Team Tournament Information and Discussion Thread

Originally posted by TheKahn
From what I understood Digi meant the other judges.

Funny... I'm a judge.... i was never consulted.

yeah, i figured. basically val, xmarks and illadelph ok'd the idea of the constructs. all 3 HAVE acted as judges (i assumed they would judge OUR match, but now i'm not sure . . .)

anyway, with the 3 of them, it didn't seem to matter how you voted, so it 'was settled'.

😬

There's been at least 8 judges active in this tourney... plus Digi.... and i'm sure a few of the people involved in the matches would like a say as well..... but basically i just want to know why Digi is allowing teams of 8 in these 3 Vs 3 matches

If this tactic was brought up during the drafts there's no way it would have been allowed... as i'm sure those using it know

Originally posted by leonidas
play nice . . .? uh-oh . . .

after a little chat with digi, we decided to kick off the OTHER semi-final with a little PRE-MATCH controversy. too bad digi will miss all the fun! i guess we'll just let all possible judges speak on the issue and maybe render THEIR opinions of the situation. and of course anyone else is free to chime in. 😉

now, let me preface by saying i luv bw and nj. and they both hopefully know that. but . . . this is WAR biatches and i've seen alls i can stands and i can't stands no more!! ergo, i'd like to address the legalities of these 'daxamite' "constructs" they have employed and may be employing again. (if you're NOT planning on using them, then read no further!! 😄 )

now, yes, i KNOW they were allowed in the first rd, but that should NOT have any bearing on their being allowed in the next round. i was disappointed that khell didn't question them more than he did. i know at least ONE judge/spectator did however. kahn and i sure as hell did too! so, just because khell ended up accepting them, doesn't mean kahn and i have to.

with that, let's start with a little walk down memory lane. these are excerpted from the rd 2 draft thread:

___

[b]Scoob: . . . Looks like Shaman got in but he will not be allowed to pull other characters (or copies of other characters) out of his bag

Unlike in the last tourney, this time you will all be limited to the number of characters set out in the draft

BW: Im cool with that

KHELL: But they aren't duplicates of anyone. So I want it clarified. Is that tactic allowed or not.

VAL: I think we all agreed that only people who would be fighting would be the drafted characters and nothing else they could pull out of their hat...or pouch.

SCOOB: Green Lanterns and Quasar have to keep their concentration on a construct to keep animating it... they don't give them the ability to act independently... which i assume the rock monsters would

SCOOB: Quasar's constructs still exist after he forgets about them... but they can't do anything without someone controlling them

DIGI: I have no problem with the rock monsters. If a few slow-ass, unintelligent golems are worrying people, I'd seriously re-think your strategies boys.

VAL: Are those scans the best example of the rock monsters? If so I don't really see the cause for complaint.

KHELL: Yes, and one of the rules was NO LOOPHOLES. I'm just pushing a suggestion that closes down one of those loopholes.

NJ: The problem is that the rock giants are nothing more than an attack they may be able to move on their own but its not like they have great intellects. They are not a loophole Digi stated himself that they were ok as soon as he said Loki's dragon clouds things weren't breaking the limits.

Basically if you do this then your singling out one power in particular and saying that banned powers can work on them. Those powers are banned for reasons and if you allow then to be used in any reason then it is unfair to the team employing them because your singleing out their attack. Thus rises the question of why can't we do it to all attacks against us or why can't we simply effect the environment with these banned powers to beat them as we aren't directly fighting them.

