DBGT ended he was capable of becoming a Super Saiyan 4.
Deciding a winner is impossible.
Originally posted by jasofisc
but wouldn't you say it's a different genera then DBZ? We are talking about the giant robot saga right. Anyway That show is a lot better then DBZ. I'm not trying to take away feat just saying that some are PIS. And Multiple dbz normal fan (I do understand that there are fanboys) have made some great points on this fourm and all the superman fanboys do is just say na uh. Anyway if the die hard dbz fans can't convince you of how powerful and fast dbz characters are there is no way I can.It's too bad that superman fanboys are more persistent and numerous. by the way I really don't like dbz and really like superman. Still that doesn't mean I need to swallow what ever crap feat some fanboy writer just made up because he loves superman like a husband loves a wife. Hence T-Vo
As far as I could tell when I watched DBZ was that they were hugely powerful however didn't seem anymore powerful one saga to the next but they just were and that's how it goes. I didn't like it so I stoped watching.
In any vs. topic we take away PIS and CIS and show the feats and showing of how the characters are normally shown. Now going by that, Supes easily wins. And T-Vo is a Superman ability now, no matter how much you HATE it.
Here's his respect thread!
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...-respect-thread
Study hard my friend!
Goku has nothing in his arsernal that could stop Supes.
This both characters fighting in character but not afriad to kill (a death match) then I definatly give this to Superman. Here is my reason.
Goku at heart is a martial artist through and through. Knowing his personality and fighting preferences he will almost certainly start off the fight with an exchange of fists. Goku does not start off chargeing up planet destroying Kamehameha blasts left and right (he won't be able to do that many times as well), but instead like a real martial artist would. Even if he does start off with a planet destroying Kamehameha wave, Supes isn't the type that will just stand there and wait for Goku to throw that slow attack; it won't fase Supes anyways, this guy shruggs off planet destroying blasts like nothing (look at some recent issues).
Superman is more of a brawler type (yes he knows Martial Arts well, but he rarely has to use them). He will also start off with an exchange of fists, probably going in with a strong knock out punch. If his opponent is skilled enough though he will bust out some skilled martial arts if he really needs to though.
Ok, so its a pretty safe bet that given their personallities, 95% of the time they will start this fight useing purely physical fighting. Given that this is a serious death match, both characters should start out serious and not be holding much back. Superman, even with his mental block can easily throw around punches with the force of millions of tons. Goku has never shown even a fraction of the durability needed to take even a graze of one of these punches. If Goku tried to block one punch the bones in his arm would most likely shatter and he would be sent flying. Physical strength has never really been the strong point of DBZ fighters.
Also, it should be noted that it takes time for Goku to properly power up into his higher states. In a fight with Superman I highly doubt he would be given time to reach any level higher then SSJ2 if even that. Superman on the other hand is always at max power, all he has to do is use it when he wants to. Even if Goku does power up to his highest (ssj3), he's still not close to Superman physically and will be losing power fast as the match go on (even faster if he constantly uses KI blasts). And don't forget Supes have energy blasts also, which will kill Goku or any other DBZ character in an instant. Goku can't block or deflect a blasts that's hotter than stars or freeze Supes level beings.
So ya, over all I think Superman would win in a with Goku. Its really 1 punch and its over, Goku may be able to avoid getting hit for awhile with his expert martial arts skill against a Superman holding back, but once Supes stops and get serious, it's over for any of the DBZ characters.
The Superman support have brung plenty of evidence why he should win, it's not even a fight once the DBZ/GT fanboys stop being so stubborn and except it.
Again Supes wins because he's way faster, stronger, more durable, has far more stamina, smarter, and can survive in space.
Originally posted by ESB -1138
This is ridiculous. It's basically fanboys vs fanboys. The thing is that the DC Comics will keep making Superman stronger and stronger and the creators of DBZ made Goku capable of immortality and unlimited potential. It seems pointless to even bring these two into combat because whatever feat someone will use to back up Superman, someone else will either equal it with Goku or deny it for some loophole reason.This theard should be closed down because no clear winner can ever be decided. In one comic Superman barely survived a nuke. In another he flew through the sun like he was taking a bath. In one episode Goku couldn't life 40 tons (40 tons on his arms and legs making it 160 tons) until he became a standard Super Saiyan and when DBGT ended he was capable of becoming a Super Saiyan 4.
Deciding a winner is impossible.
I could not agree more
Originally posted by ESB -1138
This is ridiculous. It's basically fanboys vs fanboys. The thing is that the DC Comics will keep making Superman stronger and stronger and the creators of DBZ made Goku capable of immortality and unlimited potential. It seems pointless to even bring these two into combat because whatever feat someone will use to back up Superman, someone else will either equal it with Goku or deny it for some loophole reason.This theard should be closed down because no clear winner can ever be decided. In one comic Superman barely survived a nuke. In another he flew through the sun like he was taking a bath. In one episode Goku couldn't life 40 tons (40 tons on his arms and legs making it 160 tons) until he became a standard Super Saiyan and when DBGT ended he was capable of becoming a Super Saiyan 4.
Deciding a winner is impossible.
Supes survived a blackhole. What feat has Goku survived that come close to that? None right?
Supes has been written consistantly and has only been getting stronger and stronger. He's completely nuke proof, and has been for quite a while. If Supes was hurt by a nuke, the it must have happen about several years ago what ever book you're reading.
And Goku only lifted 40 tons in all (10 tons on each of his limbs), not a 160 tons. 🙄
There's no fanboy vs. fanboy. It's logic vs. fanboyism. If you know about both characters, which would mean current Supes vs. Goku at his higest, it would easily put Supes as the winner.
This theard should be closed down because no clear winner can ever be decided. In one comic Superman barely survived a nuke. In another he flew through the sun like he was taking a bath. In one episode Goku couldn't life 40 tons (40 tons on his arms and legs making it 160 tons) until he became a standard Super Saiyan and when DBGT ended he was capable of becoming a Super Saiyan 4.
I love when the DBZ crew bring up these inconsistancies with Superman as if they happened in a random order. Superman has being steadily gaining power since the 80's. Of course he will have lower showings the further back you go.
They also use the 40 ton thing as a low point when there's no high end feats that contradict it. Personally I put Goku at his max as able to lift thousands of tons. Impressive but not Superman level.