Emma Vs Jean

I believe after/during the Onslaught saga she started manifesting the Phoenix signature...so anything after that wouldn't count...

Being hit by a brick is physical..nothing to do with Astral Battles...

Huh? She was working with Nova the whole time...of course it's a feat...

All Emma's students that were with her...were safe...Banshee aswell.

BTW She escaped via her skill from a cosmic being...you've got to give her perks for that..

If you look at the facilities that the HC supply i.e. The training centre under Emma's academy then it's most probable that she homed her telepathy using it...

Exodus and Nova haven't been shown fightin many telepaths but yet they are certainly no less experienced then Jean..

The indirect psionic energy from the attack is what mentally crippled Jean...
Jean wanted them to stop...so she assaulted them mentally..

I didn't say it wouldn't I just think her being a failed parent and a crap wife...you know is worse...

She managed to hide who she's actually working with...Cassandra Nova...
Emma constantly reads peoples thoughts...in New X-Men she was describing Scotts and Jeans marriage problems to Wolverine..
Why wouldn't she...she played around with Scott because intially that's how she was going to get back at Jean...then Emma fell in love...

Why would she want to get back at Jean? For removing all of the rubble in Genosha and saving her life? It doesn't really matter why she did it anyway. She still wasn't being smart, but again, a discussion for another time.

The point being the same logic can be applied to Emma...

Pre-retcon Jean is limited in top tier feats...as I said Anything after/during the Onslaught Saga is out....and anything with the PF is out...

Plus there's the feat where Emma's Psionic backlash is serverly hurting her...

As for Rachel?

I don't know...5 Cuckoos who actually have skills vs a Powerful TP weilder with little skill

BTW CF When did this brick incident occur? GenX I can't find it...Oh and I forgot to add this but I disagree that Jean has more combat experience then Nova or Exodus...

Nova sucker punched Xavier...Jean on the other hand knew that she was coming...the second time...however the first time wasn't an ambush either...Jean knew what Nova was up to...then too..

So as far as experience goes...you can't say Jean is more experience then them because the others don't have their own mainstream comic...that would also mean that Psylocke has more telepathic combat experience then Nova

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
[B]Says you. The raptor has been her psi-signature for years, when there wasn't even the remotest connection to the Phoenix, just as Betsy's was the butterfly. Just because she manifests the raptor doesn't mean she's using the PF at all. Most of the time (but not always) if the Phoenix is involved, the signature is one of flame, not pink or purple or blue. By the same token, there are many times when Jean manifests the Phoenix but there is no raptor. Just because a raptor is there doesn't mean much.

The raptor without the Phoenix entity is what paved the way for Jean/Phoenix being one entity...and as of current continuity every single manifestation of the Phoenix Raptor is because Jean Grey is the Phoenix...Pre-Retcon Jean is Jean without the Phoenix...IIRC I believe she manifests the Phoenix Effect on the astral plane when Onslaught moves her there...and then later on in UXM she does it again....

No Phoenix means no Phoenix Potential(Omega Potential), All Phoenix Feats are erased and everything up to the Phoenix being manifested is negated....which means everything after a point in the Onslaught Saga.

If you can name a situation where she manifested the fire effect before the Onslaught saga then we can erase all her feats from that point onwards...

It shows that anyone can be caught off guard. There's absolutely no reason that Emma should have been hurt by that brick. She should have known it was coming, but she didn't and her TP suffered.

Emma doesn't constantly probe peoples..there's no point to it...Xavier has been hit on the head with a baseball bat...this point has nothing to do with a KMC telepathic battle.

Dude, you're really reaching for that one. First of all, how could she have hidden the nature of a relationship that didn't exist until years later? Second, it wouldn't be surprising if none of the other TPs knew, because as I said before, Emma's the only one in the mansion with no compunction about violating the minds of others. Charles and Jean have always taken a higher road when it comes to stuff like that. Perhaps most importantly, there isn't really any solid proof that Jean didn't know. It's an assumption.

During Emma and Nova's conversation Nova mentions that she saved Emma's life..and Emma says she returned the favour...Emma was clearly aware of what was going on...and and angry Phoenix did break into Emma's mind...looking for answers...