___

😆

i will go ahead and give some immediate props to both khell and scoob. both of them seemed to have an inkling that something bad would come from the decision to allow independent constructs to be used. and i give nj and bw props on . . . sneakiness, because the irony of course is that bw and nj were never really arguing for SHAMAN! the constructs they were so slyly trying to sneak in were kyle's. let's look back at digi's comment:

DIGI: I have no problem with the rock monsters. If a few slow-ass, unintelligent golems are worrying people, I'd seriously re-think your strategies boys.

okay, so now we know that we're NOT talking about "a few slow-ass, unintelligent golems", rather we're talking about HIGHLY intelligent, speed-sharing, gl ring-wearing, superman strength having, DAXAMITES!!

based on that ALONE, and this:

KHELL: Yes, and one of the rules was NO LOOPHOLES. I'm just pushing a suggestion that closes down one of those loopholes.

yep -- NO LOOPHOLES!! i'd say having found a way to sneak in independent constructs based on the assumption that they were rock golems or unintelligent loki-made dragons, would fall under the "it's time to neuter this bullshite under the NO LOOPHOLES clause!!" i think it was pretty clear (and anyone can go back and read the thread for themselves) what was INTENDED to be allowed. can you imagine if one of shaman's powers was he could reach in his bag and pull out 5 power-ring wielding speed-sharing daxamites???? think THAT would have got through . . . come on . . .

if the fact that they SNUCK these things past the rules isn't enough, there is of course one OTHER little issue . . .

KYLE HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO BE ABLE TO CONSCIOUSLY CREATE CONSTRUCTS LIKE THAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the imaginary glc he created in the circle of fire mini was done UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY WITHOUT KYLE'S KNOWLEDGE, EFFORT, OR CONSENT!! and why were they created in the first place? to battle this little fellow -- whom kyle's ring ALSO brought into being WITHOUT kyle's knowledge, effort or consent:

http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oblivion4qu3.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oblivion5so5.jpg

the oblivion entity CRUSHED the jla. now, if kyle can make his daxamites in the tournament, why wouldn't he just bring in this bad boy? because oblivion is above the powerlevel limit? not good enough. he should STILL be able to bring him out -- maybe at a lower level or something?? but i cannot imagine anyone would okay oblivion. the glc was made to help defeat that being. but how independent were they and how absolutely certain was kyle that he summoned from from different times and different dimensions?

http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=death1ga3.jpg

http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=death2oh8.jpg

kyle actually believed one of them was KILLED!!! he had NO CLUE he created (actually the ring did it on it's own . . . without kyle's asking it to) them at all. and even when he DID find out he had no conscious control over them and had to practically beg them to re-enter his mind. why? because they were killing him being outside him!! they weren't just constructs, they were FACETS OF HIS PERSONALITY.

http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=subconscious1gv3.jpg

these were NOT your run-of-the-mill constructs. they were not made through anything kyle consciously did. could he recreate them in the tournament? sure, as any REGULAR construct. could he consciously recreate them so they are independent?? NO!!! not unless i see some proof. and NO that battle against that 'god' where kyle copied himself and made the god think it was him is ABSOLUTLEY NOT the same thing!! why? because if you look at his scan, it is clear at the end that the construct fully understood and knew it WAS just a construct. we also have no proof it acted independently because we don't see kyle until AFTER the fight. he was hidden and more than likely was controlling the construct. at the very least there is again ZERO proof that that copy acted independently in any way at all. so, no, that scan is NOT good enough evidence that kyle can create independent constructs.

now bw's favourite quote seems to be that batman quote saying the ring can do "anything." then . . . if that's true, why is it that gl's were even ALLOWED in the tournament?? as has been proven time and again, gl's are NOT invincible, so no, it cannot do 'anything'. one thing it can't do: consciously create independent constructs. those constructs in circle of fire fooled EVERYONE!! they were in almost everyway REAL people. kyle cannot do that consciously: at least bw and nj have shown no evidence to support that claim.

lastly, if you need yet ANOTHER reason to disallow them: those special constructs were reabsorbed into kyle (remember they were less constructs and more manifestations of his personality that kyle couldn't live without) and USED in kyle's mind to keep oblivion trapped!!

http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trappednn0.jpg

so if he DID decide to try and consciously set them free again . . . OBLIVION would also be set free!!

if they say they are not making the "SAME" exact constructs, then i want to know which facets of kyle's personality he is going to imbue them with to 'make them real'??

