Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
ni·hil·ism (n-lzm, n-)
n.
1. Philosophy
a. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence.
b. A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated.
2. Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief.
3. The belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement.
4. also Nihilism A diffuse, revolutionary movement of mid 19th-century Russia that scorned authority and tradition and believed in reason, materialism, and radical change in society and government through terrorism and assassination.
5. Psychiatry A delusion, experienced in some mental disorders, that the world or one's mind, body, or self does not exist.
Good for you, you can use a dictionary. And it shows exactly what I was referring to. Read the definition - a Nihilist is a very particular mind set - look at 1 a. & b. - simply not believing in a God does not automatically put on in that category. Likewise 2 (since 3, 4 and 5 are not relevant to the question.) Why? Simply because many people who do not believe in a religion still have morals, still think the world is real, still think it has value.
I agree with what Storm said, and Alliance. Note that simple lack of faith, or the absence of religious belief, is Atheism - not Nihilism. Lack of any belief at all is nigh impossible as there is always a cause, a person, a concept, an ideal that people can believe in. Even if that is not the case it does not put a person in the Nihilist category unless they meet the philosophical mindset that defines it. A Nihilist is someone who embodies the Nihilist philosophy, a person who doesn't believe is just that - a person who doesn't believe. You can't call them Nihilists for that alone - there are criteria for what is a Nihilist.
dude, i got it from a dictionary. are you saying that the dictionary is wrong?
No, merely that you assumption is wrong. In philosophy the smallest differences of view can create whole new groups and sub groups. It is the reason why people, if they wish, can differentiate between Communism, Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism. Not everyone is the same, and it is not workable to just group everyone together sometimes. Saying "You don't believe in God? Then you're a Nihilist." is not right as the criteria for classification as a Nihilist does not necessarily apply to an Atheist, or a person with no particular belief what so ever.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Good for you, you can use a dictionary. And it shows exactly what I was referring to. Read the definition - a Nihilist is a very particular mind set - look at 1 a. & b. - simply not believing in a God does not automatically put on in that category. Likewise 2 (since 3, 4 and 5 are not relevant to the question.) Why? Simply because many people who do not believe in a religion still have morals, still think the world is real, still think it has value.I agree with what Storm said, and Alliance. Note that simple lack of faith, or the absence of religious belief, is Atheism - not Nihilism. Lack of any belief at all is nigh impossible as there is always a cause, a person, a concept, an ideal that people can believe in. Even if that is not the case it does not put a person in the Nihilist category unless they meet the philosophical mindset that defines it. A Nihilist is someone who embodies the Nihilist philosophy, a person who doesn't believe is just that - a person who doesn't believe. You can't call them Nihilists for that alone - there are criteria for what is a Nihilist.
No, merely that you assumption is wrong. In philosophy the smallest differences of view can create whole new groups and sub groups. It is the reason why people, if they wish, can differentiate between Communism, Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism. Not everyone is the same, and it is not workable to just group everyone together sometimes. Saying "You don't believe in God? Then you're a Nihilist." is not right as the criteria for classification as a Nihilist does not necessarily apply to an Atheist, or a person with no particular belief what so ever.
a. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence........this pretty much sums it up. denial of existence means that nothing exists, hence the fact that some people believe in nothing.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i never said that you were a nihilist if you did not believe in god. everyone knows that that makes you an atheist.a. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence........this pretty much sums it up. denial of existence means that nothing exists, hence the fact that some people believe in nothing.
Yes, and how is "not believing" denying all existence? As I said - Nihilist is a nihilist when they meet the criteria. Until that time they are simply a person with no beliefs. People who don't believe in anything don't necessarily think they don't exist or that the world doesn't.
Nihilism is taking it to an extreme level. A person who doesn't believe is not a Nihilist until you meet those criteria your definition shows. Nihilism, in this sense, can not be used as a blanket term for people with a lack of belief.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Yes, and how is "not believing" denying all existence? As I said - Nihilist is a nihilist when they meet the criteria. Until that time they are simply a person with no beliefs. People who don't believe in anything don't necessarily think they don't exist or that the world doesn't.Nihilism is taking it to an extreme level. A person who doesn't believe is not a Nihilist until you meet those criteria your definition shows. Nihilism, in this sense, can not be used as a blanket term for people with a lack of belief.
