Emma Vs Jean

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Emma isn’t taking Jean in any form. I’m not sure why this perception of Jean being weak without being Phoenix persists, or where it arose, but it’s not accurate. Perhaps it’s because her non-Phoenix feats aren’t quite as flashy, but they’re still good none the less. She’s gotten through Magneto’s helmet at least once, and Juggernaut’s at least twice (the first time being before the end of the first run of the X-Men). She’s dragged beings immune to TP to the astral plane, as well as extra-dimensional entities like D’Spayre, searched the world with her TP for Xavier without Cerebra, separating Scott and Apocalypse…this is some of what I can think of off the top of my head. And it’s all non-Phoenix in anything other than name.

Emma’s skilled, no doubt, but Jean is no Rachel. She’s got more power than Emma, and the skill to back it up. And while we’re mentioning Nova, Jean and Emma, let us not forget the Emma couldn’t make it to Charles’ psyche while Jean did. Let’s also not forget that Jean also stored and splintered Xavier’s mind in the same arc.

If it were just about any other MU telepath, I’d be willing to give Emma a virtually unconditional win. When written well she can be downright frightening. Against Jean or Xavier, she’s going down.

Yes but to be fair, during the Nova arc, Jean was manifesting Phoenix, so it wasnt really a feat on behalf of "normal Jean".

**FI**

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Emma isn’t taking Jean in any form. I’m not sure why this perception of Jean being weak without being Phoenix persists, or where it arose, but it’s not accurate. Perhaps it’s because her non-Phoenix feats aren’t quite as flashy, but they’re still good none the less. She’s gotten through Magneto’s helmet at least once, and Juggernaut’s at least twice (the first time being before the end of the first run of the X-Men). She’s dragged beings immune to TP to the astral plane, as well as extra-dimensional entities like D’Spayre, searched the world with her TP for Xavier without Cerebra, separating Scott and Apocalypse…this is some of what I can think of off the top of my head. And it’s all non-Phoenix in anything other than name.

Emma’s skilled, no doubt, but Jean is no Rachel. She’s got more power than Emma, and the skill to back it up. And while we’re mentioning Nova, Jean and Emma, let us not forget the Emma couldn’t make it to Charles’ psyche while Jean did. Let’s also not forget that Jean also stored and splintered Xavier’s mind in the same arc.

If it were just about any other MU telepath, I’d be willing to give Emma a virtually unconditional win. When written well she can be downright frightening. Against Jean or Xavier, she’s going down.

Nicely put but I think you're missing the point...she was already manifesting the PF in the New X-Men arc....Pre-retcon Jean was extremely vunerable to Emma's Psychic Backlash(See the scan on the other page)....
I believe the Phoenix was involved in that Apocalypse Twelve arc as well...

As for Xaviers Psyche... 1.) Jean was manifesting the PF which helps and 2.) As for Emma having a hard time manouvering in Xaviers mind...it could have been the alcohol...she seemed as if she was playing around...and it was booby trapped....I mean sticking her hand in the doors mouth seems quite stupid IMO....especially when you're in the mind of a powerful psychic...had she done what Jean did and not touched anything she would have been fine...

Emma even though sneaky would go down against X...but she'd put up a fight...

Against Pre-retcon Jean...I'd say she'd take the majority 7 or 8/10 for Emma

Against New X-Men Jean....I'd say Jean takes 9.5/10....the 0.5 being a sneaky win by Emma...seeing how she's managed to escape the Phoenix before in UXM with her skill and a Psionic Bolt that effected the Physical Relam...

Damn....15 minutes are up...I should also add that the 0.5 is also for managing to hide her devious intentions from an angered Phoenix who just found out about her husband having a psychic affair, a Xavier and a Rogue who recently absorbed some of Emma's life force...

Originally posted by willRules
Personally I don't think that Jean was Xavier's telepathic equal without the Phoenix force. I always thought Xavier was the most powerful telepath, until the Phoenix came along..............

Xavier has more skill than anyone, but any Omega is more powerful than him.

