Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Oh and funny enough the reason why she had to die before was in the issue you were quoting from on that very same page. Jean had to die because the Phoenix burns away what doesn't work...NXM #148. She tells Logan:"The Phoenix isn't like that Logan...it's more like...it burns away what doesn't work. It eats planets and stars and if I get to close it replaces me."
Then Logan asks why would it allow her to be killed and she says maybe it's judging her too. She also says that she can't find the Phoenix any where now.(Which explains why she couldn't fly through space, it abandoned her, she needed to die there because she was defective.)
Logan Kills her and the Phoenix consciousness is permanently released. (NXM #150)
She had to die because she wasn't doing her job, she was becoming to attached to the world. So again she was a cosmic being before that, when the consciousness was whispering to her all the time and she was tapping into cosmic reserves. And she was a cosmic being after that once she wasn't doing what she was supposed to do and the consciousness had to take over. (The consciouness is the black speech bubble with white font by the way. Which if you noticed appeared through out Morrisons run and allowed her to pull off certain power feats.)
She needed to die the second time because the Universe needed fixing.
Oh and she didn't get the memory in the end from Emma, Emma blocked her. She had to get it from Scott. (Stop looking at the pretty pictures and read some of the text.)
You know what you win because for some reason you either think Jean as a cosmic being whom was pissed with Emma isn't that skilled or Emma's just that good do you know how ridiculous you sound by saying Emma took on a pissed Cosmic being Jean and was able to keep a memory from her even though she was being tortured along the way you believe what you want I'm through trying to explain to you your right Emma fought Cosmic Being Jean and with-held a memory from her you happy now maybe you want a cookie. Oh and by the way what second time did Jean die because I thought but maybe I'm wrong she ascended into the WHR. And that nonsense about her not doing her job is your assumption a wrong one I might add maybe you should try re-reading the comics because as Jean has stated before she must die first to become a phoenix.
Originally posted by celestialbodies
You know what you win because for some reason you either think Jean as a cosmic being whom was pissed with Emma isn't that skilled or Emma's just that good do you know how ridiculous you sound by saying Emma took on a pissed Cosmic being Jean and was able to keep a memory from her even though she was being tortured along the way you believe what you want I'm through trying to explain to you your right Emma fought Cosmic Being Jean and with-held a memory from her you happy now maybe you want a cookie.
You have no argument therefore whine whine whine all you want. It doesn't change the fact that it happened and you didn't even realize it and it yes it's impressive. It's not the first time she's done something like this. Emma managed to mask herself from Xavier and Green Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #131 after she escaped, they both thought she died in the explosion she caused with her psi-bolt.
Oh and by the way what second time did Jean die because I thought but maybe I'm wrong she ascended into the WHR.
When Xorn killed here. Do you know what the WHR is it's where the dead go in the X-Universe. It was explained to Jean in Classic X-Men. And in the What if Vulcan was Phoenix. And Kid Omega also went there.
And that nonsense about her not doing her job is your assumption a wrong one I might add maybe you should try re-reading the comics because as Jean has stated before she must die first to become a phoenix. [/B]
Not my assumption, that was the whole storyline for Jean in Morrisons X-Men. The more Jean tapped into the cosmic reserves the more she lost her humanity she had to give it all up in order to save her friends she had to water the world with her hearts blood and let go the irony in it all is that what she did was display the best humanity had to offer. It's in Here Comes Tommorrow.
She became to attached she finally lets go there and it's in NXM where Jean explains to Wolverine why the Phoenix would allow her to die and how and why it would replace her. And as I mentioned before Jean also states that she can't find the Phoenix anywhere and that it might also be testing her.
It's also in that very same issue, she starts wondering about Scott. Scott is why she's so attached to this world.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You did not get Grant Morrisons X-Men at all did you? All those comments about her "Not being human" at the beginning of the arc?" Her Telekinesis returning etc...She was tapping into cosmic reserves that makes her a cosmic being, she was just tapping into more and more reserves as the arc went on. Surfer taps into the power cosmic that makes him a cosmic being.