Check again. Chamber and Skin weren't on that plane. Neither was Leech and some others as well. Onslaught wanted to find out the extent of Chamber's abilities, and he did. Chamber also surmised that what was happening astrally was due to Onslaught, while Emma ran and tried to hide the rest of her students.

Read what I said all of Emma's students that were with her were safe...anyone who wasn't on that plane wasn't...don't see what you're trying to get at.

Once again you're reaching. I suppose Mastermind escaped due to his skill too, huh? If Jean wanted Emma dead or whatever, she would have been. I'm still not sure how Emma saved herself from someone that wasn't trying to kill her...It certainly wasn't enough to protect her from the beatdown she got

Endsong was certainly no fluke when she protected Cyclops..nor was this...the fact that Emma can think in the heat of battle shows how she can turn the tables with a simple weaker mind blast...it was enough to fool the Phoenix...

Don't TPs usually train with other TPs, not machinery?

Another unsupported assumption. How many years was Xavier a telepath before he met another telepath, the Shadow King? That was his first astral battle against an opponent that had been around for centuries. Just because Nova and Exodus are beasts doesn't mean that they have tons of experience fighting other TPs. It just means that they are powerful. Since Exodus has been around for centuries (apparently), I can buy him having lots of experience. Nova, not so much. She may have shared Chuck's power and some of his skill, but certainly not his experience. And that's not to say that one can not become an accomplished TP without engaging other TPs. It just becomes a different experience combating another TP than it is manipulating the mind of a regular person.

If that's the case then Telepathic Combat Experience has no bearing on an Astral Battle...as shown in Comics...Nova, Emma and Exodus are prime examples...same with the Shadow King...

Remember she tells Emma that none of the X-Men are to be underestimated. She obviously wasn't crippled. It may have been unpleasant, sure, but she was far from helpless.

That's after Emma stopped with the Psionic backlash...

Again, an assumption basing a characters actions on something that hasn't been written yet. We have no idea of how Whedon's going to resolve all of this anyway.

See Nova and Emma's discussion Emma was well aware of what she did...

Why would she want to get back at Jean? For removing all of the rubble in Genosha and saving her life? It doesn't really matter why she did it anyway. She still wasn't being smart, but again, a discussion for another time.

Saving her life in Genosha? I think not...cleaning up the rubble...err yeah sure...maybe for the time when the Phoenix almost turned her into a vegetable...

What do you mean? I'm not following you...

I was talking about Shadow King and Novas off panel experience...however if that's the case then as shown in comics combat experience means nothing...since Nova can waltz in and dish out a whipping.

Once again, this is according to your guidelines, not the ones established by Marvel or the thread starter.

Marvel has already established that Jean is the Phoenix so I don't know what you're getting at...
The thread starter says no Phoenix...no Phoenix means no Omega Potential(Phoenix Potential), it means all feats involving the manifestation of the Phoenix are out as well...which includes the one in the Onslaught Saga and The UXM 350's

[qoute]That's not a feat. [/quote]

According to you it isn't...Jean being hurt by indirect Psionic energy...

Now I know you're just hating on the Greys. What have the Cuckoos done compared to anything that Rachel has done? Almost nothing is known about them except that two are more students that Emma lost, they've used Cerebra a couple times, made one of the U-Men think he was a bug and tell Jean about Scott's relationship with Emma. Rachel's done to many things to list, with and without the PF. Even as a kid, she managed to shield herself from Xavier's TP while in his face. The Cuckoo's have nothing to even begin to approach that type of power or skill. Besides, they're only really worth anything when they're working together. As each falls, they become weaker...

Warsongs out read it...as for the Cuckoos skill they've been taught lots and lots of tricks and together they have power....Rachel couldn't break through the HC psi-shielding...Emma could....Rachel couldn't even manage to hold the illusion trick Emma taught her...Cuckoos have shown to have no trouble with Emma's tricks...5 minds on the astral plane is better then one..in any event..especially when those minds together have power...

It was after Planet X. You can continue to disagree, but you have no proof that Nova has any experience before her first confrontation with the X-Men.

I still haven't found it...after Planet X is that alternate futurethat gets amputated right? Got the issue number NXM 149ish???
As shown in comics Combat experience has no bearing on the outcome of a astral battle...

