Nightmare vs. Devil Jin

You want to give Jin an unsolicited advantage because he can't beat Nightmare's highest showing himself?

Jin never drained anyone canonically, and he only drained Jinpachi in an unofficial ending...

Nightmare trounces Jin in his highest showing,

and if you want to take the road you just described, then Nightmare will have ample time to drain the souls of thousands of people, making him even stronger...

And, just for added effect, Nightmare's power, when the Soul Edge has been well fed, affects things across the planet (Taki's blades losing their strength, the whole evil seed thing, turning peole evil, effacting wether patterns into unnatural states, weakening both good and evil energy everywhere...

No, at best, Jin still gets trounced by Nightmare's highest powers.

Oh one more thing, If DJ retreats, that counts as a victory for Nightmare...so running away to gain more power is a loss for DJ.

Originally posted by Mesirus
Siegfried Schtauffen is such a Cloud wannabe, lol

Heh, I beleive I sided with Nightmare in the last thread like this, and I havn't seen anything that has changed my mind... Nightmare is a frigging monster, with the demonstrated ability to go against entire armies (Literally hundreds, even thousands of men, armed with their steel armour and carrying all sorts of weaponry).
Lasers and flight you say? those beams are a little too easy to anticipate, and they leave DJ open for far too long... Nightmare has considerably more strength in his attacks (Obviously he has a sword)... His range is also considerably better than DJ's, because he has to rely on his fists and feet... Plus, Nightmare has this really cool move, where he produces shockwaves (it also acts as an auto blocker)...
Pure storyline speaking, Nightmare's sword gives him a range of different abilities, such as unnaturally long life, superhuman strength and endurance, and the sword feeds on souls, making him stronger...
DJ is strong, no question, but there's little chance of him walking away from a Psychotic Supernaturally enhanced knight wielding a Demon sword thats bigger than Jin is...
No question in my mind, Nightmare wins.

By the way, do you guys know that some people are speculating that the source of "devil" in the Mishima family is because of "soul edge"? many people are assuming that Heishiro Mitsurugi is the ancestor of the Mishimas. i don't know why they say so, but lots of people think that....especially after looking at Jinpachi's T5 ending and the intro of SC3. i don't know...but that is what some poeple are saying.
later, dudes.

Siegfried Schtauffen is such a Cloud wannabe, lol

~Sado

i agree with darkstorm. Devil jin was getting his ass kicked by Hwoarrang in the T6 promotional video. I doubt he can do anything against an insane psychotic killing machine like Nightmare. also hwoarang pushed Devil Jin away on the defensive with a few kicks...Nightmare has a 6foot zweihander that is made of pure evil energy.

okay so Devil Jin can blast at him with his laser beam. however:
-Nightmare can block it with his sword since his sword is a zweihander which are pretty damn sturdy and have A LOT of durability.

-Nightmare can dodge it too (dah).

Like DS said, the beam thing leaves Devil Jin very open and drained and that is suicide against Nightmare.

By the way, do you guys know that some people are speculating that the source of "devil" in the Mishima family is because of "soul edge"? many people are assuming that Heishiro Mitsurugi is the ancestor of the Mishimas. i don't know why they say so, but lots of people think that....especially after looking at Jinpachi's T5 ending and the intro of SC3. i don't know...but that is what some poeple are saying.
later, dudes.

Requim>>buster sword

Seigfriend>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>C"R"oud"o"

Nightmare, he has the friggen Soul Edge. His apearance in the SC3 intro made him look pretty damn tough. He wiped out an army with what looked to be a power up.

Whatever you guys. I already said if Nightmare and Jin don't get upgrades, then they'll be watered down fighting against each other. Nightmare takes human souls whereas Jin gains the powers of others. It's as simple as that.

Nightmare ~ Devil Jin

Nightmare and D.Jin are upgrades, right?

Originally posted by Remulous
Nightmare and D.Jin are upgrades, right?

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Actually, no. I'm aiming to be fair in this fight.

How? by jobbing Nightmare while giving Jin a power boost? yeah thats real fair...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Doesn't change the fact that he can, and can achieve more power than he'd have if he had drained Jinpachi's power.

It requires proof, OFFICLA proof that he can....

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Yet to prove it.