And Emma's hotter, funnier, a better character, the best woman for Cyke, etc, but Jean beats her easily.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Nicely put but I think you're missing the point...she was already manifesting the PF in the New X-Men arc....Pre-retcon Jean was extremely vunerable to Emma's Psychic Backlash(See the scan on the other page)....
I believe the Phoenix was involved in that Apocalypse Twelve arc as well...

As for Xaviers Psyche... 1.) Jean was manifesting the PF which helps and 2.) As for Emma having a hard time manouvering in Xaviers mind...it could have been the alcohol...she seemed as if she was playing around...and it was booby trapped....I mean sticking her hand in the doors mouth seems quite stupid IMO....especially when you're in the mind of a powerful psychic...had she done what Jean did and not touched anything she would have been fine...

Emma even though sneaky would go down against X...but she'd put up a fight...

Against Pre-retcon Jean...I'd say she'd take the majority 7 or 8/10 for Emma

Against New X-Men Jean....I'd say Jean takes 9.5/10....the 0.5 being a sneaky win by Emma...seeing how she's managed to escape the Phoenix before in UXM with her skill and a Psionic Bolt that effected the Physical Relam...

I actually thought that reason why Emma didnt help Jean was because Nova was controlling her, as it was revealed in Astonishing that Emma is now in the Club and Nova created Emmas 2ndary mutation.

Or was that arc not thought about then?

**FI**

Jean Grey could never satisfy her husband like Emma did. For heaven's sake, I think Scott has had more sex with Emma in the past year than he has with Jean during their entire marriage.

Lol you need to read Astonishing x-men 14.

Originally posted by FireIncarnate
I actually thought that reason why Emma didnt help Jean was because Nova was controlling her, as it was revealed in Astonishing that Emma is now in the Club and Nova created Emmas 2ndary mutation.

Or was that arc not thought about then?

**FI**

I've never thought about it like that...AXM is newer...so it could be a possibility...I mean even though Emma is insane she still told Nova that she returned the favour when Nova said I saved you....so it's a strong possibility...

Jean was manifesting the raptor regularly several years before Morrison took over. She'd done so as far back as her X-Factor days. Just because the raptor's there doesn't mean that she's in Phoenix mode. The same could easily be said for Rachel nowadays.

Jean and Rachel both are known to be psis that are particularly sensitive. Just because she was sensitive to the pain of a third party in no way affects how Jean would fare in a one on one battle with Emma. She's dealt with worse.

Just because Jean didn't know about the affair doesn't add up to any feat for Emma. It's simply that she didn't try to read Scott or Emma's mind. While that may be common place for Emma, it never was for Jean. And she more than proved that if she wanted in, there wasn't anything Emma could do to stop her.

I really can't think of anything that Emma can dish that Jean can't take. The same can't be said for Emma. She's not as battle savvy or as experienced as Jean. And Emma may be a beast at taking down people that have little or no psi protection. How is she going to fare against Xavier's protege (the one that, in turn, trained Cable)? The same issue that shows Jean feeling the feedback from Emma's attack (Uncanny 281, I believe) also shows her stopping the fight between the X-Men and THC with her TP. Even Emma was rubbing her head.

Jean's better trained, more experienced, has the best TP sparring partner on the planet...I don't see what Emma is going to bring to the table that would turn a fight in her favor.

Originally posted by eternitygoddess
💃 💃 💃

Even if Jean doesn't have Phoenix force, she's still an Omega-Level mutant and equal to Xavier in terms of telepathy. Emma is 'bush-league' telepath.

As for Rachel vs. Cuckoos, same logic. Rachel has had a heck of lot experience in addition to her raw power levels.

Agreed. Phoenix force aside, Jean still kicks Emma's ass each and everytime. And in a physical confrontation as well.

Rachel against the Cuckoos? I dunno about that one honestly. I'm inclined to say Rachel because of her sheer power and all the experience she's had with it.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
[B]Jean was manifesting the raptor regularly several years before Morrison took over. She'd done so as far back as her X-Factor days. Just because the raptor's there doesn't mean that she's in Phoenix mode. The same could easily be said for Rachel nowadays.

That's why I've been using Pre-retcon Jean...the thread says no Phoenix and the only Jean that never had the Phoenix was Pre-retcon Jean...so any feats involving the fire bird are out...