You're right...it wasn't an ambush. It was a sneak attack. They weren't expecting it, and they didn't know what she was up to.

Jean see's Nova..she knows Nova is a telepath....Jean goes down...no sneak attack...

And you can't say that the others have more experience because you want them to. Exodus is an established character that has been around for years, and he has a back story that has yet to be fully explored. Nova is Xavier's twin. She shows up in New X-Men. All we know is that her mission was to destroy Xavier. Until someone decides to create a back story for her, that's all there is to go on. The only confrontations we know of were with the X-Men--there's nothing to the contrary. Based on on-panel evidence, Jean's more experienced. But that has little bearing on this confrontation between Jean and Emma.

I think you're exaggerating Pre-retcon Jean...and from what you said about Nova you're underestimating everyone else... 😕
As for the thing about Rachel Grey...??? I mean...the girl has potential but her telepathy is shoddy...very shoddy...

I don't know...5 Cuckoos who actually have skills vs a Powerful TP weilder with little skill

But Rachel is also backed by her telekinesis, which is more skilled than her tp.

Originally posted by eternitygoddess
But Rachel is also backed by her telekinesis, which is more skilled than her tp.

No TK in this thread see the thread starters post...just telepathy...

BTW CF As for the retcon...I believe it can be taken back even further then the Onslaught saga...

Jean joined with the Phoenix for the first time...who made a duplicate of her and placed her in a cacoon...

Phoenix duplicate sacrifices self on moon...Pyor is born with piece of PF memories, life-force, soul etc embedded into her genetic structure...the real Jean is found by the avengers in a cacoon...

Pyor and Jean eventually confront each other...Pyor dies...also killing Jean...however Jean merges with the PF inside of Pyor becoming the Phoenix again...receiving all of Pyors and Phoenixes memories and having a dual persona...Jean also recieves the life-force of the PF etc....that is embedded into her genetic structure...

During Celestial confrontation the personas emerge and are destroyed however the PF is still embedded inside of Jeans genetic structure. Which she demonstrates in an on and off fashion until Morrisons run and Endsong explaining everything.

So infact Pre-retcon Jean is the Jean that emerges from the cacoon before she receives Pyors persona..anything after that would mean she has the PF embedded into her genetic structure...

Also has a phoenixless Jean manifested that raptor and phoenix mark on her face before that Pyor event took place?

The main problem I have with this argument is that you can't erase what exists, and you're trying to combine two different views into one. This retcon that you refer to only returns the characters to the creators original intentions. There's nothing to suggest that the reappearance of the raptor paved the way in any way, shape or form, especially since most of it's appearances with Jean have been pink (sometimes purple or blue), which indicates her unique psi signature. There's nothing to contradict that. When Jean was manifesting the PF, it was stated as such. We saw fire, she began speaking with the voice, etc. None of that was happening in the 90s when she manifested the raptor. It was very clear in NXM that she was Phoenix: Wolverine mentioned it, Scott was withdrawn, and she told Charles that she needed him to tell Scott that she wasn't evil.

You also can't refer to pre-retcon Jean, specifically because there is no such thing. Just because there may be a change in understanding a specific aspect of a character's nature doesn't negate the fact that the character still exists. So if you're going by this idea of "before Jean and Phoenix were synonymous," which is what is seems that you are, then that in facts makes the feats in question to you more reliable, because they were accomplished through her own power. If you take that Jean was always Phoenix, then everything, from the time her powers first manifest on, have a connection, even remotely, to the PF. You can't have it both ways.

Besides, it's been established that it's a genetic ability that Greys are born with. Jean didn't become Phoenix because a fraction saved her from dying during Inferno. It was established that it's genetic and her's by birthright.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
The main problem I have with this argument is that you can't erase what exists, and you're trying to combine two different views into one. This retcon that you refer to only returns the characters to the creators original intentions. There's nothing to suggest that the reappearance of the raptor paved the way in any way, shape or form, especially since most of it's appearances with Jean have been pink (sometimes purple or blue), which indicates her unique psi signature. There's nothing to contradict that. When Jean was manifesting the PF, it was stated as such. We saw fire, she began speaking with the voice, etc. None of that was happening in the 90s when she manifested the raptor. It was very clear in NXM that she was Phoenix: Wolverine mentioned it, Scott was withdrawn, and she told Charles that she needed him to tell Scott that she wasn't evil.