to sum up: the constructs were not 'typical' constructs. they were made real without his consent, knowledge or effort. one went so far as to get killed and kyle STILL didn't know they came from his ring. bw and nj have never shown evidence kyle can create anything like them consciously (i already discarded the kyle copy against the god). without the personality facets (that what they were) kyle was dying. and on top of all that, they are being used to keep in oblivion. ANOTHER personality facet.

they tried to 'sneak' these constructs in by making it seem like we were allowing unintelligent golems or dragons, and they somehow got through the first round without even having to show evidence that kyle could even MAKE them!!! for both those reasons and everything listed above, i would like the judges to invoke the 'NO LOOPHOLES CLAUSE' and ban those ridiculous 'constructs'.

well done to bw and nj for getting through as far as they did. but i trust they'll need to be a little more convincing if they are to be allowed to use them in the NEXT round. 😉

the prosecution rests. 😄 [/B]

Originally posted by leonidas
i will add there WAS support for our position AGAINST the constructs. damn, scoob, i was begging you to make an appearance here about 5 days ago!

My saying that the matter was "settled" wasn't the correct word to use. Nothing is ever settled unless there is widespread consensus, and I merely didn't receive enough opposition aside from leo's comments, to justify continued debate on it.

If we want to open the discussion back up, that's fine by me. I didn't mean to put off Scoob by saying it was over with. I merely was trying to quell possible unneeded discussion in the battle.

The independant construct rule was created some time ago (5 right?) and while I can understand the problem created by the whole 8-v-8 thing I find it difficult to overturn easily without more backing.

Thoughts?

The most convincing argument I've seen involves the "no loopholes" clause that seems to be getting violated by these constructs. Since it is from both teams in this week's fight, no great advantage would be conferred if it were taken away from both, and it would also add a degree of fairness to others who were under the assumption that this would be a 3-on-3 tourney.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The independant construct rule was created some time ago.

It was argued for by BW and NJ, using the example of rock monsters...... probably because if people knew that it meant 5 extra herald level characters it would never have been allowed in.... it was deceit, pure and simple

How about the "rule" that all characters are limited to herald level.... one character having the power of 6 herald levelers definitely puts him above herald level

Or the "under Thanos" 'rule' - Thanos without any IG or whatever wouldn't beat 5 Superman GLs or 5/6 GL Silver Surfers

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Power – Generally, “under Thanos” is the rule. We’ll define it more as needed. People that duplicate and copy powers aren’t allowed either.

.......................................

Everyone loves to find loopholes, so we have a "no freaking loopholes" rule in effect at all times. We can change the limits or ban people as we see fit to ensure fair battles , and will deal with every character on an individual basis.

If we're ensuring "fair battles".... I fail to see how an 8 Vs 3 situation was allowed to occur

Again - Rock monster type constructs would've been fine because they wouldn't severely tip the balance of power, additional Super-GLs or GL-Surfers obviously will do (and have done) that

I don't think the independent construct tactic should be banned outright. I think a more dynamic limitation should be placed on it however. The characters in question use constructs as there primary means of attack, including independently acting constructs. I think the use of this tactic should come at a loss of self protection as a consequence.

Basically, if any character with the ability to create these independent constructs wishes to use the ability they do it at the expense of raising defensive shielding as the power allocated to shielding would be diverted to maintaining the constructs. Also, their teammates would not be able to shield them either as that would "sever the connection" to the constructs and they would cease to exist on the battlefield. The character would still be able to act offensively and use personal speed to evade attack, however.

This way BW and Newjak get to keep there tactic [which is actually within the rules], but the loophole of it being a seemingly insurmountable obstacle is taken away because in order to use the attack the construct originating character would be defenseless.

Also, Khells almost beat them in the first round. This attack isn't really that big of a deal if you debate against it's merits properly.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I don't think the independent construct tactic should be banned outright. I think a more dynamic limitation should be placed on it however. The characters in question use constructs as there primary means of attack, including independently acting constructs. I think the use of this tactic should come at a loss of self protection as a consequence.