I ahvn't seen you prove how Nightmare loses either...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
If I remember correctly, it took Jin a few seconds to absorb Jinpachi's power and become immensely stronger. Jin in his human form defeated Kazuya and Heihachi in a few moments. Nightmare didn't kill fleets of armies in that short amount of time. Also, the number of souls it would take Nightmare to gain in the period which Jin takes to achieve Kazuya and Heihachi's power isn't anywhere as high of an upgrade Jin would get.

He absorbed strong pwers... Nightmare can do the same if he absorbed someone incredibly strong... and the fact that Nightmare can absorb people by the thousands at once tells me that the Power Boost argument is in nightmare's favour.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
I don't know about that. FYI, Kilik defeated Nightmare canonically. Someone who wouldn't stand a chance in hell against Devil Jin.

Three things, Krita Yuga, Kali Yuga, and Soul Calibur... 3 objects designed di actually combat the Soul Edge's power...

Guess what that makes this particular point... a case of PIS, and is therefore inadmissable as an argument.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Didn't see where you proved it.

Using the same argument twice doesn't make it any more correct than it was the first time...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Did you start this thread? No. So I don't see you making the rules. Also, this isn't a tournament battle. This is most likely a fight to the death, and both characters can do just about whatever they want as long as they win in the end.

For the purposes of a VS debate, fleeing the scene of the battle is retreating, and therefore counts as a loss... No, I din't start the thread, but it's a common sense thing, in a theoretical debate about video game characters, if one subject cannot win the fight under his own power, and retreats to find an outside scource of energy, not only is that an act of PIS, but the retreat itself qualifies as a loss.

Do you recall Kilik beating the shit out of Nightmare? Not trying to say Hwoarang's any better, but comparing Jin to Hwoarang is pretty much like comparing Nightmare to Kilik, who technically speaking sent Nightmare into a coma. Hwoarang did not defeat Devil Jin; I remember seeing him running after Jin knocked the tower down on him. Also, if you've seen Hwoarang's Tekken 5 ending, you'd know Hwoarang wouldn't stand a chance at all against Jin

see ya around
~Sado

oh and....

You must be crazy.

Originally posted by Sado22
cloud is overrated as hell. admit it.

How? by jobbing Nightmare while giving Jin a power boost? yeah thats real fair...

It requires proof, OFFICLA proof that he can....

I ahvn't seen you prove how Nightmare loses either...

He absorbed strong pwers... Nightmare can do the same if he absorbed someone incredibly strong... and the fact that Nightmare can absorb people by the thousands at once tells me that the Power Boost argument is in nightmare's favour.

Three things, Krita Yuga, Kali Yuga, and Soul Calibur... 3 objects designed di actually combat the Soul Edge's power...

Guess what that makes this particular point... a case of PIS, and is therefore inadmissable as an argument.

Using the same argument twice doesn't make it any more correct than it was the first time...

For the purposes of a VS debate, fleeing the scene of the battle is retreating, and therefore counts as a loss...

No, I din't start the thread, but it's a common sense thing, in a theoretical debate about video game characters, if one subject cannot win the fight under his own power, and retreats to find an outside scource of energy, not only is that an act of PIS, but the retreat itself qualifies as a loss. [/B]

Nightmare wins. Learn it. Accept it. Live with it.

I was afraid someone would say that...yeah I guess Nightmare wins then since hardly anyone is arguing for Jin.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Actually, I said both characters should get those upgrades, not just Jin. Also if you read back, I said only then they would be tied because they would have just about equal power. I'm not one-sided in this.

Alright... since this is your argument that both characters get unsolicited upgrades, and since both characters start at their regular best, guess what, Nightmare can simply obtain Soul Calibur and transform into Night terror, and guess what that means... Jin Dies horribly...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
He can damn well take the powers of others; Kazuya and Ogre can do it, why not Jin? Oh, and even though it's a noncanonnical ending, it still shows what could have happened. That alone proves it.

Prove it... where canonically did Jin Absorb any powers? Where did Kazuya do it for that matter? Oh, and Ogre feeds on souls and abient energy, so that argument is moot 😉

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Did I say he loses? No. Learn to read posts correctly. If you're talking about which weaker version would win, I said Jin because I don't see anyway Nightmare can damage him.