You also can't refer to pre-retcon Jean, specifically because there is no such thing. Just because there may be a change in understanding a specific aspect of a character's nature doesn't negate the fact that the character still exists. So if you're going by this idea of "before Jean and Phoenix were synonymous," which is what is seems that you are, then that in facts makes the feats in question to you more reliable, because they were accomplished through her own power. If you take that Jean was always Phoenix, then everything, from the time her powers first manifest on, have a connection, even remotely, to the PF. You can't have it both ways.

Besides, it's been established that it's a genetic ability that Greys are born with. Jean didn't become Phoenix because a fraction saved her from dying during Inferno. It was established that it's genetic and her's by birthright.

My definition of Pre-retcon was wrong..I admit that...but the thread says no Phoenix...and there was an actual point in time(Real Life time) no matter how far back ...when Jean was not the Phoenix...this is the Jean I'm referring to...she should actually be called Pre-retcons Jean...as there are many retcons...

During inferno...the Phoenix embedded itself in Pyors genetic structure which was past onto Jean....of course now this has all been cleaned up and retconned again....mainly the part where the Phoenix was a seperate entity...and the embedding part...as Jean has always been one with the phoenix...and also the whole Grey/Phoenix genetic thing...

What I'm saying is and this negates what exists...everything past that point where the genetic structure...was embedded into Jean...is removed because she did that with the aid of the Phoenix...if the thread states no Phoenix then everything involving the Phoenix is gone...again before you say it...I know that Jean was born the Phoenix...however we want a Jean without it...and the only Jean we know of is...the one before all the retcons and genetic embedding...

And that is why I said Emma could win against Pre-retcon(s) Jean...I already know that the Current Marvel Jean would beat Emma any day in a telepathic battle....however a Jean who is so crippled in feats and experience and skill and training etc..i.e. the one before the genetic embedding and all those cool upgrades that make her so powerful i.e. the telepathy boost, the 12 year future training etc... should be easily taken down....

Remember the Wonder Women thread...you posted in it...so you must remember...that's when I realized that when a person says Pre-Retcon Jean on KMC forums...it limits her abilities(In other words the amount of feats she's done)...and greatly inhibits her chances of winning a forum battle.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
My definition of Pre-retcon was wrong..I admit that...but the thread says no Phoenix...and there was an actual point in time(Real Life time) no matter how far back ...when Jean was not the Phoenix...this is the Jean I'm referring to...she should actually be called Pre-retcons Jean...as there are many retcons...

During inferno...the Phoenix embedded itself in Pyors genetic structure which was past onto Jean....of course now this has all been cleaned up and retconned again....mainly the part where the Phoenix was a seperate entity...and the embedding part...as Jean has always been one with the phoenix...and also the whole Grey/Phoenix genetic thing...

What I'm saying is and this negates what exists...everything past that point where the genetic structure...was embedded into Jean...is removed because she did that with the aid of the Phoenix...if the thread states no Phoenix then everything involving the Phoenix is gone...again before you say it...I know that Jean was born the Phoenix...however we want a Jean without it...and the only Jean we know of is...the one before all the retcons and genetic embedding...

And that is why I said Emma could win against Pre-retcon(s) Jean...I already know that the Current Marvel Jean would beat Emma any day in a telepathic battle....however a Jean who is so crippled in feats and experience and skill and training etc..i.e. the one before the genetic embedding and all those cool upgrades that make her so powerful i.e. the telepathy boost, the 12 year future training etc... should be easily taken down....

Remember the Wonder Women thread...you posted in it...so you must remember...that's when I realized that when a person says Pre-Retcon Jean on KMC forums...it limits her abilities(In other words the amount of feats she's done)...and greatly inhibits her chances of winning a forum battle.

