Jesus...the Creator?

Started by Justbyfaith4 pages

Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by peejayd
* common misinterpretation...

"For in him were all things created , in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him , and unto him;
and he is before all things, and in him all things consist."
Colossians 1:16-17

* all things are created through Christ and in Christ...

"Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things , and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things , and we through him."
I Corinthians 8:6

* it was the Father who created all things, and upon creation, all things are created through Christ...

"All things were made through him ; and without him was not anything made that hath been made."
John 1:3

* see?

"The God that made the world and all things therein , he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"
The Acts 17:24

* the Father is the Creator of all things... 😉

"Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed ."
John 20:28-29

* seems appropriate... 😛

Good point, but all the same when we have a trinitarian God.

Jesus said, "I and My Father are one."

John 10:30

Philip said to him, "Show us the Father and it is sufficient for us".

And Jesus said to Him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not KNOW ME, Philip? he who has seen me HAS SEEN THE FATHER; so how can you say, Show us the Father?"

John 14:8-9

Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Good point, but all the same when we have a trinitarian God.

Jesus said, "I and My Father are one."
John 10:30

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" (John 17:20–21).

So by the same logic, anyone that believes on Christ through the apostles word is God, literally and in the same way that Christ and God the Father are.

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Philip said to him, "Show us the Father and it is sufficient for us".

And Jesus said to Him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not KNOW ME, Philip? he who has seen me HAS SEEN THE FATHER; so how can you say, Show us the Father?"

John 14:8-9

"And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." (Acts 7:56)

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Cor. 4:4)

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philip 2:5-6)

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" (Hebrews 1:2-3)

It seems that Christ was seen on the right hand of God, not as God in a single entity. It also states that Christ was the image of God.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Genesis 1:27)

Are we to say that we are God, since this verse states that Man is also the image of God?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Regret
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" (John 17:20–21).

So by the same logic, anyone that believes on Christ through the apostles word is God, literally and in the same way that Christ and God the Father are.

"And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." (Acts 7:56)

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Cor. 4:4)

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philip 2:5-6)

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" (Hebrews 1:2-3)

It seems that Christ was seen on the right hand of God, not as God in a single entity. It also states that Christ was the image of God.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Genesis 1:27)

Are we to say that we are God, since this verse states that Man is also the image of God?

Oh 🙁 Regret you were doing so good until you finished with that last question. I know where your going with this one.... 😎 😕

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Regret

Are we to say that we are God, since this verse states that Man is also the image of God? [/B]

No, we are not to say that we are God or can become God. This was the first and greatest deception:

Then the serpent (Satan) said to the woman, "You will not surey die.
For God knows that in the day that you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Genesis 3:4-5
😕

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
No, we are not to say that we are God or can become God. This was the first and greatest deception:

Then the serpent (Satan) said to the woman, "You will not surey die.
For God knows that in the day that you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Genesis 3:4-5
😕

Was it a deception? If Adam and Eve did not know good and evil before they ate the fruit, then they did become like God, and knew good and evil. Temptation doesn't have to be a lie to get men to do evil. The sin wasn't in wanting to be like God, the sin was in doing what God had told them not to do.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Good point, but all the same when we have a trinitarian God.

Jesus said, "I and My Father are one."

John 10:30

* one in what?

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are ."
John 17:11

* united as one... here's another point...

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God ."
John 10:33

* They are one because the Father is God, and Christ as His Son, is also a God... 😉

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Philip said to him, "Show us the Father and it is sufficient for us".

And Jesus said to Him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not KNOW ME, Philip? he who has seen me HAS SEEN THE FATHER; so how can you say, Show us the Father?"

John 14:8-9

* "... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father...", yes...

"Who is the image of the invisible God , the firstborn of every creature:"
Colossians 1:15

* Christ is the image of the invisible God... because no human being can see God...

"No man hath seen God at any time ; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
John 1:18

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see : to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
I Timothy 6:16

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live ."
Exodus 33:20

* being that, it completely destroys the Trinitarian doctrine...