BTW In your opinion does Rachel still have a fraction of the Phoenix Force?

Jean and Rachel both are known to be psis that are particularly sensitive. Just because she was sensitive to the pain of a third party in no way affects how Jean would fare in a one on one battle with Emma. She's dealt with worse.

When has it been stated that they're sensitive? The indirect Psionic Backlash of Emma is what hurt Jean so much that she relayed it along her mind link...hurting the people she was mind linked with...

Just because Jean didn't know about the affair doesn't add up to any feat for Emma. It's simply that she didn't try to read Scott or Emma's mind. While that may be common place for Emma, it never was for Jean. And she more than proved that if she wanted in, there wasn't anything Emma could do to stop her.

I wasn't talking about the affair...but that's another feat...she kept it from Xavier...and Jean...
I was talking about her apparent betrayl in Astonishing X-Men...she was working with Nova all along...and Phoenix didn't notice this...also remember the whole Onslaught thing...he popped up everywhere and anywhere...Emma managed to hide herself and her students from him....

Also remember the first time she and Phoenix faced off..Emma's skill saved her...while Phoenix overpowered her....

I really can't think of anything that Emma can dish that Jean can't take. The same can't be said for Emma. She's not as battle savvy or as experienced as Jean.

Experienced? Emma is as experienced as Current Jean if not more so..

And Emma may be a beast at taking down people that have little or no psi protection. How is she going to fare against Xavier's protege (the one that, in turn, trained Cable)?

The one who took Psylockes telepathy to increase her own..and trained in the future an extra 12 years?
Pre-retcon Jean remember...

The same issue that shows Jean feeling the feedback from Emma's attack (Uncanny 281, I believe) also shows her stopping the fight between the X-Men and THC with her TP. Even Emma was rubbing her head.

Jeans direct attack vs Emma's indirect attack....

Which is more impressive?

Jean's better trained, more experienced, has the best TP sparring partner on the planet...I don't see what Emma is going to bring to the table that would turn a fight in her favor.

Better trained and more experienced? I think not...even for current Jean...

More power yes for Current Jean....

As for Pre-retcon Jean...I'm not sure...as the Phoenix was an entity then...

That's why I say Emma can beat down Pre-retcon Jean..a solid 8/10

That's why I've been using Pre-retcon Jean...the thread says no Phoenix and the only Jean that never had the Phoenix was Pre-retcon Jean...so any feats involving the fire bird are out...

The firebird doesn't necessarily correspond to drawing on the power of Phoenix. It's Jean's psi signature, just like the butterfly was Betsy's. Jean has never been "Phoenix" without having both TP and TK. She's had both and not been "Phoenix," but she's never been "Phoenix" without both. And you can't say that the only Jean w/o the Phoenix was pre-retcon Jean (what do you mean by that anyway? which retcon?), since it's established that it is genetically hers to wield. Regardless of when or how she's used the PF in the past, the ability to use it is in her DNA, so there's no way to completely separate the two. The Phoenix was shown to interact with Jean when she was first on the team anyway, when the X-Men and FF were in space.

When has it been stated that they're sensitive? The indirect Psionic Backlash of Emma is what hurt Jean so much that she relayed it along her mind link...hurting the people she was mind linked with...

I don't have my comics with me, and I can't remember a specific issue number, so I'll withdraw that reference. However, my contention still stands. Jean's dealt with psionic backlash before and moved past it. She's ended psi links because others would feel the backlash as well. It comes with the territory. That said, it still has nothing to do with a one on one fight. Is Emma going to find the nearest person and start telepathically torturing them to weaken Jean? It doesn't really have any relevance to this fight.

I wasn't talking about the affair...but that's another feat...she kept it from Xavier...and Jean...
I was talking about her apparent betrayl in Astonishing X-Men...she was working with Nova all along...and Phoenix didn't notice this...also remember the whole Onslaught thing...he popped up everywhere and anywhere...Emma managed to hide herself and her students from him....

Also remember the first time she and Phoenix faced off..Emma's skill saved her...while Phoenix overpowered her....