I understand what you're going for, but it ignores a few things. Even before the old retcon was retconned, there was a very marked distinction between Jean and Phoenix. It doesn't matter if a fraction pulled Jean back from the edge of the grave, because her power signature is primarily pink. Throughout all those years, X-Factor, Gold Team, Revolution, etc, her psi signature was pink. You saw a difference in X-Factor when she blew off Arishem's hand. There you saw a flaming bird, not a pink one. I have no problem accepting Jean drawing on the PF when the signature is fiery, but if it's pink, she's not drawing on the PF. There has not been one time that I've seen where she's truly drawn on the PF and the sig has been pink. When she reassembled Emma, the sig was fiery. A perfect juxtaposition is when the U-Men came to campus. When she first began dealing with them, her sig was pink. As she became more and more pissed, flames began forming around her head, and eventually she manifested a fiery raptor, not a pink one.

That's the thing: just because the potential was there doesn't mean she necessarily drew upon it. Marvel has been very clear about what's Jean and what's Phoenix by the way they identify their psi signatures. It's the same thing with current Rachel. She's the same way that Jean was during Revolution: pink psi signature with the shadow effect over her eye, but not manifesting the flaming raptor. Now I might be willing to concede that that is a point of transition, but it's certainly not Phoenix mode.

It's also interesting to note that Marvel says, and has said for the longest, that Rachel has Jean's abilities as Marvel Girl. Claremont has dumbed Rachel down for some strange reason. It's probably so that Emma can be the TP diva in the X books. You can't (or shouldn't) simply go by feats in Uncanny the past couple years. Rachel was tough, even before she was in touch with the PF. Now granted, when Rachel wielded the Phoenix, she didn't have to rely as much on skill as she does now. She's also had some trouble with her memory, thanks to the Phoenix. If we were to take into account all of Rachel's experience-pre Phoenix, Phoenix, Askani, Marvel Girl-she has pretty much more experience than ANY psi alive on earth (except for maybe Exodus). Claremont gives her the shaft when it comes to her and Emma, but Rachel is in no way, shape or form a pushover. And despite the fact that the Cuckoos have been trained by Emma, I firmly believe that Rachel would stomp them.

I understand what you're saying about the psi-signatures...but hasn't it been shown that Jean only manifests the fiery raptor when using more power then needed...i.e. In life or death situations...or when she's under extreme stress....you can't really say that she never tapped into it when her unlimited TK/TP potential allowed her to do far greater feats than she's ever done...Also you can't really say that the Phoenix signature was seperate from her own especially when it was embedded into her genetic structure...which would mean that her energy signature and the PF signature are one in the same....menaing she's always tapping into it..even to perform low level feats... but under extreme stress she taps into it even more..and then the effects kick in...
My point being is that since it was embedded into her genes....the PF is her energy signature and the raptor only appears under dire situations...

As for Claremont..IMO he hates Emma....but that's for another story...I think the Rachel thing was to show that skill>raw power...

As for the fight...we taking current versions...all 5 cuckoos are alive in Warsong...and we'll remove their PF because it's unfair. Rachel is inexperienced with her TP...she forgot everything...the Cuckoos haven't...I'm not saying it'd be pushover easy but the Cuckoos should take it.

You have numbers...5 equally powerful minds...which helps on the Astral Plane..all five know more tricks then current Rachel...and together they have power...

I understand what you're saying about the psi-signatures...but hasn't it been shown that Jean only manifests the fiery raptor when using more power then needed...i.e. In life or death situations...or when she's under extreme stress....you can't really say that she never tapped into it when her unlimited TK/TP potential allowed her to do far greater feats than she's ever done...Also you can't really say that the Phoenix signature was seperate from her own especially when it was embedded into her genetic structure...which would mean that her energy signature and the PF signature are one in the same....menaing she's always tapping into but under extreme stress she taps into it even more..

As for Claremont..IMO he hates Emma....but that's for another story...I think the Rachel thing was to show that skill>raw power...

That's the thing, though. Rachel had plenty of skill before Claremont got ahold of her again...And doesn't your statement debunk your argument regarding Emma and Phoenix? If Emma is indeed more skilled, she should have been able to walk away from that situation the same way she did with Rachel.

As for the fight...we taking current versions...all 5 cuckoos are alive in Warsong...and we'll remove their PF because it's unfair. Rachel is inexperienced with her TP...she forgot everything...the Cuckoos haven't...I'm not saying it'd be pushover easy but the Cuckoos should take it.