Do you even understand what Grant Morrison meant by Phoenix Potential? That is the potential to [b]Host
the Phoenix...it's Jean's mutation to be able to host the Phoenix Force it's written into her genes. Just like it's Rachels and the entire Grey Family. Jean is the Host the Force is most attached to.(Well that's what it was until Brubaker and Claremont both gave contradicting stories about the PF)Jean tapping into cosmic reserves which you even admit makes her a cosmic being. Jean channeling the Phoenix consciousness makes her a cosmic being. Rachel was still considered a cosmic being when she hosted the Force and it limited it's power to the extent wheres Thor could punk her.
Your reasoning is moot, Jean had to die TWICE in Morrions run. If that was the case why did she have to die against Xorn. Which is AFTER being hurled into the sun. She was cosmic throughout his run, at the beginning her telekinesis came back stronger then ever, she slowly started tapping into it more on more until she was channeling a fire effect and the Phoenix Consciousness. She forsaw the destruction of 616 thanks to Sublime. Oh and do realize that the Cosmic Being Phoenix you're talking about died of a heart attack. Why did she have to die? She had to die to increase her power level, she also had to die against Xorn as well and this time he shattered the Force into a billion pieces prolonging her return.
Jean was a cosmic being throughout the entire run of Morrisons as she was tapping into it's reserves throughout his run. She was channeling the Phoenix Consciousness throughout his run.
Your point is ridiculous, you're trying to argue about semantics here, Jean was more powerful when she died the first time in Morrisons run, she was even more powerful when she died the second time in Morrisons run. Doesn't mean she wasn't cosmic before dying as she was channeling both the Phoenix Consciousness and Tapping into Cosmic Reserves of Energy.
It's not that funny, I never said she'd beat Phoenix I said it was impressive given the fact that Jean is a cosmic being channeling Cosmic Reserves. And yes it's very impressive that she halted for whatever minute fraction of time that was it's very impressive.
Oh and if you find that hard to believe Morrison said that Xavier would beat Phoenix Force Jean in that very same interview. [/B]
One other thing, then I'm through I've read some posts of yours and I'm just asking which version of Jean are you implying versus Emma. Because please tell me that your love for Emma is not so great that you'd cripple Jean in order for others to admit Emma would win. Because in the debate between Cosmic flame and you, you said something along the lines of "And that is why I said Emma could win against Pre-retcon(s) Jean...I already know that the Current Marvel Jean would beat Emma any day in a telepathic battle....however a Jean who is so crippled in feats and experience and skill and training etc..i.e. the one before the genetic embedding and all those cool upgrades that make her so powerful i.e. the telepathy boost, the 12 year future training etc... should be easily taken down.... why would you say that sounds like spite to me but again just my opinion.
Originally posted by celestialbodies
One other thing, then I'm through I've read some posts of yours and I'm just asking which version of Jean are you implying versus Emma. Because please tell me that your love for Emma is not so great that you'd cripple Jean in order for others to admit Emma would win. Because in the debate between Cosmic flame and you, you said something along the lines of "And that is why I said Emma could win against Pre-retcon(s) Jean...I already know that the Current Marvel Jean would beat Emma any day in a telepathic battle....however a Jean who is so crippled in feats and experience and skill and training etc..i.e. the one before the genetic embedding and all those cool upgrades that make her so powerful i.e. the telepathy boost, the 12 year future training etc... should be easily taken down.... why would you say that sounds like spite to me but again just my opinion.
Any Jean who is not tapping into the Phoenix Force would be taken down by Emma Frost.
Jean isn't used on these boards much because her power history is more convoluted then Psylockes. And the majority of posters on this board go by feats. Jean sans Phoenix is a death trap for anyone on these boards as she lacks feats.
Pre-retcon Jean as in the one who got taken down by Exodus in the Fall of Avalon and who at the time had no attachement to the Phoenix until the retcon would be taken down by Emma.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You have no argument therefore whine whine whine all you want. It doesn't change the fact that it happened and you didn't even realize it and it yes it's impressive. It's not the first time she's done something like this. Emma managed to mask herself from Xavier and Green Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #131 after she escaped, they both thought she died in the explosion she caused with her psi-bolt.When Xorn killed here. Do you know what the WHR is it's where the dead go in the X-Universe. It was explained to Jean in Classic X-Men. And in the What if Vulcan was Phoenix. And Kid Omega also went there.