Keeping a secret from a TP isn't a feat unless they are looking for it. She was in the best place to keep secrets, because Jean and Charles don't pry like Emma does. Same thing goes with her working with THC. They aren't going to discover what they aren't looking for. As far as Onslaught's concerned...she may have been successful hiding her students. Or it could have been that Onslaught wasn't concerned with them because they couldn't provide him what he needed.

Emma's skill saved her? Are you sure? Even then, Phoenix didn't kill, so I'm not sure how Emma's skill saved her, especially since she herself says that after that confrontation Jean left her incontinent and drooling...

Experienced? Emma is as experienced as Current Jean if not more so..

The one who took Psylockes telepathy to increase her own..and trained in the future an extra 12 years?

The power swap between Jean and Bets hasn't ever really been explained, so I don't think it has any bearing on this discussion. Emma as experienced as Jean? Using TP in general, maybe. In combat, not hardly. Emma's mostly used her skills on people who were not psis, and not nearly as often in combat as Jean has, for the simple fact that she wasn't a combatant. That's indisputable. Astonishing is really Emma's first time on a true combat team. Jean's been on one since she was 15. And Emma certainly doesn't have the battle feats that Jean does.

Jeans direct attack vs Emma's indirect attack....

Which is more impressive?

In that particular issue, you mean? Emma mindraping a defenseless child and Jean feeling psionic feedback vs Jean getting inside the head of every combatant and making them stop, including those with natural psi defenses (like Storm) and a first class psi (like Emma)? It wasn't an indirect attack anyway...

Please define what you mean by pre-retcon...I'm not sure I'm following you. And I still don't see what Emma can bring to the table that Jean can't handle. She's been confronted with the deaths of the 5 billion D'Bari on more than one occasion, and she's gotten past it to kick her opponents but, so some backlash isn't going to do much. And she knows Emma's mind much more than Emma knows hers. Besides, anyone that tried getting in to Jean's consciousness to deep inevitably confronts the Phoenix, and that's where the fight ends.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
[B]The firebird doesn't necessarily correspond to drawing on the power of Phoenix. It's Jean's psi signature, just like the butterfly was Betsy's. Jean has never been "Phoenix" without having both TP and TK. She's had both and not been "Phoenix," but she's never been "Phoenix" without both. And you can't say that the only Jean w/o the Phoenix was pre-retcon Jean (what do you mean by that anyway? which retcon?), since it's established that it is genetically hers to wield. Regardless of when or how she's used the PF in the past, the ability to use it is in her DNA, so there's no way to completely separate the two. The Phoenix was shown to interact with Jean when she was first on the team anyway, when the X-Men and FF were in space.

I understand that...however you're still using Post Retcon Jean...The Phoenix was once called an entity it was once considered a seperate being....however now it's been established that Jean is the Phoenix...hence the retcon...

What I'm saying is that the Jean before the retcon occured without the entity Phoenix is Pre-retcon Jean.

Understand that when people use the term Pre-retcon Jean they mean the Jean when the Phoenix was once considered an entity...

I don't have my comics with me, and I can't remember a specific issue number, so I'll withdraw that reference. However, my contention still stands. Jean's dealt with psionic backlash before and moved past it. She's ended psi links because others would feel the backlash as well. It comes with the territory. That said, it still has nothing to do with a one on one fight. Is Emma going to find the nearest person and start telepathically torturing them to weaken Jean? It doesn't really have any relevance to this fight.

You mean Exodus' psychic backlash which indirectly took her out...and she didn't end the Psi-link 😕 she relayed her pain onto the others...
What it proves is that if Emma's psionic backlash can indirectly injure that particular Jean...then imagine what a fully fledged attack can do?

Keeping a secret from a TP isn't a feat unless they are looking for it. She was in the best place to keep secrets, because Jean and Charles don't pry like Emma does. Same thing goes with her working with THC. They aren't going to discover what they aren't looking for. As far as Onslaught's concerned...she may have been successful hiding her students. Or it could have been that Onslaught wasn't concerned with them because they couldn't provide him what he needed.