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I ."
John 14:28

* Christ said, the Father is greater than Him... 😉

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by peejayd

* They are one because the Father is God, and Christ as His Son, is also a God... 😉

So the Father is a God and His Son Christ is another God? Is this a typo peejayd? 😱

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Regret
Was it a deception? If Adam and Eve did not know good and evil before they ate the fruit, then they did become like God, and knew good and evil. Temptation doesn't have to be a lie to get men to do evil. The sin wasn't in wanting to be like God, the sin was in doing what God had told them not to do.
How is one to know what is not right?

Does one kill their children and all of there children's children for eternity because of one child's disobedience...........I seems people are more compassionate than god....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Regret
Was it a deception? If Adam and Eve did not know good and evil before they ate the fruit, then they did become like God, and knew good and evil. Temptation doesn't have to be a lie to get men to do evil. The sin wasn't in wanting to be like God, the sin was in doing what God had told them not to do.

So where are you going here? If you are saying they are "gods" then I will get back to you in a day or two. Is that what your saying here?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
So where are you going here? If you are saying they are "gods" then I will get back to you in a day or two. Is that what your saying here?

No, but like God they knew good and evil after eating of the fruit. The serpent did not lie, nor did he deceive. He tempted. He told eve the truths about eating the fruit that would cause her to take it. They did not surely die at the point of eating the fruit, they died later due to the change the fruit caused. They did not become Gods, but the did become like God knowing good from evil.

Your statement on the Trinity using the verse:

Jesus said, "I and My Father are one."
John 10:30

Made man a God. If this verse makes Christ God, in the Trinity defined as: a singular entity with differing manifestations, then this verse

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" (John 17:20–21).

Imparts the same status to man.

You stated that man could become God by using John 10:30 to support the Christ as God argument. Both are Christ speaking, and the second says that as Christ and God are one, so shall believers be one.

So either John 10:30 does not support the Trinity in the sense you mean, or followers of Christ are as much a member of the Trinity as Christ, and thus as much possibility of being God as Christ.

I did not say, and did not lead to a God maker debate. I attacked your view of the Trinity. In particular I attacked the use of "Christ and God are one" support for singular entity Trinity beliefs.

My belief is that the use of the "Christ and God are one" statements are referring to one in purpose, not one in being or essence.

w00t WOOT CLONES! w00t

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
So the Father is a God and His Son Christ is another God? Is this a typo peejayd? 😱

* nope... the Only Begotten Son of God is a God... it would be somewhat ridiculous for a God to have a human as an offspring... the offspring of a God is also a God; the offspring of a human is also a human; the offspring of an animal is also an animal... am i right? 🙂

then how come when a god and a mortal get together...their offspring is a mortal.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Regret
No, but like God they knew good and evil after eating of the fruit. The serpent did not lie, nor did he deceive. He tempted. He told eve the truths about eating the fruit that would cause her to take it. They did not surely die at the point of eating the fruit, they died later due to the change the fruit caused. They did not become Gods, but the did become like God knowing good from evil.

Your statement on the Trinity using the verse:

Jesus said, "I and My Father are one."
John 10:30

Made man a God. If this verse makes Christ God, in the Trinity defined as: a singular entity with differing manifestations, then this verse

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" (John 17:20–21).

Imparts the same status to man.

You stated that man could become God by using John 10:30 to support the Christ as God argument. Both are Christ speaking, and the second says that as Christ and God are one, so shall believers be one.

So either John 10:30 does not support the Trinity in the sense you mean, or followers of Christ are as much a member of the Trinity as Christ, and thus as much possibility of being God as Christ.

I did not say, and did not lead to a God maker debate. I attacked your view of the Trinity. In particular I attacked the use of "Christ and God are one" support for singular entity Trinity beliefs.

My belief is that the use of the "Christ and God are one" statements are referring to one in purpose, not one in being or essence.

