Originally posted by TheKahnI think he is asking would you or Leo have brought it up if he could not if another team could?
Yes, I think that one of the teams would have brought up this point and had this been a well known feat of either Hal or Kyle I imagine it would have been banned from the start of the tourney.
Originally posted by Validus
Let me rephrase.Would this issue have been brought to attention by Leo and Kahn if Hal had shown similar feats?
Why would they? You take every advantage when it presents itself. But in this case, it so happens that bw and newjak got busted and the same would've happened with Kahn and leo.
Originally posted by Validus
Let me rephrase.Would this issue have been brought to attention by Leo and Kahn if Hal had shown similar feats?
Honestly? No. I imagine Leo and I would have tried to take advantage of this tactic but then again I couldn't then complain when others challenged the legality of it either. But that doesn't make the tactic legal in and of itself.
Originally posted by batdude123
Why would they? You take every advantage when it presents itself. But in this case, it so happens that bw and newjak got busted and the same would've happened with Kahn and leo.
Look at the facts here. Kyle is a Green Lantern. There's not a single named Green Lantern out there that doesn't have feats beyond what we deem herald level. Hal Jordan is a character with 20 some years of crazy ass Pre-Crisis feats that are still canon. To me, it just makes no sense to ban Green Lantern constructs. Granted they stretch the rules but GL's in general stretch the rules since you're talking about characters with no set limit on their power.
Originally posted by leonidas
play nice . . .? uh-oh . . .after a little chat with digi, we decided to kick off the OTHER semi-final with a little PRE-MATCH controversy. too bad digi will miss all the fun! i guess we'll just let all possible judges speak on the issue and maybe render THEIR opinions of the situation. and of course anyone else is free to chime in. 😉
now, let me preface by saying i luv bw and nj. and they both hopefully know that. but . . . this is WAR biatches and i've seen alls i can stands and i can't stands no more!! ergo, i'd like to address the legalities of these 'daxamite' "constructs" they have employed and may be employing again. (if you're NOT planning on using them, then read no further!! 😄 )
now, yes, i KNOW they were allowed in the first rd, but that should NOT have any bearing on their being allowed in the next round. i was disappointed that khell didn't question them more than he did. i know at least ONE judge/spectator did however. kahn and i sure as hell did too! so, just because khell ended up accepting them, doesn't mean kahn and i have to.
with that, let's start with a little walk down memory lane. these are excerpted from the rd 2 draft thread:
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[b]Scoob:
. . . Looks like Shaman got in but he will not be allowed to pull other characters (or copies of other characters) out of his bagUnlike in the last tourney, this time you will all be limited to the number of characters set out in the draft
BW: Im cool with that
KHELL: But they aren't duplicates of anyone. So I want it clarified. Is that tactic allowed or not.
VAL: I think we all agreed that only people who would be fighting would be the drafted characters and nothing else they could pull out of their hat...or pouch.
SCOOB: Green Lanterns and Quasar have to keep their concentration on a construct to keep animating it... they don't give them the ability to act independently... which i assume the rock monsters would
SCOOB: Quasar's constructs still exist after he forgets about them... but they can't do anything without someone controlling them
DIGI: I have no problem with the rock monsters. If a few slow-ass, unintelligent golems are worrying people, I'd seriously re-think your strategies boys.
VAL: Are those scans the best example of the rock monsters? If so I don't really see the cause for complaint.
KHELL: Yes, and one of the rules was NO LOOPHOLES. I'm just pushing a suggestion that closes down one of those loopholes.
NJ: The problem is that the rock giants are nothing more than an attack they may be able to move on their own but its not like they have great intellects. They are not a loophole Digi stated himself that they were ok as soon as he said Loki's dragon clouds things weren't breaking the limits.
Basically if you do this then your singling out one power in particular and saying that banned powers can work on them. Those powers are banned for reasons and if you allow then to be used in any reason then it is unfair to the team employing them because your singleing out their attack. Thus rises the question of why can't we do it to all attacks against us or why can't we simply effect the environment with these banned powers to beat them as we aren't directly fighting them.
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😆
i will go ahead and give some immediate props to both khell and scoob. both of them seemed to have an inkling that something bad would come from the decision to allow independent constructs to be used. and i give nj and bw props on . . . sneakiness, because the irony of course is that bw and nj were never really arguing for SHAMAN! the constructs they were so slyly trying to sneak in were kyle's. let's look back at digi's comment:
DIGI: I have no problem with the rock monsters. If a few slow-ass, unintelligent golems are worrying people, I'd seriously re-think your strategies boys.
okay, so now we know that we're NOT talking about "a few slow-ass, unintelligent golems", rather we're talking about HIGHLY intelligent, speed-sharing, gl ring-wearing, superman strength having, DAXAMITES!!
based on that ALONE, and this:
KHELL: Yes, and one of the rules was NO LOOPHOLES. I'm just pushing a suggestion that closes down one of those loopholes.
yep -- NO LOOPHOLES!! i'd say having found a way to sneak in independent constructs based on the assumption that they were rock golems or unintelligent loki-made dragons, would fall under the "it's time to neuter this bullshite under the NO LOOPHOLES clause!!" i think it was pretty clear (and anyone can go back and read the thread for themselves) what was INTENDED to be allowed. can you imagine if one of shaman's powers was he could reach in his bag and pull out 5 power-ring wielding speed-sharing daxamites???? think THAT would have got through . . . come on . . .
if the fact that they SNUCK these things past the rules isn't enough, there is of course one OTHER little issue . . .