Basically, if any character with the ability to create these independent constructs wishes to use the ability they do it at the expense of raising defensive shielding as the power allocated to shielding would be diverted to maintaining the constructs. Also, their teammates would not be able to shield them either as that would "sever the connection" to the constructs and they would cease to exist on the battlefield. The character would still be able to act offensively and use personal speed to evade attack, however.

This way BW and Newjak get to keep there tactic [which is actually within the rules], but the loophole of it being a seemingly insurmountable obstacle is taken away because in order to use the attack the construct originating character would be defenseless.

Also, Khells almost beat them in the first round. This attack isn't really that big of a deal if you debate against it's merits properly.

listen as you've said they break no rules given. They are constructs in every sense of the word that if Kyle goes they go. The only rule that is being questioned is whether or not they break the no loophole rule.

Which was intended to simply not allow in truely one hit kill abilities like Zantana. Or say the ability to destroy everyones mind without the ability for any defense. Khell's attack breaks the rule more than ours ever would. as said they aren't unbeatable they are a tactical advantage that can be exploited doesn't mean they should be banned because they are hard to overcome because there is a big difference between being hard to overcome and absolutly unable to overcome.
I think that needs to be taken into consideration friends.

While I'm here I would like to ask Digi what is the idea behind shieldin during prep somemore. Can it as Ill said only be used to say summon one shield per person or can you summon as many shields as one wants. Like stated in our prep

As long as it pertains to shielding, there aren't really limits during prep.

And I basically made the shielding rule so that speedblitz-type arguments would be avoiding in the opening seconds of the fight.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
As long as it pertains to shielding, there aren't really limits during prep.

And I basically made the shielding rule so that speedblitz-type arguments would be avoiding in the opening seconds of the fight.

Silver Surfer speedblitzed Magneto in the previous round. 😐

Originally posted by Validus
Silver Surfer speedblitzed Magneto in the previous round. 😐

*sigh*

It doesn't prevent a speedblitz, it just gives the opposition an opportunity to already have a shield up when the fight starts so there aren't cheap-death arguments. Speed advantages can still obviously be used.

P.S. Nice sig. Skeets?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
*sigh*

It doesn't prevent a speedblitz, it just gives the opposition an opportunity to already have a shield up when the fight starts so there aren't cheap-death arguments. Speed advantages can still obviously be used.

P.S. Nice sig. Skeets?

If the advantage of speed is still considered, whats to stop a blitz anyway? Or do we just not care about that?

Originally posted by Validus
Yes.

If the advantage of speed is still considered, whats to stop a blitz anyway? Or do we just not care about that?

I remember Surfer speed blitzing Magneto in the previous round.

Thor speedblitzed my entire team as well, so speedblitz should be valid.

Originally posted by Validus
Yes.

If the advantage of speed is still considered, whats to stop a blitz anyway? Or do we just not care about that?

Nothing really. We stopped Flash-like reaction feats, and generally banned the idea of a pico-second "speedblitz" ...but using a character's speed to get the first attack in is fine. We can't standardize attack speeds really, so it's about thebest we can do.

can we PLEASE establish what is and is NOT allowable in prep?? it seems bw and nj were operating under one set of assumptions (stacking shields, casting spells, etc . . .) while we were acting under a second set: no stacking shields, no creating the rings in prep. and if shaman CAN summon spirits and spells, why exactly can't hal summon his ss's . . .? 😕

Originally posted by leonidas
can we PLEASE establish what is and is NOT allowable in prep?? it seems bw and nj were operating under one set of assumptions (stacking shields, casting spells, etc . . .) while we were acting under a second set: no stacking shields, no creating the rings in prep. and if shaman CAN summon spirits and spells, why exactly can't hal summon his ss's . . .? 😕

I nthe end all we did was make shields in our prep while you guys were pre programming rings and other stuff.

Basically as Digi said as long as it is shields there isn't any limit on what you can do for prep.

Originally posted by Validus
Silver Surfer speedblitzed Magneto in the previous round. 😐

ALLEGEDLY speedblitzed!!!!!!! 😠 They didn't even give a decent explanation as to how he would get passed that many shields!!!!! 😠