So Jesus isn't God? Hello 😱 is anybody out there? 😮

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
So Jesus isn't God? Hello 😱 is anybody out there? 😮

Christ is God. Christ is not God the father. God the Father is not Christ.

If Christ is God the Father then he was, at best misleading when he taught about the Father, at worst he was lying. I do not believe be was either. Thus Christ and God the Father are not a single entity, but two distinct beings. What, in the Bible, suggests otherwise?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Regret
Christ is God. Christ is not God the father. God the Father is not Christ.

If Christ is God the Father then he was, at best misleading when he taught about the Father, at worst he was lying. I do not believe be was either. Thus Christ and God the Father are not a single entity, but two distinct beings. (What, in the Bible, suggests otherwise?)

Jesus said, " Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me Philip? (He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father?"😉

John 14:9

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called, Wonderful, Councelor, (Mighty God), (Everlasting Father), Prince of Peace."

Isaiah 9:6-7

Any questions?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Jesus said, " Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me Philip? (He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father?"😉

John 14:9

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called, Wonderful, Councelor, (Mighty God), (Everlasting Father), Prince of Peace."

Isaiah 9:6-7

Any questions?

Delbert L. Stapley, “Easter Thoughts,” Ensign, May 1976, 76

Paul declared to the Corinthian saints that Christ is “the image of God” (2 Cor. 4:4), and to the Hebrews that Christ is “the express image of [God’s] person.” (Heb. 1:3.) It is logical for the Only Begotten Son of the Eternal God to be in “the express image of his [Father’s] person.” Like produces like, and any earthly son we know—and the earthly is typical of the heavenly—is in the image of his father. It is true in mortal life that some sons are in the express image of their father’s person.

Now Jesus said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.” (John 5:19.) Also: “As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.” (John 8:28.) Here Christ informs us that he was following the example and teachings of his Father and the works which the Father had performed previously in his own experience, which proves both Father and Son possess like individual characteristics, attributes, and powers.

When Thomas asked the Lord, “How can we know the way?” Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:5–6.) “For there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved,” declared the apostle Peter to the rulers, elders, and scribes of the Jewish factions. (Acts 4:12.) As Jesus walked in Solomon’s porch, the Jews came to him and solemnly asked, “If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, saying, “The works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.” (John 10:23–25.)

“The Father and the Son,” Ensign, Apr. 2002, 13

God is not the Father of the earth as one of the worlds in space, nor of the heavenly bodies in whole or in part, not of the inanimate objects and the plants and the animals upon the earth, in the literal sense in which He is the Father of the spirits of mankind. Therefore, scriptures that refer to God in any way as the Father of the heavens and the earth are to be understood as signifying that God is the Maker, the Organizer, the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

With this meaning, as the context shows in every case, Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ the Son of Elohim, is called “the Father.” With analogous meaning Jesus Christ is called “The Everlasting Father” (Isa. 9:6). The descriptive titles “Everlasting” and “Eternal” in texts are synonymous.

“The Father and the Son,” Ensign, Apr. 2002, 13

Another sense in which Jesus Christ is regarded as the “Father” has reference to the relationship between Him and those who accept His gospel and thereby become heirs of eternal life. Following are a few of the scriptures illustrating this meaning.

In fervent prayer offered just prior to His entrance into Gethsemane, Jesus Christ supplicated His Father in behalf of those whom the Father had given unto Him, specifically the Apostles, and, more generally, all who would accept and abide in the gospel through the ministry of the Apostles. Read in our Lord’s own words the solemn affirmation that those for whom He particularly prayed were His own, and that His Father had given them unto Him:

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

“Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

“And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:6–12).

And further:

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

“Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:20–24).

....