SOmeone who is dubts god or questions his existance...is termed an agnostic.
Someone who states that there is no god...is an atheist.
Originally posted by Alliance
SOmeone who is dubts god or questions his existance...is termed an agnostic.Someone who states that there is no god...is an atheist.
Indeed - and I think this part of the article is relevant to what is happening here:
Nihilism is often more a charge leveled against a particular idea, movement, or group, than it is an actual philosophical position to which someone overtly subscribes. Movements such as Dadaism[2] and deconstructionism,[3] among others, have been described by commentators as "nihilist" at various times in various contexts. Often this means or is meant to imply that the beliefs of the accuser are more substantial or truthful, whereas the beliefs of the accused are nihilistic, and thereby comparatively amount to nothing.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Nihilism is a philosophical position which argues that the world, and especially human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value.what does this mean to you?
Exactly what it says. It is a philosophical position and thus mindset that meets the criteria of Nihilism.
Fundamentally a lack of belief does not equal the belief that the universe and life either don't exist or exist without purpose, meaning or value. Which is what I have been saying. Call a Nihilist a Nihilist. However don't think a person who says "I don't believe in anything" is a Nihilist. Just like in the bit of the wiki article above - Nihilism is a specific thing that is overused in the wrong context. A person without belief is just that: a person without belief. When they express a Nihilist point of view then they become a Nihilist. Until that time they are simply a person without a nameable belief.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
then what is the term for this person without belief? what do you call someone who believes in nothing?
Does there have to be a term for it? Cant we just say "believes in nothing"? There are terms for particular types of non-belief. And there are terms for certain philosophies dealing with views on belief and non-belief. As Storm said their is a deficiency here. I dare say it is born out of a ignorance in the past where the thought of a person without religion was a person pointless, when that is not the case.
Whats the term for a person who wants to evolve into a hippopotamus?
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Does there have to be a term for it? Cant we just say "believes in nothing"? There are terms for particular types of non-belief. And there are terms for certain philosophies dealing with views on belief and non-belief. As Storm said their is a deficiency here. I dare say it is born out of a ignorance in the past where the thought of a person without religion was a person pointless, when that is not the case.Whats the term for a person who wants to evolve into a hippopotamus?
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
first of all, there are probably no people who want to "evolve" into a hippo. to "evolve" means to move forward, not become a thing that already exists.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. There are some people with odd views out their, there were the ancient cults based upon animals and the desire to become like them. And then there are those odd pumpkins I like to call ID adherents who argue against evolution by saying "So, I guess I should be able to evolve into a tree/hippo/cat?"
secondly, there are alot of people who fit the description of believing in nothing, so, yes, there must be a term for it. apparently everyone here, including myself, is clueless as to what this term might be.
Well, I still debate the claim there are many who really do believe "in nothing." The claim that maybe they don't believe in anything big, but generally there are things they will believe in, even if it is just "I believe if I eat this muffin I wont be hungry any more."
But I don't know of a term that can be used as a blanket, simply because there is to much variance in people. What about skepticism? I find that slightly more acceptable to the masses "without belief" then using Nihilism.
But really you find out is all about categories. Numerous post modern theories based on types of non-belief. And why one is not a believer. And whether not believing actually means you believe nothing exists.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I wouldn't be so sure of that. There are some people with odd views out their, there were the ancient cults based upon animals and the desire to become like them. And then there are those odd pumpkins I like to call ID adherents who argue against evolution by saying "So, I guess I should be able to evolve into a tree/hippo/cat?"Well, I still debate the claim there are many who really do believe "in nothing." The claim that maybe they don't believe in anything big, but generally there are things they will believe in, even if it is just "I believe if I eat this muffin I wont be hungry any more."
But I don't know of a term that can be used as a blanket, simply because there is to much variance in people. What about skepticism? I find that slightly more acceptable to the masses "without belief" then using Nihilism.
But really you find out is all about categories. Numerous post modern theories based on types of non-belief. And why one is not a believer. And whether not believing actually means you believe nothing exists.