You have said that Jin is outof Nightmars reach and therefore can't be damages, sounds like a claim for victory to me... 😐

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Absorb many at once, but Nightmare has to kill those people first. I already said Nightmare took longer to kill fleets of armies (who Jin could kill easily btw) than it took Jin to beat two people, who could easily pummel Jacks so I know for a fact those are better upgrades than a bunch of regular humans in armor.
After all, Heihachi was a huge upgrade for Ogre. This guy survived an explosion in the face. Also, Kazuya is a Devil just like Jin...

And Jin has to defeat them, long hard battles... Plus, Nightmare can absorb the souls of strong warriors, absorb evil energy, and like I said before, all he has to do is find Soul Calibur and become Night Terror...

And you think Jin can do instantly what Nightmare did? that clinches it... you know nothing about Nightmare or the Soul Edge...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
At that time I bet. Also, you underestimate Jin's power.

How? Where did I say Jin wasn't powerful? All I said was that as powerful as DJ is, Nightmare is that much stronger, And where do you get the idea that the Devil Power acts as a counter to the Soul Edge? the Soul Edge feeds on evil energy as much as it feeds on souls...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
I don't see where I said anything that isn't acceptable.

You went for an example of Kilik beating Nightmare from SC1, and I countered with what he was using, In this case the Yuga's and Soul Calibur, all weapons and items designed to combat Soul Edge. Not only that, but Maxi and Xianghua where also there to help, therefore that battle is akin to the Kusanagi/Yagami/Yata battle against Orochi... IOW a big case of PIS.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Restated my argument since you apparently failed to listen to it I guess.

You fail to understand your own posts before you send them, and then try to blame me? righto...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Giving one character an upgrade for no reason is also called cheating.

Thats right, so don't do it...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
This pretty much proves Nightmare loses then since the power he draws is not his own, and thus loses according to your definition of a loss. I guess that screws you over.

Wrong, his highest normal showing starts him with whatever he's eaten already, DJ's highest showing is T5 default... You cannot change this to suit your argument.

Alright... since this is your argument that both characters get unsolicited upgrades, and since both characters start at their regular best, guess what, Nightmare can simply obtain Soul Calibur and transform into Night terror, and guess what that means... Jin Dies horribly...

Prove it... where canonically did Jin Absorb any powers? Where did Kazuya do it for that matter?

Oh, and Ogre feeds on souls and abient energy, so that argument is moot 😉

You have said that Jin is outof Nightmars reach and therefore can't be damages, sounds like a claim for victory to me... 😐[/quote[
Can you read? I said Jin's out of reach whereas Nightmare isn't. He'll get pummeled by Jin's beams constantly and he doesn't have much to do about that other than blocking it with his sword, which he'll have a hard time doing considering the speed of the attack.

[QUOTE]And Jin has to defeat them, long hard battles...

Plus, Nightmare can absorb the souls of strong warriors, absorb evil energy,

and like I said before, all he has to do is find Soul Calibur and become Night Terror...

And you think Jin can do instantly what Nightmare did? that clinches it... you know nothing about Nightmare or the Soul Edge...

How? Where did I say Jin wasn't powerful? All I said was that as powerful as DJ is, Nightmare is that much stronger,

And where do you get the idea that the Devil Power acts as a counter to the Soul Edge? the Soul Edge feeds on evil energy as much as it feeds on souls...

You went for an example of Kilik beating Nightmare from SC1, and I countered with what he was using, In this case the Yuga's and Soul Calibur, all weapons and items designed to combat Soul Edge. Not only that, but Maxi and Xianghua where also there to help, therefore that battle is akin to the Kusanagi/Yagami/Yata battle against Orochi... IOW a big case of PIS.

You fail to understand your own posts before you send them, and then try to blame me? righto...

Thats right, so don't do it...

Wrong, his highest normal showing starts him with whatever he's eaten already, DJ's highest showing is T5 default... You cannot change this to suit your argument. [/B]

Oh...and if you've read back, you'd know that I agreed Nightmare wins, so countering my whole post was just as a waste of time as this one was.

Darn, my typos are getting worse.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Well...Night Terror is the final boss in Soul Calibur 3...as Jinpachi is in Tekken 5...and technically speaking he's been defeated just like Jinpachi...so bringing him up is as good as me mentioning Jinpachi, who Jin can defeat and take powers from. I don't see Night Terror surviving against True Devil Jin.