You have numbers...5 equally powerful minds...which helps on the Astral Plane..all five know more tricks then current Rachel...and together they have power...

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
[B]Actually, you can say exactly that, and NXM is a perfect example. When she's moved things like cans or towels or scalpels or whatever, her signature has been pink. When she put Emma back together, when she assembled the spaceship and flew out of the sun, she was on fire. There's a very clear distinction. Besides, her powers are just like anyone else's, or any muscle. The more you use it, the stronger it gets. She said that she'd been pushing herself, practicing, back in UXM, I think. Then when you get to NXM she begins drawing on more and more power, experiencing more, becoming aware of more.

Well then that's what I'm saying...her signature is one in the same...the different colours show how much strain she's putting into using her powers...meaning she's always tapping into it...just on different levels...each time..she has control...as well so she can control how much she taps into it...

That's the thing, though. Rachel had plenty of skill before Claremont got ahold of her again...And doesn't your statement debunk your argument regarding Emma and Phoenix? If Emma is indeed more skilled, she should have been able to walk away from that situation the same way she did with Rachel.

Nope...because I believe Rachel gave up the Phoenix Force....Jean didn't...and what Jean did was kinda outside Psi rules..she was draining the life-force out of Emma by using the Phoenix

I'm not saying you shouldn't use current versions. I'm saying you can't just discount what came before simply because her showings currently aren't necessarily has high as the ones in the past. And there is nothing to suggest that the Cuckoos are more knowledgeable or experienced than Rachel as far as TP is concerned. Rachel's been able to hold her own in the past, and she does ok now. For all of what the Cuckoos supposedly know, we've seen them use very little of it, none of it on the astral plane. Especially if we're going by what was accomplished when all five were alive, the only feat they have is stopping Quentin using Cerebra AND Kick, and he's an omega psi like Rachel.

The Cuckoos were able to do the feat Jean asked them to...Rachel could barely do the feat Emma showed her...

I think you're undestimating them here 😕 ...5 against 1....numbers help on the astral plane...especially when you're fighting a telepath who isn't that experienced....and it's not like they don't have power together...

BTW There's a reason why her showings aren't that high...it's because she forgot a lot of stuff...and KMC rules requires current versions...

Jean wins.

Phoenix crap always makes matches complicated.

Question here when Jean found out what Emma and Scott were doing and confronted her. What part in that did Emma with-held anything from Jean cause all I remember was Emma acting smug AT FIRST then begging Jean to stop. Emma was completely helpless while Jean had enfolded her(Emma) into into her(Jean) own thoughts. It's interesting how some mentioned Emma knows Jean inside and out you'd think she'd have known better than to mess with the phoenix in the sneaky way she did. And seeing as Jean got exactly what she wanted from Emma while basically torturing her seems to me she with-held nothing.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Question here when Jean found out what Emma and Scott were doing and confronted her. What part in that did Emma with-held anything from Jean cause all I remember was Emma acting smug AT FIRST then begging Jean to stop. Emma was completely helpless while Jean had enfolded her(Emma) into into her(Jean) own thoughts. It's interesting how some mentioned Emma knows Jean inside and out you'd think she'd have known better than to mess with the phoenix in the sneaky way she did. And seeing as Jean got exactly what she wanted from Emma while basically torturing her seems to me she with-held nothing.

Phoenix wanted to know about the memory in Hong Kong between Scott and her. Emma cuts Phoenix off from that memory at the end of the issue. It's impressive when you're going up against a COSMIC being.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
[b]Phoenix wanted to know about the memory in Hong Kong between Scott and her. Emma cuts Phoenix off from that memory at the end of the issue. It's impressive when you're going up against a COSMIC being. [/B]

Actually if you re-read some issues back in NXM you'll realize that while Jean was tapping into her phoenix potential. She was NOT a cosmic being she didn't gain that type of power until after Logan and her was hurled towards the sun. She even commented to Logan she didn't have that kind of power yet and their conversation took place after the butt whopping of Miss Dear Frost. She had to die to really become her Phoenix self so don't even attempt to say Emma was going up against a COSMIC being because she was NOT. Its interesting how your re-stating that seeing as you wrote the same comment in the Emma respect thread where no one would disagree.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Actually if you re-read some issues back in NXM you'll realize that while Jean was tapping into her phoenix potential. She was NOT a cosmic being she didn't gain that type of power until after Logan and her was hurled towards the sun. She even commented to Logan she didn't have that kind of power yet and their conversation took place after the butt whopping of Miss Dear Frost. She had to die to really become her Phoenix self so don't even attempt to say Emma was going up against a COSMIC being because she was NOT. Its interesting how your re-stating that seeing as you wrote the same comment in the Emma respect thread where no one would disagree.