KYLE HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO BE ABLE TO CONSCIOUSLY CREATE CONSTRUCTS LIKE THAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the imaginary glc he created in the circle of fire mini was done UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY WITHOUT KYLE'S KNOWLEDGE, EFFORT, OR CONSENT!! and why were they created in the first place? to battle this little fellow -- whom kyle's ring ALSO brought into being WITHOUT kyle's knowledge, effort or consent:
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oblivion4qu3.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oblivion5so5.jpg
the oblivion entity CRUSHED the jla. now, if kyle can make his daxamites in the tournament, why wouldn't he just bring in this bad boy? because oblivion is above the powerlevel limit? not good enough. he should STILL be able to bring him out -- maybe at a lower level or something?? but i cannot imagine anyone would okay oblivion. the glc was made to help defeat that being. but how independent were they and how absolutely certain was kyle that he summoned from from different times and different dimensions?
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=death1ga3.jpg
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=death2oh8.jpg
kyle actually believed one of them was KILLED!!! he had NO CLUE he created (actually the ring did it on it's own . . . without kyle's asking it to) them at all. and even when he DID find out he had no conscious control over them and had to practically beg them to re-enter his mind. why? because they were killing him being outside him!! they weren't just constructs, they were FACETS OF HIS PERSONALITY.
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=subconscious1gv3.jpg
these were NOT your run-of-the-mill constructs. they were not made through anything kyle consciously did. could he recreate them in the tournament? sure, as any REGULAR construct. could he consciously recreate them so they are independent?? NO!!! not unless i see some proof. and NO that battle against that 'god' where kyle copied himself and made the god think it was him is ABSOLUTLEY NOT the same thing!! why? because if you look at his scan, it is clear at the end that the construct fully understood and knew it WAS just a construct. we also have no proof it acted independently because we don't see kyle until AFTER the fight. he was hidden and more than likely was controlling the construct. at the very least there is again ZERO proof that that copy acted independently in any way at all. so, no, that scan is NOT good enough evidence that kyle can create independent constructs.
now bw's favourite quote seems to be that batman quote saying the ring can do "anything." then . . . if that's true, why is it that gl's were even ALLOWED in the tournament?? as has been proven time and again, gl's are NOT invincible, so no, it cannot do 'anything'. one thing it can't do: consciously create independent constructs. those constructs in circle of fire fooled EVERYONE!! they were in almost everyway REAL people. kyle cannot do that consciously: at least bw and nj have shown no evidence to support that claim.
lastly, if you need yet ANOTHER reason to disallow them: those special constructs were reabsorbed into kyle (remember they were less constructs and more manifestations of his personality that kyle couldn't live without) and USED in kyle's mind to keep oblivion trapped!!
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trappednn0.jpg
so if he DID decide to try and consciously set them free again . . . OBLIVION would also be set free!!
if they say they are not making the "SAME" exact constructs, then i want to know which facets of kyle's personality he is going to imbue them with to 'make them real'??
to sum up: the constructs were not 'typical' constructs. they were made real without his consent, knowledge or effort. one went so far as to get killed and kyle STILL didn't know they came from his ring. bw and nj have never shown evidence kyle can create anything like them consciously (i already discarded the kyle copy against the god). without the personality facets (that what they were) kyle was dying. and on top of all that, they are being used to keep in oblivion. ANOTHER personality facet.
they tried to 'sneak' these constructs in by making it seem like we were allowing unintelligent golems or dragons, and they somehow got through the first round without even having to show evidence that kyle could even MAKE them!!! for both those reasons and everything listed above, i would like the judges to invoke the 'NO LOOPHOLES CLAUSE' and ban those ridiculous 'constructs'. [/B]
Originally posted by batdude123To tell you the truth all his good points aren't really that good.
I think he has good points. 😬 However, I'm still rootin' for you guys...
Meh... I'll differ to the other judges on this. I wasn't involved in the planning of the rules of this tournament. I based my judgement of the acceptability of tactic on the word of the other judges and participants. If constructs were agreed upon as acceptable prior to the tournaments initiation, the rules were stretched but not broken. The main thing that hurt Khell was his partner or lack thereof.