The Phoenix was pissed off when she broke through Emma's psi-defenses...she tore through Emma's mind....you're telling me hiding her true intentions is not a feat? I think not...Jean was looking for everything and anything....remember she wanted to know about Scott and Emma sleeping together?

Onslaught went after nearly everyone in the MU...he even came to Canada to take out the Alpha Flight...you're telling me he wouldn't want to use her or her students? She hide them successfully...and anticipated his birth...

This next bit is open up to speculation, however...I think it's safe to say that Emma is involved....Onslaught even acknowledges that the X-Men have 4 world class telepaths when he talks to Dark Beast..he doesn't specify who he's talking about though...however he acknowledges her existence then why wouldn't he have gone looking for them...he was looking for pawns remember...

Emma's skill saved her? Are you sure? Even then, Phoenix didn't kill, so I'm not sure how Emma's skill saved her, especially since she herself says that after that confrontation Jean left her incontinent and drooling...

Umm....Phoenix was trying to turn her into a vegetable...had Emma not effected the Physical realm with her mental bolt..she would have been far worse...had it not been for her quick thinking and skill...god only knows what would have happened..

The power swap between Jean and Bets hasn't ever really been explained, so I don't think it has any bearing on this discussion. Emma as experienced as Jean? Using TP in general, maybe. In combat, not hardly. Emma's mostly used her skills on people who were not psis, and not nearly as often in combat as Jean has, for the simple fact that she wasn't a combatant. That's indisputable. Astonishing is really Emma's first time on a true combat team. Jean's been on one since she was 15. And Emma certainly doesn't have the battle feats that Jean does.

Umm...Emma took out Astrid Bloom like a play thing when she was still new to her powers...Emma learnt about the Astral Plane very early in her life...Jean got her telepathy later even though she's a few years older then Emma....Emma honed her skills to be a monster...when she was with the Hellfire Club and formedher Hellions she's used her telepathy to constantly hide her team and herself from Xavier with Cerebro and Magneto...she's fought the New Warriors with her Hellions...she's had the Hellfires resources to hone her skills as a telepath...
She's had enough more then enough experience with telepathy in combat situations...

In that particular issue, you mean? Emma mindraping a defenseless child and Jean feeling psionic feedback vs Jean getting inside the head of every combatant and making them stop, including those with natural psi defenses (like Storm) and a first class psi (like Emma)? It wasn't an indirect attack anyway...

Umm...it was an indirect attack...by Emma's psionic backlash...the backlash is what caused the pain to Jean..Jeans attack was a direct assault...

Please define what you mean by pre-retcon...I'm not sure I'm following you. And I still don't see what Emma can bring to the table that Jean can't handle. She's been confronted with the deaths of the 5 billion D'Bari on more than one occasion, and she's gotten past it to kick her opponents but, so some backlash isn't going to do much. And she knows Emma's mind much more than Emma knows hers. Besides, anyone that tried getting in to Jean's consciousness to deep inevitably confronts the Phoenix, and that's where the fight ends.

Pre-retcon Jean = Jean when the Phoenix Force was considered an entity...and when Jean wasn't acting as a host for it..

The deaths of 5 billion strangers that's what you think will cause Jean the most pain? How about Emma sleeping with her husband..Emma being able to satisfy Scott...Scotts love....or Jean being a failure as a parent?

How does Jean know her mind more then she does Jean...? Emma knows all the X-Men inside out possibly not Xavier since he has so many skeletons in his closet....? However in AXM #14 she does say that Xavier thinks telepaths are better then everyone else...so she does kind of know his.

BTW The fact that Emma managed to hide stuff from the pissed off Phoenix says it all...

Again you used the Phoenix...the thread says no Phoenix meaning...Pre-retcon Jean...

The power swap between Jean and Bets hasn't ever really been explained, so I don't think it has any bearing on this discussion. Emma as experienced as Jean? Using TP in general, maybe. In combat, not hardly. Emma's mostly used her skills on people who were not psis, and not nearly as often in combat as Jean has, for the simple fact that she wasn't a combatant. That's indisputable. Astonishing is really Emma's first time on a true combat team. Jean's been on one since she was 15. And Emma certainly doesn't have the battle feats that Jean does.

Sorry for the double post but 15 minutes are up..