In tragic contrast with the blessed state of those who become children of God through obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ is that of the unregenerate, who are specifically called the children of the devil. Note the words of Christ, while in the flesh, to certain wicked Jews who boasted of their Abrahamic lineage: “If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. … Ye do the deeds of your father. … If God were your Father, ye would love me. … Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8:39, 41–42, 44). Thus Satan is designated as the father of the wicked, though we cannot assume any personal relationship of parent and children as existing between him and them. A combined illustration showing that the righteous are the children of God and the wicked the children of the devil appears in the parable of the tares: “The good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one” (Matt. 13:38).

Men may become children of Jesus Christ by being born anew—born of God, as the inspired word states:

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother” (1 Jn. 3:8–10).

“The Father and the Son,” Ensign, Apr. 2002, 13

We read, by way of analogy, that God placed His name upon or in the angel who was assigned to special ministry unto the people of Israel during the exodus. Of that angel the Lord said, “Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him” (Ex. 23:21).

The ancient Apostle John was visited by an angel who ministered and spoke in the name of Jesus Christ. As we read, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John” (Rev. 1:1). John was about to worship the angelic being who spoke in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but was forbidden:

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

“Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not; for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God” (Rev. 22:8–9).

And then the angel continued to speak as though he were the Lord Himself:

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (Rev. 22:12–13).

The resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ, who had been exalted to the right hand of God His Father, had placed His name upon the angel sent to John, and the angel spoke in the first person, saying, “I come quickly,” “I am Alpha and Omega,” though he meant that Jesus Christ would come and that Jesus Christ was Alpha and Omega.

None of these considerations, however, can change in the least degree the solemn fact of the literal relationship of Father and Son between Elohim and Jesus Christ. Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors. Following are affirmative scriptures bearing upon this great truth. Paul, writing to the Colossians, says of Jesus Christ:

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

“And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell” (Col. 1:15–19).

From this scripture we learn that Jesus Christ was “the firstborn of every creature,” and it is evident that the seniority here expressed must be with respect to antemortal existence, for Christ was not the senior of all mortals in the flesh. He is further designated as “the firstborn from the dead,” this having reference to Him as the first to be resurrected from the dead, or as elsewhere written “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20; see also 1 Cor. 15:23); and “the first begotten of the dead” (Rev. 1:5; compare Acts 26:23). The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews affirms the status of Jesus Christ as the firstborn of the spirit children of His Father and extols the preeminence of the Christ when tabernacled in flesh: “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Heb. 1:6; read the preceding verses). That the spirits who were juniors to Christ were predestined to be born in the image of their Elder Brother is thus attested by Paul:

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:28–29).

Sorry about the length of those two. I am not knowldegable to properly rebut, as such I have quoted a response to your references.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus...the Creator?

Originally posted by Alliance
then how come when a god and a mortal get together...their offspring is a mortal.

* Biblically, there are no instance such as you stated... in Greek/Roman myth, yes but they are called demi-gods, right?

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Jesus said, " Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me Philip? (He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father?"😉

John 14:9

* it is because Christ is the image of God, i've given the verses... also, a bunch of verses was given by mr.regret... 😉

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called, Wonderful, Councelor, (Mighty God), (Everlasting Father), Prince of Peace."

Isaiah 9:6-7

Any questions?

* Christ is a Mighty God and an Everlasting Father, but that does not mean Christ is also the Father... it would imply that the Father is also Christ...

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning ."
James 1:17

* the Father cannot change, and guess what? Christ changed! John 1:14 says the Word was manifested in the flesh...

"While we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ ,"
Titus 2:13

"Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:"
II Peter 1:1

* Saint Paul and Saint Peter addressed Christ as our God and Savior...

"But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting ."
Micah 5:2

"I was set up from everlasting , from the beginning, Before the earth was."
Proverbs 8:23

* Christ was from everlasting...

* and Christ's father figure was depicted here:

"Jesus therefore saith unto them, Children , have ye aught to eat? They answered him, No."
John 21:5

* so, the prophecy of Isaiah was really fulfilled by Christ... every single bit of prophecies concerning Christ... 😉