She was tapping into cosmic reserves it was stated in the issue and in her conversation with Xavier. It was shown through out NXM before that issue, it was shown during her encounter with Bishop. Wrong actually, if that was the case Xorn wouldn't have killed her and shattered the Phoenix Force so easily.

What you don't understand is that the Phoenix's power increases exponentially as she wields it.(See the Dark Phoenix Saga)
She was tapping into cosmic reserves before being sent into the sun. She was tapping into MORE cosmic reserves after being sent into the sun. And she was tapping into even more cosmic reserves after coming back from the dead the 3rd time in Here Comes Tommorrow.

She's was tapping into cosmic reserves throughout Morrisons entire run that's how Morrison explained Jeans TK returning as well. As each issue went by she tapped into it more and more.

Furthermore Morrison even stated that Jean was tapping into the Phoenix Force in that Wizard Special interview of his during her encounter with Emma.

And since you love Endsong so much lets look at the Phoenix Force...remember that line what is a fraction of infinite? Infinite. Which still makes that a very impressive feat.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
She was tapping into cosmic reserves it was stated in the issue and in her conversation with Xavier. It was shown through out NXM before that issue, it was shown during her encounter with Bishop. Wrong actually, if that was the case Xorn wouldn't have killed her and shattered the Phoenix Force so easily.

What you don't understand is that the Phoenix's power increases exponentially as she wields it.(See the Dark Phoenix Saga)
She was tapping into cosmic reserves before being sent into the sun. She was tapping into MORE cosmic reserves after being sent into the sun. And she was tapping into even more cosmic reserves after coming back from the dead the 3rd time in Here Comes Tommorrow.

She's was tapping into cosmic reserves throughout Morrisons entire run that's how Morrison explained Jeans TK returning as well. As each issue went by she tapped into it more and more.

Furthermore Morrison even stated that Jean was tapping into the Phoenix Force in that Wizard Special interview of his during her encounter with Emma.

And since you love Endsong so much lets look at the Phoenix Force...remember that line what is a fraction of infinite? Infinite. Which still makes that a very impressive feat.

But as I stated before she was NOT a COSMIC BEING when she fought or should I say beat Emma what part of that don't you understand your trying to say just because she was tapping into her Phoenix potential she had become a cosmic being which makes no sense don't try to use the fact that she was tapping into her phoenix potential as a basis for her actually being a cosmic being. When Jean said she couldn't use that type of power yet only through DEATH can she really use that sort of power your trick would work I didn't already know about the phoenix answer me this if Jean was a COSMIC being why did she have to die(which is the natural progression of phoenix) to save herself and Wolverine. Oh and tapping into her Phoenix potential and actually being Phoenix are two different things. I was not disputing what you mentioned above but what you need to learn to differienate between Phoenix a cosmic being and Jean tapping into her phoenix potential. One other important detail you left out in YOUR explaination was that Jean had to die first to gain a bolt load of more power. Its funny that you think Emma went up against an angry COSMIC BEING as you say and was able to keep a memory from her one that she got anyways while torturing her your right very impressive feat.