IIRC they state that Betsy's boosted Jeans telepathy..not that it wasn't powerful then..but she became more powerful..

She also managed to gain 12 years of telepathic experience on Xavier and Emma in the future when she trained with Cable...

But isn't that all post-retcon...

BTW As I said before the hellfire resources have helped her hone her abilities in combat situations that's the reason why she took out Storm, Wolverine and Colossus so easily...even after they had psi shielding training from Phoenix and Xavier..

You're also basically saying that Jean has more experience in combat telepathy then Cassie Nova, Exodus..etc...

I understand that...however you're still using Post Retcon Jean...The Phoenix was once called an entity it was once considered a seperate being....however now it's been established that Jean is the Phoenix...hence the retcon...

What I'm saying is that the Jean before the retcon occured without the entity Phoenix is Pre-retcon Jean.

Understand that when people use the term Pre-retcon Jean they mean the Jean when the Phoenix was once considered an entity...

I understand the concept of the second retcon, which re-establishes the original intent of Phoenix, that it was Jean's power all along. But if you want to go with it being a separate entity, then Jean wasn't in contact with Phoenix again until Morrison's arc, so everything else is fair game.

You mean Exodus' psychic backlash which indirectly took her out...and she didn't end the Psi-link she relayed her pain onto the others...
What it proves is that if Emma's psionic backlash can indirectly injure that particular Jean...then imagine what a fully fledged attack can do?

I haven't seen the issue you're referring to with Exodus, so I can't comment on that. She has severed psi links before to prevent people from feeling the back lash, and has shielded people from psionic back lash before. A direct attack by Emma isn't going to have much affect on a Jean that's prepared. And if we're gonna talk low points, we have to recall Emma being taken out by a brick thrown by a human...and not able to use her telepathy.

The Phoenix was pissed off when she broke through Emma's psi-defenses...she tore through Emma's mind....you're telling me hiding her true intentions is not a feat? I think not...Jean was looking for everything and anything....remember she wanted to know about Scott and Emma sleeping together?

Onslaught went after nearly everyone in the MU...he even came to Canada to take out the Alpha Flight...you're telling me he wouldn't want to use her or her students? She hide them successfully...and anticipated his birth...

This next bit is open up to speculation, however...I think it's safe to say that Emma is involved....Onslaught even acknowledges that the X-Men have 4 world class telepaths when he talks to Dark Beast..he doesn't specify who he's talking about though...however he acknowledges her existence then why wouldn't he have gone looking for them...he was looking for pawns remember...

No, it's not a feat, because nothing happened. How is she going to find what's not there? Onslaught also used Chamber's power to gain an existence of his own, didn't he? So he obviously found at least one of her students...

Umm....Phoenix was trying to turn her into a vegetable...had Emma not effected the Physical realm with her mental bolt..she would have been far worse...had it not been for her quick thinking and skill...god only knows what would have happened..

One can't really say what Phoenix was doing other than taking down her opponents. She did turn Emma into a vegetable temporarily. You're forgetting that the X-Men (for the most part) don't kill. Phoenix was no exception. At that point, she hadn't crossed over completely from Black Queen to Dark Phoenix, so terminal violence wasn't yet in her cadre. Regardless of Emma's skill or quick thinking, she was out of her league and still taken down, period.

Umm...Emma took out Astrid Bloom like a play thing when she was still new to her powers...Emma learnt about the Astral Plane very early in her life...Jean got her telepathy later even though she's a few years older then Emma....Emma honed her skills to be a monster...when she was with the Hellfire Club and formedher Hellions she's used her telepathy to constantly hide her team and herself from Xavier with Cerebro and Magneto...she's fought the New Warriors with her Hellions...she's had the Hellfires resources to hone her skills as a telepath...
She's had enough more then enough experience with telepathy in combat situations...

Umm...it was an indirect attack...by Emma's psionic backlash...the backlash is what caused the pain to Jean..Jeans attack was a direct assault...

It wasn't an indirect attack--it was fallout from the attack. Besides, why would she want to attack the people that she'd invited there? Doesn't make make much sense to me...