Not my assumption, that was the whole storyline for Jean in Morrisons X-Men. The more Jean tapped into the cosmic reserves the more she lost her humanity she had to give it all up in order to save her friends she had to water the world with her hearts blood and let go the irony in it all is that what she did was display the best humanity had to offer. It's in Here Comes Tommorrow.
She became to attached she finally lets go there and it's in NXM where Jean explains to Wolverine why the Phoenix would allow her to die and how and why it would replace her. And as I mentioned before Jean also states that she can't find the Phoenix anywhere and that it might also be testing her.
It's also in that very same issue, she starts wondering about Scott. Scott is why she's so attached to this world.
Whine about what your the one so in love with Miss Frost (who by the way I have no problem with). To think she took on a Cosmic Being and withheld a memory, well by your logic good for her. And actually the dead in the X-Universe do not go to the WHR only those with Phoenix potential or those chosen such as those dark phoenix murdered where brought there. And I think a couple of others but certainly not all the dead in the X-universe. And technically they aren't dead their beyond death, time, and space.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Any Jean who is not tapping into the Phoenix Force would be taken down by Emma Frost.Jean isn't used on these boards much because her power history is more convoluted then Psylockes. And the majority of posters on this board go by feats. Jean sans Phoenix is a death trap for anyone on these boards as she lacks feats.
Pre-retcon Jean as in the one who got taken down by Exodus in the Fall of Avalon and who at the time had no attachement to the Phoenix until the retcon would be taken down by Emma.
So why use that version of Jean(comment not directed at you just saying). I have no problem with admitting a crippled Jean or should I say a w/o any experience and training would lose against Emma I mean how could she win.
Originally posted by celestialbodies
So why use that version of Jean(comment not directed at you just saying). I have no problem with admitting a crippled Jean or should I say a w/o any experience and training would lose against Emma I mean how could she win.
I'm not talking about a Jean and lack of experience, I remember that Bloodties occured in the UXM #300's and the Fall of Avalon which took place in X-Men v2 some what after that...that Jean would lose IMO before the re-retcon.
Because a Jean that could tap into the PF would wipe the flaw with most characters.
That's why Jean threads don't work. I did not create this thread btw.
Originally posted by celestialbodies
Whine about what your the one so in love with Miss Frost (who by the way I have no problem with). To think she took on a Cosmic Being and withheld a memory, well by your logic good for her. And actually the dead in the X-Universe do not go to the WHR only those with Phoenix potential or those chosen such as those dark phoenix murdered where brought there. And I think a couple of others but certainly not all the dead in the X-universe. And technically they aren't dead their beyond death, time, and space.
I'm not going to argue about what happened on panel in NXM #139 it's clear as day what happened.
The abstract Death Explained it to Jean in Classic X-Men that the WHR is place where the dead go. It has a dual function it acts a hospital and an afterlife for souls. Jean went there the first time she died. Kid Omega who was clinically dead went there as well in Morrisons run.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm not talking about a Jean and lack of experience, I remember that Bloodties occuring in the UXM #300's...that Jean would lose IMO before the re-retcon.Because a Jean that could tap into the PF would wipe the flaw with most characters.
That's why Jean threads don't work. I did not create this thread btw.
I'm not going to argue about what happened on panel in UXM #139 it's clear as day what happened.
The abstract Death Explained it to Jean in Classic X-Men that the WHR is place where the dead go. Kid Omega who was clinically dead went there as well in Morrisons run.
I get what your talking about concerning which Jean even though i think she'd still win it's just my opinion. Just as you think Emma would win but to be honest when Jean does come back I kinda wish she'd comeback w/o the Phoenix only because they tend to kill her off. But to have Jean and Emma in a training session would be kinda cool.
Originally posted by celestialbodies
I get what your talking about concerning which Jean even though i think she'd still win it's just my opinion. Just as you think Emma would win but to be honest when Jean does come back I kinda wish she'd comeback w/o the Phoenix only because they tend to kill her off. But to have Jean and Emma in a training session would be kinda cool.
I'll scan the Death scans for you if you want. Although I think it's in the PF respect thread.