Night Terror is the Hidden boss, Jinpachi was the generic (And only) boss of T5... We don't know if Night Terror was ever defeated, since his only battle was against Zasalamel, and Zas lost badly. Night Terror would mop the floor with any Tekken Character bar none...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
As I said, even though the endings aren't canonical, doesn't neccessarily mean they're impossible. It means what could've happened did not happen in the story.

It's eye candy, therefore it's not relative to the debate.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Have you played Tekken 3? Ogre took Heihachi's power and transformed becoming more powerful than he initially was.

That doesn't mean a thing dude... all that proves is that Ogre absorbed Heihachi's capabilities for a short time... Damn man it wasn't even permanent.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
They weren't very hard battles and like I said before, he beat them in his human form. In his Devil Form he would take them out easily.

Thats crap... if Kaz was in his devil form, I see a draw since Kazuya's devil is more pure.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
As Jin can take Kazuya's and Heichachi's power, transforming him into an immensely powerful creature.

How do you come to the comclusion that kaz and Hachi are even there? see what I mean by unsolicited advantage?

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
This is like saying Jin goes out to find Jinpachi and takes his power.

And you see again? did the thread state that the characters can just go and find these people and objects? or even where they are? You see, doing this detracts from the original debate and brings in outside influences, changing the characters, and destroying the point of the debate.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Actually, I know a lot of Nightmare and the story of Soul Calibur. Also, I said killing fleets of armies isn't as quick as beating two people. I wasn't comparing the times that it takes to take power.

Oh, yeah... even though it took 3 separate one on one fights for Jin do it the first time... all the while Nightmare is shredding 6 men per swipe of his sword.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
But how do you know?

Two reasons...

One: Sigfried exists in a world where fights to the death where much more common, therefore a warrior of his calibur has to be insanely strong and well versed in the killing arts of his weapon and in the fighting skills. IOW, Sigfriend fights to kill at all times.

Two: The Soul Edge dramatically increases the strength and fighting capabilities of whoever is holding, not only that, but the demon blade also imparts several supernatural powers upon it's host (I've already told you some of them)

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
So you're saying the Soul Edge will feed off of Jin's power automatically? I thought it feeds off human souls and gives off evil energy.

Yes, since thats exactly what it does, It feeds off of foreign evil energy, yes it gives off evil energy as well, but that energy (Prime example being the Evil Seed) is a product of it's own power, and not something else,

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
I just brought that up since someone said earlier Hwoarang could take Devil which apparently is false.

Sado din't say Howarang beat Jin, he said that Howarang put him on the defense from the get go, and it took a Power Blast from DJ to even the score...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
You fail to understand what I say in my post...and I have understood everything you've said up to this point...you're giving Nightmare advantages while downplaying Jin. Keep up the good work.

I didn't downplay Jin at all, I attacked the use of the Jinpachi absorbtion argument because it has no bearing in this fight... Like I said, if you want to give Jin this advantage, then you have to give a comparable advantage to Nightmare. In this case, the ability to transform into Night Terror

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Tell yourself that.

I'm going to ignore that, since it was you who wanted to use the Jinpachi Absorbtion argument...

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
You said if a character is using a power that is not his own, they would lose since they're being given an unsolicited advantage. Is Nightmare's power inherently his? Didn't think so. Same thing goes for Jin, he can become more powerful pretty much the same way Nightmare can.

I explained it before, handing one character an unsolicited advantage is unfair, the argument is supposed to be the characters in ther prime showing IN THE GAME... not some fanciful endings and eye candy... HOW POWERFUL THEY WHERE IN THE GAME...

This means Nightmare as his powers as they where when the Soul Edge is complete (Minus Soul Calibur) and the sword is well fed, Versus Devil Jin as he was in Tekken 5... No more, no less.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Oh...and if you've read back, you'd know that I agreed Nightmare wins, so countering my whole post was just as a waste of time as this one was.

I counter it because even though you concede the debate, your still arguing certain points that I don't agree with, and therefore I will debate them reguardless.

im sorry but reguarding your "what if heihachi and kazuya werent there"

statement: why the hell would hundreds of men be there randomly attacking nightmare not only that but would devil jin not feed off of the evil energy being ommited by soul edge plus dj plus sky plus lazers equals: OMGSPLOSION!!!!