Pre-retcon Jean = Jean when the Phoenix Force was considered an entity...and when Jean wasn't acting as a host for it..

The deaths of 5 billion strangers that's what you think will cause Jean the most pain? How about Emma sleeping with her husband..Emma being able to satisfy Scott...Scotts love....or Jean being a failure as a parent?

How does Jean know her mind more then she does Jean...? Emma knows all the X-Men inside out possibly not Xavier since he has so many skeletons in his closet....? However in AXM #14 she does say that Xavier thinks telepaths are better then everyone else...so she does kind of know his.

BTW The fact that Emma managed to hide stuff from the pissed off Phoenix says it all...

Again you used the Phoenix...the thread says no Phoenix meaning...Pre-retcon Jean...

Yeah, the death of 5 billion strangers would affect her, considering that she was responsible for their deaths, a lot more than what was happening between Emma and Scott. Note her response was one of anger, not one of hurt. Unfortunately Morrison didn't really show Jean being capable of that emotion later in his run.

Jean knows her better because she's been in her mind on more than one occasion. There hasn't been one instance of Emma being in Jean's mind (not that I know of anyway). Sure, she knows how the X-Men work, just as they know how THC works. That doesn't mean that she knows Jean like Jean knows her. If she did, she probably wouldn't have played around with Scott. You keep saying that she hid something, but there was nothing to hide, unless you have proof that Scott and Emma slept together before Jean died...

And I would say that Jean certainly has more experience in combat TP than Nova--she essentially sucker punched the X-Men. Nova wasn't around that long, as and far as we know, that was her first confrontation of any kind. Exodus, I'm not sure. Supposedly he's been around a while, so I can't really say what his experiences were before he joined Magneto's camp. That's neither here nor there.

You keep talking about pre-retcon Jean, and those are the examples I used (except for confrontations between Jean and Emma). Jean was never Phoenix in anything more than name until Morrison came along and re-established Claremont's original take. No one, not even Xavier, has been able to go beyond a certain point in Jean's mind. Even when she had no TP, no psychic defenses whatsoever, people could only go so far. She's faced far worse than Emma. If Jean wants to get past a shield, she'll get past. She's proven that time and time again. She's used her TP to communicate with everything from dogs to demons, dived in the mind of a dying man, prevented hundreds of people from panicking...I mean, we can go back and forth on feats all day long. I still don't see anything that is unique to Emma that would allow her to take Jean down.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I understand the concept of the second retcon, which re-establishes the original intent of Phoenix, that it was Jean's power all along. But if you want to go with it being a separate entity, then Jean wasn't in contact with Phoenix again until Morrison's arc, so everything else is fair game.

I believe after/during the Onslaught saga she started manifesting the Phoenix signature...so anything after that wouldn't count...

I haven't seen the issue you're referring to with Exodus, so I can't comment on that. She has severed psi links before to prevent people from feeling the back lash, and has shielded people from psionic back lash before. A direct attack by Emma isn't going to have much affect on a Jean that's prepared. And if we're gonna talk low points, we have to recall Emma being taken out by a brick thrown by a human...and not able to use her telepathy.

One of the scans are on the previous page...if you want I'll scan more..it was during hte destruction of Avalon...

Being hit by a brick is physical..nothing to do with Astral Battles...

No, it's not a feat, because nothing happened. How is she going to find what's not there? Onslaught also used Chamber's power to gain an existence of his own, didn't he? So he obviously found at least one of her students...

Huh? She was working with Nova the whole time...of course it's a feat....

All Emma's students that were with her...were safe...Banshee aswell.

One can't really say what Phoenix was doing other than taking down her opponents. She did turn Emma into a vegetable temporarily. You're forgetting that the X-Men (for the most part) don't kill. Phoenix was no exception. At that point, she hadn't crossed over completely from Black Queen to Dark Phoenix, so terminal violence wasn't yet in her cadre. Regardless of Emma's skill or quick thinking, she was out of her league and still taken down, period.

Out of her league in terms of the Phoenix not in terms of Pre-Retcon Jean...

BTW She escaped via her skill from a cosmic being...you've got to give her perks for that..