Oh and if you really think I'm wrong ask anyone who's read that little cat-fight between Emma and Jean. If at the time was Jean a COSMIC BEING she what they'll tell ya. Better yet I'll make a thread about it.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
But as I stated before she was NOT a COSMIC BEING when she fought or should I say beat Emma what part of that don't you understand your trying to say just because she was tapping into her Phoenix potential she had become a cosmic being which makes no sense don't try to use the fact that she was tapping into her phoenix potential as a basis for her actually being a cosmic being. When Jean said she couldn't use that type of power yet only through DEATH can she really use that sort of power your trick would work I didn't already know about the phoenix answer me this if Jean was a COSMIC being why did she have to die(which is the natural progression of phoenix) to save herself and Wolverine. Oh and tapping into her Phoenix potential and actually being Phoenix are two different things. I was not disputing what you mentioned above but what you need to learn to differienate between Phoenix a cosmic being and Jean tapping into her phoenix potential. One other important detail you left out in YOUR explaination was that Jean had to die first to gain a bolt load of more power. Its funny that you think Emma went up against an angry COSMIC BEING as you say and was able to keep a memory from her one that she got anyways while torturing her your right very impressive feat.

You did not get Grant Morrisons X-Men at all did you? All those comments about her "Not being human" at the beginning of the arc?" Her Telekinesis returning etc...

She was tapping into cosmic reserves that makes her a cosmic being, she was just tapping into more and more reserves as the arc went on. Surfer taps into the power cosmic that makes him a cosmic being.

Do you even understand what Grant Morrison meant by Phoenix Potential? That is the potential to Host the Phoenix...it's Jean's mutation to be able to host the Phoenix Force it's written into her genes. Just like it's Rachels and the entire Grey Family. Jean is the Host the Force is most attached to.(Well that's what it was until Brubaker and Claremont both gave contradicting stories about the PF)

Jean tapping into cosmic reserves which you even admit makes her a cosmic being. Jean channeling the Phoenix consciousness makes her a cosmic being. Rachel was still considered a cosmic being when she hosted the Force and it limited it's power to the extent wheres Thor could punk her.

Your reasoning is moot, Jean had to die TWICE in Morrions run. If that was the case why did she have to die against Xorn. Which is AFTER being hurled into the sun. She was cosmic throughout his run, at the beginning her telekinesis came back stronger then ever, she slowly started tapping into it more on more until she was channeling a fire effect and the Phoenix Consciousness. She forsaw the destruction of 616 thanks to Sublime. Oh and do realize that the Cosmic Being Phoenix you're talking about died of a heart attack. Why did she have to die? She had to die to increase her power level, she also had to die against Xorn as well and this time he shattered the Force into a billion pieces prolonging her return.

Jean was a cosmic being throughout the entire run of Morrisons as she was tapping into it's reserves throughout his run. She was channeling the Phoenix Consciousness throughout his run.

Your point is ridiculous, you're trying to argue about semantics here, Jean was more powerful when she died the first time in Morrisons run, she was even more powerful when she died the second time in Morrisons run. Doesn't mean she wasn't cosmic before dying as she was channeling both the Phoenix Consciousness and Tapping into Cosmic Reserves of Energy.

It's not that funny, I never said she'd beat Phoenix I said it was impressive given the fact that Jean is a cosmic being channeling Cosmic Reserves. And yes it's very impressive that she halted for whatever minute fraction of time that was it's very impressive.

Oh and if you find that hard to believe Morrison said that Xavier would beat Phoenix Force Jean in that very same interview.

Oh and funny enough the reason why she had to die before was in the issue you were quoting from on that very same page. Jean had to die because the Phoenix burns away what doesn't work...NXM #148. She tells Logan:

"The Phoenix isn't like that Logan...it's more like...it burns away what doesn't work. It eats planets and stars and if I get to close it replaces me."

Then Logan asks why would it allow her to be killed and she says maybe it's judging her too. She also says that she can't find the Phoenix any where now.(Which explains why she couldn't fly through space, it abandoned her, she needed to die there because she was defective.)

Logan Kills her and the Phoenix consciousness is permanently released. (NXM #150)

She had to die because she wasn't doing her job, she was becoming to attached to the world. So again she was a cosmic being before that, when the consciousness was whispering to her all the time and she was tapping into cosmic reserves. And she was a cosmic being after that once she wasn't doing what she was supposed to do and the consciousness had to take over. (The consciouness is the black speech bubble with white font by the way. Which if you noticed appeared through out Morrisons run and allowed her to pull off certain power feats.)

She needed to die the second time because the Universe needed fixing.

Oh and she didn't get the memory in the end from Emma, Emma blocked her. She had to get it from Scott. (Stop looking at the pretty pictures and read some of the text.)