Point taken. Although I wouldn't consider her fights against adolescents to be particularly high points for her. What do the resources of the Hellfire Club have to do with her and her skill?

If you look at the facilities that the HC supply i.e. The training centre under Emma's academy then it's most probable that she homed her telepathy using it...

Exodus and Nova haven't been shown fightin many telepaths but yet they are certainly no less experienced then Jean..

It wasn't an indirect attack--it was fallout from the attack. Besides, why would she want to attack the people that she'd invited there? Doesn't make make much sense to me...

The indirect psionic energy from the attack is what mentally crippled Jean...
Jean wanted them to stop...so she assaulted them mentally..

Yeah, the death of 5 billion strangers would affect her, considering that she was responsible for their deaths, a lot more than what was happening between Emma and Scott. Note her response was one of anger, not one of hurt. Unfortunately Morrison didn't really show Jean being capable of that emotion later in his run.

I didn't say it wouldn't I just think her being a failed parent and a crap wife...you know is worse...

Jean knows her better because she's been in her mind on more than one occasion. There hasn't been one instance of Emma being in Jean's mind (not that I know of anyway). Sure, she knows how the X-Men work, just as they know how THC works. That doesn't mean that she knows Jean like Jean knows her. If she did, she probably wouldn't have played around with Scott. You keep saying that she hid something, but there was nothing to hide, unless you have proof that Scott and Emma slept together before Jean died...

She managed to hide who she's actually working with...Cassandra Nova...
Emma constantly reads peoples thoughts...in New X-Men she was describing Scotts and Jeans marriage problems to Wolverine..
Why wouldn't she...she played around with Scott because intially that's how she was going to get back at Jean...then Emma fell in love...

And I would say that Jean certainly has more experience in combat TP than Nova--she essentially sucker punched the X-Men. Nova wasn't around that long, as and far as we know, that was her first confrontation of any kind. Exodus, I'm not sure. Supposedly he's been around a while, so I can't really say what his experiences were before he joined Magneto's camp. That's neither here nor there.

The point being the same logic can be applied to Emma...

You keep talking about pre-retcon Jean, and those are the examples I used (except for confrontations between Jean and Emma). Jean was never Phoenix in anything more than name until Morrison came along and re-established Claremont's original take. No one, not even Xavier, has been able to go beyond a certain point in Jean's mind. Even when she had no TP, no psychic defenses whatsoever, people could only go so far. She's faced far worse than Emma. If Jean wants to get past a shield, she'll get past. She's proven that time and time again. She's used her TP to communicate with everything from dogs to demons, dived in the mind of a dying man, prevented hundreds of people from panicking...I mean, we can go back and forth on feats all day long. I still don't see anything that is unique to Emma that would allow her to take Jean down.

Pre-retcon Jean is limited in top tier feats...as I said Anything after/during the Onslaught Saga is out....and anything with the PF is out...

Plus there's the feat where Emma's Psionic backlash is serverly hurting her...

Jean easily wins, so does Rachel.

Originally posted by The Pict
Jean easily wins, so does Rachel.

As for Rachel?

I don't know...5 Cuckoos who actually have skills vs a Powerful TP weilder with little skill

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
As for Rachel?

I don't know...5 Cuckoos who actually have skills vs a Powerful TP weilder with little skill

There are only 3 now right? Or does he mean all 5 anyway?

Originally posted by The Pict
There are only 3 now right? Or does he mean all 5 anyway?

Don't know but yeah they're only three but they have part of the Phoenix Force with them..I'm assuming we're using all 5 Cuckoo's without their fragment.

BTW CF When did this brick incident occur? GenX I can't find it...Oh and I forgot to add this but I disagree that Jean has more combat experience then Nova or Exodus...

Nova sucker punched Xavier...Jean on the other hand knew that she was coming...the second time...however the first time wasn't an ambush either...Jean knew what Nova was up to...then too..

So as far as experience goes...you can't say Jean is more experience then them because the others don't have their own mainstream comic...that would also mean that Psylocke has more telepathic combat experience then Nova

Even if Jean doesn't have Phoenix force, she's still an Omega-Level mutant and equal to Xavier in terms of telepathy

**** outta here with that weak ass shit